ST engine swap, 4agze, or 4age, or 3sgte Options

[96stgreendemon]

thinking about a potential swap, was looking at a 4agze and wondering if it would be the easiest motor to swap with the st, or just put the head on my 7afe block, or put the 4age head on my block, or just swap it for a 3sgte, which would mean new mounts, harness, ecu, exhaust, and tranny, thoughts?

[richee3]

4AGZE. Uses the same motor mounts. It's kinda like swapping a 3S-GTE into a GT. It's one of the easiest swaps. Do it!

[96stgreendemon]

what about the wireing and all of that, does it use the same ecu and sensors? what about the manifold and downpipe? help lol

[soulshadow]

Use the search button and do the swap yourself you will see what you need. Personally stick to a 7A less headaches. The gain of a 4agze is the same as slapping on a turbo for your 7A.

[Mstoochn]

Use the search button and do the swap yourself you will see what you need. Personally stick to a 7A less headaches. The gain of a 4agze is the same as slapping on a turbo for your 7A.

y is there one of these threads every week... and often the SAME peopl asking all over again

[96stgreendemon]

^^ how about you use the search button and look to see the last time i posted a thread about an engine swap????? just humor me and find it

[_Jim_]

A GEN3 3sgte swap wont be much more work then a 4agze swap, but will reap a lot more benefits. It has a better performance base, solid swap information, plenty of tech help, and will outperform the 4agze/7afte is every aspect.

As stated, swapping in a GEN3 3sgte will only require the use of the GT passenger mount, an S series transmission (S54 or E153), and you will be required to drill a hole for the passenger mount, (Very self explanatory once you actually see it in person and setup the mount.) From there, you install your clutch, replace the standard gaskets, tune up, do the very small amount of wiring required (or pay someone to do it) and your good to go.

[CelicaST_CALI]

No offense to jim but the 4agze swap is A LOT easier in a ST than a 3sgte swap in terms of money and time.If ur not shooting for over 225 u can use the same tranny and mounts with no problem.A 3sgte swap into a ST is gonna be about 2500$ more thana 4agze swap also. Jim is def right that the 3s is a better engine,but it costs a lot more and is a much bigger job to install.


The 4agze has forged pistons stock and a few other things(i can name if u want) that are better than puting on a 4age head to your 7afe.

This post has been edited by CelicaST_CALI: Jan 1, 2010 - 11:01 PM

[_Jim_]

No offense to jim but the 4agze swap is A LOT easier in a ST than a 3sgte swap in terms of money and time.If ur not shooting for over 225 u can use the same tranny and mounts with no problem.A 3sgte swap into a ST is gonna be about 2500$ more thana 4agze swap also. Jim is def right that the 3s is a better engine,but it costs a lot more and is a much bigger job to install.


The 4agze has forged pistons stock and a few other things(i can name if u want) that are better than puting on a 4age head to your 7afe.

No offense taken Bud. You are correct that a 4agze would be a cheaper swap into a 7a 5 speed equipt car, but the OP didnt make mention of money, just the easy of the swap. So at that point (with both swaps being basically equal in difficulty), the 3s is the clear winner. If money is an issue...and you dont have plans of 300+whp, then the 4agze could be a nice swap.

[CelicaST_CALI]

No offense to jim but the 4agze swap is A LOT easier in a ST than a 3sgte swap in terms of money and time.If ur not shooting for over 225 u can use the same tranny and mounts with no problem.A 3sgte swap into a ST is gonna be about 2500$ more thana 4agze swap also. Jim is def right that the 3s is a better engine,but it costs a lot more and is a much bigger job to install.


The 4agze has forged pistons stock and a few other things(i can name if u want) that are better than puting on a 4age head to your 7afe.

No offense taken Bud. You are correct that a 4agze would be a cheaper swap into a 7a 5 speed equipt car, but the OP didnt make mention of money, just the easy of the swap. So at that point (with both swaps being basically equal in difficulty), the 3s is the clear winner. If money is an issue...and you dont have plans of 300+whp, then the 4agze could be a nice swap.

But they arent?With the 4agze u leave the tranny/axles there,and im sure u know its a job to get that sucker out.Also u dont have to even replace the mounts,i know its not to hard,but its just ONE more thing that has to be done.But i do agree if money is no problem than more the 3sgte route for sure.

[_Jim_]

No offense to jim but the 4agze swap is A LOT easier in a ST than a 3sgte swap in terms of money and time.If ur not shooting for over 225 u can use the same tranny and mounts with no problem.A 3sgte swap into a ST is gonna be about 2500$ more thana 4agze swap also. Jim is def right that the 3s is a better engine,but it costs a lot more and is a much bigger job to install.


The 4agze has forged pistons stock and a few other things(i can name if u want) that are better than puting on a 4age head to your 7afe.

No offense taken Bud. You are correct that a 4agze would be a cheaper swap into a 7a 5 speed equipt car, but the OP didnt make mention of money, just the easy of the swap. So at that point (with both swaps being basically equal in difficulty), the 3s is the clear winner. If money is an issue...and you dont have plans of 300+whp, then the 4agze could be a nice swap.

But they arent?With the 4agze u leave the tranny/axles there,and im sure u know its a job to get that sucker out.Also u dont have to even replace the mounts,i know its not to hard,but its just ONE more thing that has to be done.But i do agree if money is no problem than more the 3sgte route for sure.

LOL, so you are telling me if you were going to do a 4agze swap into a 7a currently equipt with 5 speed transmission you would separate the transmission in the engine bay?....of course not. So at that point, you are removing the tranny and motor as one assembly, and the axles must be removed for this anyway...so that is wash. Basically the only real difference is the mounts, and we all know how easy they are to change. And compared to the amount of work involved in a swap of ANY kind, the added work/expense of changing out a couple mounts falls by the wayside.

[CelicaST_CALI]

o sorry jim ive never done it haha,i just thought u could unbolt the tranny and pull the engine..hmm,still the 3sgte swap is a lot more $,also becuase with that kinda power u have to upgrade other things,brakes,suspension ect...

[96stgreendemon]

yeah im not really looking for alot more horse power from the car as its my dd and im a college student that commutes 60 miles a day back and fourth i would still like the gas mileage and a little more power

[CelicaST_CALI]

look into the 4age black top,its NA but puts down around 160 whp(i think) so itd be very reliable..Whats your budget for the swap if u dont mind me asking?

This post has been edited by CelicaST_CALI: Jan 2, 2010 - 2:01 AM

[GriffGirl]

Your easiest bet is going to be to do a 4age head swap; the 7a block is a better block than the 4a block, at least the USDM 4a block. If you're looking for more power and don't have a ton of money, the head swap is definitely the best way to increase compression. On top of the head swap, you can also add an intake, and upgrade your exhaust by getting a nice aftermarket exhaust header and a decent exhaust system, even if just a 2.25" cat-back w/hi-flow muffler. With that, you can definitely expect some gains; I don't know the exact numbers on what the gains are on a head swap w/stock internals off the top of my head, but google it and you'll find a ton of info on it. With the intake and exhaust upgrades, you might collectively expect an increase of maybe 10 hp on top of whatever the head swap gets you.

Beyond that, your next best bet really is, IMHO, going to be a 3sgte. I've had my heart set on a Blacktop since shortly after I got my Celica 2 and a half years ago, but with some recent *enlightenment* and having looked at the actual numbers, honestly, it just didn't make sense to consider the 4agze any more. You're still going to need a wiring harness, ecu, etc. The only thing you won't need is the tranny - sorry, but big whoop. Like Jim said, it's not like you're going to just leave the tranny and axles bolted in while you lift the motor out, that's, well... retarded. If you're gonna pull an engine, you're gonna pull an engine, which includes the tranny.

The money, time and effort to swap the 3sgte vs a 4agze really is about equal, save for maybe a couple hundred bucks for the tranny to pair up to the S motor. Sorry, but the few hundred bucks is WAY worth it for, oh I dunno, a few HUNDRED more HP between the 2 motors IMO

[Mstoochn]

head swap increase compression? lol?

[GriffGirl]

yeah, swapping a 4age head onto a 7afe block increases compression.

[CelicaST_CALI]

4agze engine=1500$ from venus,they claim thats everything under the hood and the ecu,no tranny.Then lets say 1000$ in misc crap..The 3sgte swap is about 3k for the engine,400 tranny,200 axles,mounts...it averages to about 4500.This is how i personally see it,2000$ less for a 4agze swap,but about 100 hp less.Please tell me if you disagree,im sure michelle will haha

[96stgreendemon]

ha ha yeah i just want a tad bit more power, it still has to be my dd for the next 3 years of college, so i still want it to be reliable and something that can be done in a week or less, which is why i was thinking about just using a 4age head, how hard would this be?

[_Jim_]

4agze engine=1500$ from venus,they claim thats everything under the hood and the ecu,no tranny.Then lets say 1000$ in misc crap..The 3sgte swap is about 3k for the engine,400 tranny,200 axles,mounts...it averages to about 4500.This is how i personally see it,2000$ less for a 4agze swap,but about 100 hp less.Please tell me if you disagree,im sure michelle will haha

Ok lets do a little comparison (and these prices are based on a quick search and considered "average")

4agze:

COMPLETE Motor set.....1800 shipped
clutch, FMIC, gaskets, fluids, Misc.....1500$

Total:
3200$

Total power gains:
180whp
180wtq

(scrolling Mr2oc dyno registry)


GEN3 3sgte:
Complete motor set.....2000$ shipped (this is what I sell them for without the W2A IC, so since you be required to do a FMIC on the 4agze, it is only fair to price the GEN3 WITHOUT the W2A IC system in favor of a FMIC)
Clutch, FMIC, gaskets, fluids, Misc.....1500$
S54 transmission, axles, shifter cables, and mounts 400$

Total:
3900$

Total power gains
330whp
310wtq

(my personal results, which have been duplicated by others)



And now a little recap
4agze swap costs 3200$ completed and will produce around 180whp and 180wtq
GEN3 3sgte swap costs 3900$ completed and will produce around 330whp and 310wtq

So an addition 700$ allows you an ADDITIONAL 150whp and 130wtq.

[GriffGirl]

4agze engine=1500$ from venus,they claim thats everything under the hood and the ecu,no tranny.Then lets say 1000$ in misc crap..The 3sgte swap is about 3k for the engine,400 tranny,200 axles,mounts...it averages to about 4500.This is how i personally see it,2000$ less for a 4agze swap,but about 100 hp less.Please tell me if you disagree,im sure michelle will haha

I don't have to disagree, Jim already did it for me

From my perspective, OP is looking for a nice little "kick", on a budget, and with solid dependability. It seems that a motor swap is going to offer more dependability than a turbo project, which is why the swap even came into play here. Obviously though, a swap isn't going to be within any sort of college-kid budget, which is why I think a head swap is the best option. He's not looking for big numbers, and he's not looking to drop a ton of money into this. He just wants a car that isn't slow as sh1t, and is still a reliable DD. Being in the SAME shoes (except for the college kid part, I'm just a broke-ass adult hahaha), I've researched this whole thing time and time again, and it comes down to this, quite simply:

You want a little kick, but you can't spend $1000, do a head swap. Throw in intake, exhaust, header, all said you're looking at under $1000, maybe even under $500 depending on the exhaust. I've seen 16v 4age heads on CL for really cheap, like $100 or less.
You want big power and money isn't an issue, do a 3sgte swap.
You don't care so much about big #s, you just want a great build that's a little less common, do a 4agze swap.
You want instant gratification on a bit of a budget (compared to a motor swap) and +100 HP is enough, do a turbo project (on stock internals).

[96stgreendemon]

^^ yes michelle hit the nail right on the head, i dont want big big numbers as its a dd for me, a turbo would be nice but i have only found 1 7afe turbo manifold and afer bov fmic and all that basically it will be the same as a 4age blacktop head swap, and its looking like the 4agze is a little out of budget for me atm

[GriffGirl]

Exactly, you can very reasonably expect that a turbo project would run you roughly the same as a 4agze swap after all is said and done. Turbo might come in a little less, but then again maybe not after welding and fabrication.

Start researching the head swap idea. Club 4ag is a great place to get info on this; so is Celicatech, and also definitely check out Dr. Tweak's forum at http://www.phoenixtuning.com, there's a good amount of discussion about this on there, too.

Here's a thread to get ya started: http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t98590.html
I found it after googling "how to build a 7AGE"

This post has been edited by GriffGirl: Jan 2, 2010 - 3:21 PM

[95st-celica]

Honestly, from FIRST hand experience, i can say that the ST swap to the 3sgte is not a walk in the park. The most difficult part would be sourcing everything down, for instance, GT-motor mounts(drove out 4 hours to pull them off a car in harrisburg) along with shifter cables, Source a GT transmission, axles, clutch, etc, etc. Then once you have everything, you are still going to have to drill holes through the frame, figure out the BEST possiabl way to secure the motor mount, rebuild the complete engine, all of which takes time and money. Along with sending out the harness to be wired up, its not just like your pulling your engine out, drilling 2 holes, putting the motor mounts in and bolt the engine back up. its a lot of work. Now i dont want to discourage anyone from doing it because with the right tools, time, and space it can be done, espically if you have everything right there ready to go. and being in college does not help with expenses at all, trust me on that one. you would be better of finding a GT as a base to start, that will cancel out a lot of problems right there, after that, decide if you want to boost the 5s, or do the swap. i think the swap is a very good upgrade for either the 5s or the 7a, but with limited funds, and mechanical experience, its all up to what you think you can do, and what power goals you are looking to get out of your car, but in the same asspect, the 3sgte, either 2ND GEN or 3RD GEN, put out great reliable power.

[_Jim_]

Honestly, from FIRST hand experience, i can say that the ST swap to the 3sgte is not a walk in the park. The most difficult part would be sourcing everything down, for instance, GT-motor mounts(drove out 4 hours to pull them off a car in harrisburg) along with shifter cables, Source a GT transmission, axles, clutch, etc, etc. Then once you have everything, you are still going to have to drill holes through the frame, figure out the BEST possiabl way to secure the motor mount, rebuild the complete engine, all of which takes time and money. Along with sending out the harness to be wired up, its not just like your pulling your engine out, drilling 2 holes, putting the motor mounts in and bolt the engine back up. its a lot of work. Now i dont want to discourage anyone from doing it because with the right tools, time, and space it can be done, espically if you have everything right there ready to go. and being in college does not help with expenses at all, trust me on that one. you would be better of finding a GT as a base to start, that will cancel out a lot of problems right there, after that, decide if you want to boost the 5s, or do the swap. i think the swap is a very good upgrade for either the 5s or the 7a, but with limited funds, and mechanical experience, its all up to what you think you can do, and what power goals you are looking to get out of your car, but in the same asspect, the 3sgte, either 2ND GEN or 3RD GEN, put out great reliable power.

You have several options when swapping a GEN3 3sgte into an ST. If buying a motor set, understand that they don't come with motor mounts, S54 transmission, GT axles, or GT shifter cables, so sourcing these parts before hand would be in your best interest. There are always people parting out a gt on this site, so sourcing these parts would be relativity simple. Buying these parts ahead of time, will eliminate the feeling of being rushed when you have the 3sgte sitting in your garage waiting to go in, and will ultimately make your swapping experience smoother/easier/faster.

As for wiring...it is a wash. You will either need to wire in your 4agze swap, or your 3sgte swap. And with a GEN3 3sgte swap, it is only a handful of wires that need to be spliced. The average Joe would be able to complete this with the proper research.

Clutch, gasket rebuild, FMIC, are also a wash as both motors would require the same work.

I agree that ANY swap is a fair amount of work, but that is not to discourage anyone from trying. Between proper research and help from the community, you can get it done. The more time you spend reading, researching, and asking questions will ultimately determine how easy/successful your swapping experience will be.

[lagos]

All swaps are a pain in the as and costs money. If you're broke or you dont have free time, don't bother.
There are a lot of people who jumped into these projects without knowing what they are doing, only to end up selling their car off to someone else.

Do it right or don't do it at all.

[_Jim_]

All swaps are a pain in the as and costs money. If you're broke or you dont have free time, don't bother.
There are a lot of people who jumped into these projects without knowing what they are doing, only to end up selling their car off to someone else.

Do it right or don't do it at all.

Spoken like a true professional.

[GriffGirl]

Do it right or don't do it at all.

Dn't you mean do it half assed once and do it right the second time?

[soulshadow]

Get yourself a Supra, or a WRX....

* I have a complete 4age 16V BlueTop with Tvis if intrested fully running that I just took out with around 115K miles. Comes with MR2 AW11 ECU and complete Wiring.
Let me know if your intrested.

This post has been edited by soulshadow: Jan 3, 2010 - 8:22 PM

[lagos]

Do it right or don't do it at all.

Dn't you mean do it half assed once and do it right the second time?