Nitrous on a 5S Options

[94celicadude]

Hello all,

Its been a while since I have posted anything up... got both of my girls running like dreams and of course the projects just keep coming on.

I finally got the 7A sorted out, basically ended up rebuilding it a second time because of crappy piston rings from the shop that put the short block together... and after two bolts fell out of my shift forks, i finally got her back up and driving again... now just have to put the new S-AFCII back in it after the original was stolen... oh and get a tune.... damn i guess i really had some **** happen to me lol

Oh well anyways... this topic is about my GT Hatch.


Over the summer I ordered a set of Webcams 294 regrinds... installed them and I absolutely LOVE them! I really should have made a post about the installation and the results after tuning.

Basically... the cams bumped me up to 132 WHP.. and i forgot the torque #... sorry I would post the dyno chart but I am in Spain studying abroad and dont have it with me.

Well to get to my real question, I bought a Zex Wet Nitrous kit for my car.. and have not yet installed it considering my motor has 245K miles on it. So i am going to rebuild the motor, do some NA mods to it as the same time... Extrude Hone and such... and then i would love to hook up this nitrous kit.

My questions are... has anybody ever put a nitrous kit on the 5S?

Can the 5S take a 75 wet shot? (After a rebuild of course)

Has anybody had any bad experiences putting nitrous on the 5S?


I hope to get some feedback, positive or negative. I am doing this in order to make sure that i dont cost myself a second motor rebuild againlol

Hope to hear from all of you.

Thanks
Matt

PS I figured id post up a few pics of the car as she sits now... just for fun





This post has been edited by 94celicadude: Nov 9, 2009 - 11:17 AM

[Mstoochn]

talk to ping (PR3M4TUR3D3T0N4T1ON) or matt (DEATH.). if they are still alive, they shot a 5s-fe in a celica as well as a camry. although i dont think it went well.

[freddy121389]

I've talked to matt about this before, he said it worked great but he went to a turbo short after because he wanted more. A 75 shot would be safe, the rule is 20hp per cylinder so 75 meets that. Nitrous is very safe if hooked up properly, make sure you have a bottle heater, fuel cut off switch, and a WOT switch. Just make sure you have all the necessary precautions and nitrous is safe. I'm not to sure how it would work with the safc since your already adjusting the fuel being pumped in.

[94celicadude]

I've talked to matt about this before, he said it worked great but he went to a turbo short after because he wanted more. A 75 shot would be safe, the rule is 20hp per cylinder so 75 meets that. Nitrous is very safe if hooked up properly, make sure you have a bottle heater, fuel cut off switch, and a WOT switch. Just make sure you have all the necessary precautions and nitrous is safe. I'm not to sure how it would work with the safc since your already adjusting the fuel being pumped in.

Thanks for your advice... this gives me a little faith that it might work out in the end.

I am planning on getting the bottle heater... the Zex kit comes with the WOT switch included in their control unit... and I am going to look into a window switch to make sure I have no chance of over revving... i think that is my biggest fear.



Has anybody else had any luck... or misfortune giving their girl giggle juice? Always looking for input...

Once again thanks to those that have added their knowledge!

[freddy121389]

i thought about going with a 75 shot myself since i have an automatic but im just going to turbo with very light boost like 8psi

[94celicadude]

i thought about going with a 75 shot myself since i have an automatic but im just going to turbo with very light boost like 8psi

Thread jacker!

[808celica]

just dont hold the button down in all gears

[freddy121389]

just dont hold the button down in all gears

i think he's going for a wot switch rather than push button

[94celicadude]

Gotta Granny shift it

Anybody else know of somebody that has lots of experience with nitrous?

I have a friend that runs a V6 mustang with an 80 shot.. (gutted, Slicks & Skinnies) and he is running 12.01 in the 1/4.

Now i know realistically that i wont be able to run anywhere close to that w/ nitrous... but id be happy to hit low 14s

He tells me that overhead cam motors dont usually take well to nitrous, has anybody else heard this too or dealt with it?

Thanks for the input!

[freddy121389]

isn't his mustang a sohc?

[94celicadude]

isn't his mustang a sohc?

yes.

So are civics, and integras and everything else people put spray on.... just some words from a good friend who runs all his cars on nitrous.

[freddy121389]

75 shot is really little, as long as your going that or below you should be ok, just make sure you have all the safety measures to make it safe

[95st-celica]

100 shot on a rebuilt 5s will be fine...get it tuned to run a little rich and you wont have any problems.

i wouldnt recomend hitting it every time you floor it, but every once in a while wont hurt it.

i say go for it

[lagos]

A slow car on spray is still a slow car.

[95st-celica]

A slow car on spray is still a slow car.

[94celicadude]

100 shot on a rebuilt 5s will be fine...get it tuned to run a little rich and you wont have any problems.

i wouldnt recomend hitting it every time you floor it, but every once in a while wont hurt it.

i say go for it

I was thinking 100 shot once on the dyno to see what kind of numbers i run, and maybe on occasion if i get some V8 that wants to be humiliated...

I will also be running a booster fuel pump (from Zex) in order to make sure i will never be in need of fuel... playing it really safe on this one.

A slow car on spray is still a slow car.

Truth hurts man...

[Stambo]

a buddy of mine has a 50 shot in his ford probe. Yes i know a probe... His is still running fine. BTW its the v6 one, He was hitting 14.6

[94celicadude]

a buddy of mine has a 50 shot in his ford probe. Yes i know a probe... His is still running fine. BTW its the v6 one, He was hitting 14.6

I figured those things should run mid 15s without the shot... so i guess for a 50 thats not too bad.

But yes, a slow car with nitrous, is still a slow car lol

Anybody else have any advice they are willing to part with?

[lagos]

Invest in a turbo kit and have a fast car.

[94celicadude]

Invest in a turbo kit and have a fast car.

Actually,

I have weighed my options, and I did originally want to invest in a turbo kit, but as I am a broke college student with no income, it would be much more difficult for me to do this. I already have the nitrous kit sitting at home, and it stares me in the face every time i go into my room.

I know that I will not obtain nearly a good or numbers just spraying the car as I would with a turbo setup, but since it seems like no one else has ventured too deep into this area with the 5S, it gives me another reason to pioneer it and see what happens.

I hope that I will be able to reliably spray a 75 shot, with the occasional 100 shot, and since nitrous is a very close 1:1 ratio, i could be seeing upwards of 220 WHP.

Just wanted to get any insight from others on the forum to see if anybody else had delved into this.

Thank for all the input so far... keep it coming!

[lagos]

In the end you will spend the same amount of money. You can cheap out now but you will pay later. These are words to live by and apply to any car project.

[94celicadude]

In the end you will spend the same amount of money. You can cheap out now but you will pay later. These are words to live by and apply to any car project.

These are very good words to live by, i completely agree with you.

But when i get a complete nitrous kit for $180 (including purge) and I only need to buy a booster fuel pump ($250) and the window switch eventually ($250)...

after the engine rebuild that I would have to do regardless of turboing or spray, im pretty sure i couldnt part together a good reliable turbo kit for $700.

And thats counting on the fact that i have lots of available resources available... I know how to tig weld, and have a TIG welder as well, all the tools i would ever need then some, and an ample work space to do this entire project in the warmth of a shop.

While i may not achieve as great of numbers, and most definitely will not go nearly as fast in the 1/4... i do think that i will obtain a pretty quick 5S to scoot around town in... when i push the button.

As soon as I return from Spain, this is going to turn into my winter/spring project... so look for a build thread soon!

[lagos]

The point Im trying to make is that with the rebuild and the nitrous you will spend the same money as someone doing a 3sgte swap or a turbo kit. Why not just do it all the right way and have a reliable car?

The juice is not a reliable option. Sure you can setup it up and it will work a few times, but there have been more blown motors from that stuff then anything else. If it was so cheap and easy, none of us here would have invested the money into our swaps and turbo kits.

I mean, its your car, time and money, but Im just trying to give you some advice. There is no cheap lunch when it comes to cars.

[94celicadude]

I hear what you are saying, and I greatly appreciate the advice.

I guess I want to try something out of the box, may come back to bite me in the butt, but at least I can say I tried.

This post has been edited by 94celicadude: Nov 13, 2009 - 11:00 AM

[lagos]

cool. good luck.

[95st-celica]

art, its not really cheaping out...i dont understand this negativity you have towards nitrous. of course a turbo is a better option, but lets be honest, turboing a 5s or pulling it out and doing a 3sgte swap is ALOT more money then throwing a nitrous kit on your car. From my understanding this guy isnt just going to go through a 200 shot on his car with 200k on it and go out spraying the hell out of it. In that case YEA its gonna blow. Thats common sense. But a motor built for nitrous will last.

If you look at it from this point of veiw, my uncle drives a 9 second camaro, with a 300 shot on it. he has hit that button so many times its redicilous. and hes gotten great results from it. Why? because when he built the motor, he built it for nitrous. coated pistons to absorb the heat, and many other things to strengthen the engine from detonation. Now im not sugesting to this guy to go that crazy with the build, because hes not putting a 300 shot on his car. but a 100 shot of nitrous, if tuned correctly, is actually just as reliable as a turbo. people blow motors because they are retarded. low oil, general maintaince not being performed, reving the engine out to 10k, things of that sort. if your responsable with it, understand how it works, and tune the car, i see no reason that any motor for that matter can not handle a small shot.

on another note, nitrous is not flammable. its is more or less a fuel addative to boost the octane, hence more fuel, higher octane, more power to the wheels.

For some reason not just you, but ALOT of people have this deception that nitrous is bad for a car, and O0o God, dont do that!! you'll blow you motor!! but in all reality, its a great, cheap (money perspective) way to increase power in your vehicle.

Lastly i would like to comment on the fact that ANYTHING being forced into your engine is going to have wear and tear on your motor, weather it be a turbo, nitrous, jet fuel, whatever the case may be. But with the proper tools and tuneing, there is no reason why anyone can not spray an engine and have it last 100,000 miles. i see people all the time with nitrous on their car and it has lasted a very long time. on the other hand i have seen people put kits on their car and blow it up the next day. Mainly because they just threw it on and took it out.

Art, sometimes you just make me want to put a 150 shot on the 3s to prove you wrong...but in my case, i probably WOULD blow my motor up.

its all in good love brother, dont take what i say to heart

[lagos]

LOL these NOS debates are as old as the internet.

[95st-celica]

LOL these NOS debates are as old as the internet.

your old as dirt!

Listen dude..i saw what you did with that 7A rebuild, nitrous will be a walk in the park

[freddy121389]

in the short run yes it is cheaper, but think about it this way, you have to refill nitrous meaning constant money over time that needs to be spent to have that extra power. A turbo doesn't run out of power it's always there. I've done calculations and in reality the nitrous is more expensive in the long run, in the short run yes you're right it is cheaper. Just my 2 cents.

[94celicadude]

LOL these NOS debates are as old as the internet.

your old as dirt!

Listen dude..i saw what you did with that 7A rebuild, nitrous will be a walk in the park

95st

I greatly appreciate your input in this matter in trying to explain my point of view on the nitrous thing.

And I also thank you for the support and compliments on the 7A build, that was my first motor (with the help and guidance of my father of course) and the 5S, will be all that and then some.

I hope to be able to create a reliable nitrous power 5S, and of course still be able to get a MINIMUM of 100K out of a Toyota motor

freddy

I do agree with what you are saying about the nitrous refill, but it also depends on how often, and how much nitrous you use.

This car is my daily driver and will remain to be even after the build, so yes i will spray every now and then, but i dont plan on having to refill my bottle more than once a month at most.

My friend that runs nitrous on all his cars has probably put around 100 to 200 bottles through his v6 mustang... and i would like to think Toyotas are more reliable than mustangs imo, so i think that i could probably get a pretty good run out of a 5S with spray.

[freddy121389]

any updates?

[94celicadude]

any updates?

Considering im studying abroad in Spain right now and I am 3000+ miles away from my car.... no lol

I was just trying to conduct some research about this before I dove with both feet into the project.

I probably wont be to start this until about March or something like that.

But ill make sure to keep you updated.

[freddy121389]

i may have mine done before u then lol

[94celicadude]

i may have mine done before u then lol

That would be awesome, Id really be interested in seeing what kind of results you get out of it.

Keep me updated.

[jeffrosie]

I had nitrous in my ST162 and used it as much as I could. Its addictive in the sence that when ever you see a chance for a traffic light burnout you arm the system. The ST162 is fitted witha rev1 3SGE putting out 148 brake. I fitted a 100 shot single injector kit and it was maddddd. On the first day I burnt out my brakes, after a while the clutch started to slip, then I blew the headgasket. So i fitted larger brakes from another Toyota, a performance clutch and a steel headgasket - abit modified from a ST205 and the car never gave problems again. It loved the 100 shot of nitrous just as much as me. Never had it on a dyno, so don't know what it made, but it was FAST.

[freddy121389]

damn a 100 shot huh, on stock internals or what?

[jeffrosie]

Yup, on a Rev1 3SGTE with the above stated mods

[94celicadude]

Sounds like you ended up with quite little rocket ship there. Now did you mean to post 3SGE on the reply or 3SGTE?... big diff on those motor... main one being the turbo lol

Well gives me hope that Toyota motors like the juice

[jeffrosie]

The ST162 is the 1st of the front wheel drive Celica's fitted with the 3SGE - non turbo
Used a wet kit on it taking the fuel from a tap on the cold start injector line.
Car has since been sold minus the nitrous and from what I last heard lives about 250 miles from me still going well.

[Dr_Tweak]

I've worked with nitrous a few times, personally I think it's a fun option. It's very important to buy the right kit and to make sure you take all of the precautions when running it.

MSD makes a great programmable window switch which I highly recommend. That combined with the usual safeties (full throttle switch, low pressure switch, etc) makes for a reliable option. Also you need to do your research as to the type of nitrous system to get. The best is direct port which injects exactly the same amount of nitrous AND fuel into each cylinder. Of course this is the most expensive but it's the most reliable and is what I would personally run.

The other type is the dry system which increases fuel pressure to compensate for the nitrous which is being spraying into the intake, this is the type you would normally run on an EFI engine. The downside is that the stock fuel injectors can only compensate so much, so you're limited on how much nitrous you can use. Someone wanting to go this route might want to look into some larger injectors and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to make sure there is plenty of fuel on tap.

You want to stay away from wet systems which spray both nitrous and fuel into the intake, the fuel will not flow evenly to all cylinders (because EFI engines have intake manifolds that are designed to flow air only and not fuel... they have different flow characteristics) which will often result in one lean cylinder. (The obvious exception to this is if you have a carburated engine, since those manifolds are designed to properly flow both fuel and air).

Finally, don't forget how nitrous works. Nitrous Oxide, N20, is 1/3rd oxygen, vs. the atmosphere which is 1/5th oxygen. The additional oxygen must be mixed with the appropriate amount of fuel in order to maintain a proper air/fuel mixture. In addition it increases power by it's cooling effect which increases air density. The gas itself is not flammable, nor does it "increase fuel octane".

Other precautions you should take include using 92 or 93 octane fuel at all times to prevent detonation, as well as using one step colder spark plugs so that they don't become a "hot spot" and cause pre-ignition.

One last word of advice. Depending on how often you fill the gas cylinder and how often you use it, and how much that costs (it's been a while since I checked), you may find yourself spending quite a bit every month keeping your car on the gas. I once saw someone do some calculations and figure out that after 1 year of using nitrous, he spent as much on it as he would have on a good-quality turbo system. In other words, up to 1 year it was cheaper to go with nitrous.... after the 1 year the turbo system would have paid for itself. Choose wisely.

-Doc

[SwissFerdi]

Very well written, Tweak.

This post has been edited by SwissFerdi: Nov 21, 2009 - 12:39 PM

[94celicadude]

Wow!

This is a wealth of info!

Its also exactly what I have been looking for, thank you so much for all this Tweak.

I will now be doing a lot more research into the system, and if I can afford it I will also be looking into a direct port injection nitrous kit.

Once again thanks!