Troubleshooting Request! [SOLVED] Options

[rave2n]

Hello all. On my way home from work this evening, the cellie died.

I was just taking off after a light, and it started to feel like it was stalling in 1st when the gas about half down. It seems to have recovered and was going alright. Drove normal...til the next light. Did it agian, but worse.

After stalling completely while going 35, pulled over. Had trouble starting up, but would start. Idle was crazy, but tapping the gas you could get it up to 4k rpm easy. That didn't last long either. It started to drop asoon as I hit the gas after that. Now it'll have a really rough start up, then run like crap for about 10 seconds, then just dies.

I checked for any obvious leaks or anything of the sort..nothing. My limited knowledge of engines is a hinderence atm. I do know, you need air, fuel, spark. I have air, I have spark. So, my question is...do you guys think my fuel filter, pump, or injector is bad?

The spark plugs are less then a year old, the only recent thing i've done is got a oil change, and put in LED BA-15 bulbs in my rear lights =P

Any assistance would be greatly appreicated, as right now its sitting in a parking lot of a not so wonderful area. Hoping its something I can fix quickly and available at a local shop..

This post has been edited by rave2n: May 19, 2010 - 4:15 PM

[rave2n]

Alrighty, decided to go take another look.

When I got back to it, it wouldn't start. So I thought it was the pump, I go and start taking apart the pump, but I only managed to take all the screw outs and such and take a look at it, then I just put it back in. I made sure it was on, and attempted to start the car, it started this time with me only barely tapping the gas.

If I would try to do anything stronger then a tap on the gas while taking off it would stall out. When I managed to get the RPMs up enough to move it would be ok aslong as I didn't hit the gas hard at all. If it hit hard at all, it would start sputtering and dropping RPMs til it stalled out.

All in all, I got it home...very slowly, and stalled 3 times while holding the clutch and taking a turn, i assume from the PS pump taking power. Any Ideas guys? I'm leaning at the fuel pump, but am unsure on how to test if when it seems to be only half functioning.


Odd question, if you disconnect one of your rear light assembly, will it cause your blinker on the respective side to tick much faster?

[longgone]

Alrighty, decided to go take another look.

When I got back to it, it wouldn't start. So I thought it was the pump, I go and start taking apart the pump, but I only managed to take all the screw outs and such and take a look at it, then I just put it back in. I made sure it was on, and attempted to start the car, it started this time with me only barely tapping the gas.

If I would try to do anything stronger then a tap on the gas while taking off it would stall out. When I managed to get the RPMs up enough to move it would be ok aslong as I didn't hit the gas hard at all. If it hit hard at all, it would start sputtering and dropping RPMs til it stalled out.

All in all, I got it home...very slowly, and stalled 3 times while holding the clutch and taking a turn, i assume from the PS pump taking power. Any Ideas guys? I'm leaning at the fuel pump, but am unsure on how to test if when it seems to be only half functioning.


Odd question, if you disconnect one of your rear light assembly, will it cause your blinker on the respective side to tick much faster?

Hi there
You should check that there is no leaks in your fuel pipes
I had a problem with mine and thought it was the pump
took out the pump to find it was working ok
check the fuel pump relay working ok
checked the fuel pump regulator working ok
then i went to put the fuel pump back in but had the tank full of fuel so decided to pump it out with it's own pump
on the workshop floor as I was doing this I noticed that there was a leak on the pipe as it came out of the tank
(rust) took it to my trusty welder and fixed the pipe
put the tank back in and problem fixed
now I'm not saying this is the case on your car but food for thought
But first check fuel filter
as far as the blinker goes I'd say bad ground

[rave2n]

Hi there
You should check that there is no leaks in your fuel pipes
I had a problem with mine and thought it was the pump
took out the pump to find it was working ok
check the fuel pump relay working ok
checked the fuel pump regulator working ok
then i went to put the fuel pump back in but had the tank full of fuel so decided to pump it out with it's own pump
on the workshop floor as I was doing this I noticed that there was a leak on the pipe as it came out of the tank
(rust) took it to my trusty welder and fixed the pipe
put the tank back in and problem fixed
now I'm not saying this is the case on your car but food for thought
But first check fuel filter
as far as the blinker goes I'd say bad ground

Thank you for the response, I'll definately check for leaks in the morning. Yea I havn't messed with fuel systems yets, so this will be my crash course. I'll look at all those things, appreciate the tips.

I think the blinker is just from me disconnecting the rear passenger harness. It was the latest thing I did, just put in some 12 LED bulbs, I thought I might of shorted something, so just incase I disconnected it. Doesn't seem to be a electrical problem though, everything on that side seemed fine. Even disconnected the amp to see if that could have been a culprit. Lol anything to get her going agian.

[presure2]

first thing i would do is bridge the FP and B+ pins in your diagnostics box, and verify that the pump runs.
check for pressure from the fuel filter to the rail (you can feel the gas flowing thru the line) then from the rail out the return line.
if it is working, i would check timing.

[rave2n]

first thing i would do is bridge the FP and B+ pins in your diagnostics box, and verify that the pump runs.
check for pressure from the fuel filter to the rail (you can feel the gas flowing thru the line) then from the rail out the return line.
if it is working, i would check timing.

Hmm will do, thanks! I went and rented this huge fuel pressure testing kit this morning. We'll see what pans out.

Started it this morning, struggled just a little to start, but it was actually doing 50 times better then yesterday, but the problem is still there, you can hit the gas and it starts to stutter in idle, but doesn't stall completely out. I assume that would change when it warms up.

Let the fun begin, i'll post my findings.

[rave2n]

Well turns out taking a fuel filter out is a major pain in the ass.

As well, no frigging store in this area sells the Banjo fittings, or replacement fuel lines. I can get it out of the fuel rail, but it won't budge on the filter. Nor will the steel line on the bottom of the filter...the filter actually bent, and now it seems impossible to remove it....yay.

Update Edit: Got the filter out, when taken out, brown liquid came out...I can only assume that is rust. Put new filter on, and its started up easier, but continues to have the issue. Put in some fuel system cleaner, gunna let it run for 20 and see what happens. If no changes..on to the next stuff.. Which I should have checked first...the EFI relay and throttle body vacumn port. If those don't work, then its back to the drawing board.

This post has been edited by rave2n: Mar 20, 2010 - 2:06 PM

[rave2n]

After much testing, it would appear to be the Fuel Pressure Regulator.

It would jump to 52 PSI when you removed the Vacumn Line, which is 8 PSI higher then spec, and the return line is still working. Which would make sense, its drowning the engine. New one is of course one of those items you have to order. So the cellie is down til wednesday..if that is truely the problem.

[rave2n]

Hmm, well its Monday morning. It drove to work fine, with only one stutter.

Now I don't know what the heck its issue is. I havn't changed the regulator out, cause its still on the way, but why would it act near normal now?

Only thing i've done is replaced the fuel filter, and put some new NGK plugs in....

When replacing a fuel filter, does the effects of the correction take time before it comes into play?

[longgone]

Hmm, well its Monday morning. It drove to work fine, with only one stutter.

Now I don't know what the heck its issue is. I havn't changed the regulator out, cause its still on the way, but why would it act near normal now?

Only thing i've done is replaced the fuel filter, and put some new NGK plugs in....

When replacing a fuel filter, does the effects of the correction take time before it comes into play?

It's possible that some of that contaminated fuel has gone through your filter causing it to stutter
where are you getting your fuel that there was brown stuff in the filter
most good fuel stations have decent filters on there tanks
I take it that you never replaced the fuel filter when doing a service on your car
what colour was the plugs you took out
I don't think it's your fuel reg thou

[rave2n]

I'm getting it from a normal gas station..sometimes all diffrent ones.

The brown I can assume had to be rust. It appeared to be the original fuel filter on the car. Had toyota labels and all. The fuel that came out the rail when I was removing the filter was not looking contaminated, it looked like normal gas.

The plugs were slightly blackened with some white frost I would say. I assume I'm running lean, but I figured thats from the normal 7AFE leaky rings.

Yea, It drove fine all day today except the one stutter in the morning. Then I took it out to goto the gas station and it was acting crazy agian. If i hit the gas to hard when in neutral it would stutter and almost stall out unless I let go. I drove it there to see if anything would change, and when I returned I just sat and watched the idle for a good 15 mins, and its just random drops in RPM, up down up down, no specific rate. Be good for 10 seconds, then for another 2 seconds it would act like it can barely stay on, then come back to normal.

It almost seems electrical now...wires...distributor...hell I don't know.

[rave2n]

Well on the way to work this morning, it was back to its old tricks.

Its fine at high RPMs now, with not stutter at all. Anything over 2k it runs like normal

When taking off in first gota rev it up, or it stutters out.

I'm at a loss now, I've checked everything that makes sense...except timing..well cause I don't know how to do that yet..who knows..I might learn after this pain in the ass. Timing just doesn't make sense to me because its been running fine for a year, how would it just lose itself.

Bout to pull the distributor off and see whats cooking down there.

This post has been edited by rave2n: Mar 23, 2010 - 12:09 PM

[rave2n]

Well...Here is a break down of what I've done so far...so maybe it'll be easier to get answers.

New NGK plugs
New fuel filter
Checked all fuel line pressure, all with in spec now.
Removed and cleaned EGR Vacuum Modulator Valve

Removed Distributor Cap, and sanded posts down to cleaner surface, as well the arm that hits them. 1 Post is not looking to good, getting new cap soon. Still don't think this is the issue.

Cleaned PCV valve and checked air flow - works
Checked all vacumn lines on throttle body - all correct
Checked EFI relay & fuse- working
Looked for any obvious vacumn leaks - non found.
Reset Air/fuel mixture - twice

Jumped the dianostics E1 and Te1-2 I believe thats the correct ports, don't have my book in front of me. Looked for any CEL codes in normal mode and test mode. None were found.

As it stands, its running better, but thats probally from the lot of things I changed above, but the problem that originally got me on this tangent is still there.

When Idleing, you can watch the RPMs just drop and act like its going to stall, but then recovers. It drops from 800, to 400 or lower, and comes back. Ocassionally if you pound the gas in first, or second it'll hesitate, but go shortly after, almost like its not firing a cylinder (atleast to me it does =P) - Tapping the gas shortly to bring it up, then taking off is normal, no issue. No evidence of this occuring during any RPM past 2.5k.

I'm at a loss now, I have a few more tests i'm going to run, for instance getting a hand vacumn and testing the EGR valve itself, and seeing how that pans our, as well new Dist cap, and possibly new spark wires as well, possibly checking the timing as well. I'm not really looking to get so many new things for this engine, as it was planned to be swapped out, and sold for 400 to someone to use for a dune buggy...lucky for him.

Any help at this point would be greatly appreciated

[GriffGirl]

Honestly, it sounds like you have a vacuum leak to me. I'd start looking around in that area. I know you said you checked all your vacuum lines and they're correct, but have you checked to make sure none of them are cracked or split, and that they're on securely?

When you did the maintenance work before, did you happen to remove the throttle body and/or intake plenum? I did this a few weeks ago, and had the same problem, it was making me CRAZY. Turned out that when I was reassembling in the dark/cold/rain, I had trouble getting one of the screws in on the plenum, that's on the firewall side, kind of down underneath at an angle, beside the little vacuum canister thingie (I forget what it's called). Next day, I completely FORGOT about this, and couldn't understand WTF was going on.

[rave2n]

Honestly, it sounds like you have a vacuum leak to me. I'd start looking around in that area. I know you said you checked all your vacuum lines and they're correct, but have you checked to make sure none of them are cracked or split, and that they're on securely?

Yea that has crossed my mind many times. I'm going to check one tomorrow with a hand vacumn according to the haynes manual. All the lines I have in general, are soft and most likely need to be replaced. It does make sense though, it doesn't happen until the car is warmed up, so thats when the lines would get tender and loose from the heat. Just so many lines, and it seems difficult to find an actual leak =/ - Might just change'em all out to be honest. Couldn't hurt.

I havent messed with the throttle body, besides putting a SRI on. It might be due to check it =/ - Amazing how one thing goes wrong, you find a million others. Atleast its all getting fixed =P

Here is a video of the tach on how its acting. Just took it when I returned from a drive to the local U-pull to see if they had a Throttle Position sensor I could try out...they didn't...Unless the ones from a corolla 7AFE will work (Found a 4agze there as well, but in horrible condition, and a gutted 97 ST, no engine =( ). Its subtle through most of it, but there is one part where you'll see it drop and hold.

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j80/ice_...t=VIDEO_005.flv

This post has been edited by rave2n: Mar 23, 2010 - 4:19 PM

[GriffGirl]

Okay, so that video, that's the throttle doing that on its own, not you hitting the gas pedal, right?

I believe the TPS off the corolla 7afe will work, by the way. Have you tried adjusting your TPS yet? Or have you left it alone? If you've left it alone, don't try to adjust it. Also, have you cleaned your IAC valve out?

[rave2n]

Okay, so that video, that's the throttle doing that on its own, not you hitting the gas pedal, right?

I believe the TPS off the corolla 7afe will work, by the way. Have you tried adjusting your TPS yet? Or have you left it alone? If you've left it alone, don't try to adjust it. Also, have you cleaned your IAC valve out?

When it revs all the way up, thats me hitting the pedal, trying to recreate the horrible hesitation it get sometimes when I floor it. The drops are what I was trying to show. The video is horrible quality i know, but its the drops in RPM when idle that are killing me. Its weird how the problem has evolved. One day I couldn't drive it cause it stall asoon as you hit the gas, now its drivable with just drops in idle and heavy heavy throttle ocasionally.

Havn't touched the TPS yet...I was thinking of swapping it out tomorrow from a rolla.

IAC valve..I think I missed that one, that the one right next to the PCV valve, or am I way off. Need to get my books to reference =P

Edit: Yea just looked up that valve...I havn't even seen that before...I must check that out...now.

This post has been edited by rave2n: Mar 23, 2010 - 4:31 PM

[GriffGirl]

Yeah, clean the IAC valve. It may not work, although more and more I'm wondering if it will - not only will it not hurt anything to do it, it'll help to eliminate one more possible cause.

Looking at your RPMs, I don't actually think it is a vacuum leak, you'd be idling way higher and more erratically if it were a vacuum leak. Pull your intake off your throttle body and clean the hell out of it with carb cleaner or better yet, sensor safe cleaner stuff. You can clean it w/the engine running, just pull the throttle cable up to open up the TB inlet so you can get inside that flappy opener thing. Again, I know my language is awful, I don't know what the stuff is called, (throttle body butterfly valve? IDK?) but I know what I'm talking about - and if it doesn't work, it won't hurt anything at least.

Definitely, definitely, definitely get that IAC valve cleaned out, it has often been the culprit of similar problems for other members on here.

You said you have no CEL. You're positive your CEL bulb works though, right, it should illuminate with the key in the ACC position.

[rave2n]

You said you have no CEL. You're positive your CEL bulb works though, right, it should illuminate with the key in the ACC position.

Will do definately on cleaning that IAC.

Yea, I downloaded all the PDF's and printed them out today, and through the process of checking CEL light, and stored codes. I would just get no codes, it basically said everything is normal..even when doing test mode over normal. Thanks for all the help so far, been asking people i know at work, have got alot of "Oh well when I worked on my small block chevy"...yea..that doesn't help.

[rave2n]

Can't seem to find the IAC (if that is the name of it) in the haynes manual or anything.

I looked up the part, and it looks similiar to a item that resides right under, attached to the throttle body. Is that it?

[rave2n]

Pretty sure I found the problem...

I drove home today, same issues as stated in previous posts, lifted the hood and heard a buzzing noise I never heard before....It sounded like it was near the throttle body, I just trying to find it, and it turned out to be this thing.



.it had 2 lines coming from it, and a harness connector, and was mounted right above the firewall, one line going to the top of the intake manifold, the other seemed to be the bottom of the intake manifold. When removing it, the lines were fused together with the plastic, and just shattered inside the line...so need new lines, and whatever the hell that thing is. If it is the IAC, anyone have one of these laying around...cause they aren't cheap, and special order from Autozone or the simliar.

Side Note: Does anyone know what the hell that is? I cannot find it by part number, and from I've read on sites its saying it a A/C idle up valve, but searching for that at a parts store doesn't show anything...

I think its the vacuum solenoid valve

This post has been edited by rave2n: Mar 24, 2010 - 6:01 PM

[rave2n]

Finally found it. Its not for sale at any local joint.

http://www.toyotapartszone.com/oem/toyota~...8691-12180.html

Thats for anyone looking for it, cause it was a major pain in the ass to find. Ending up using Toyodiy.com or something like that, and searching for idle up and there she is. Took the part number and googled...hopefully they can get it here soon.

[Bigblock]

rave2n--
I gotta hand it to ya!!
I am learning Celica stuff as things need replaced // worked on.
6gc is a FANTASTIC family community!!

presure2 & GriffGirl, along with richee3 & some others I can't recall right now have been life savers!!

I wish you luck on this venture!!

[rave2n]

Yea the community here is a great help majority of the time. I always appreciate!

Good news, I found the part locally at a u-pull-it type joint. Of course the only cellie there was gutted, but a found a 96 geo prism LSi with the exact magnet valve (vsv) for 11.95 + 2.00. So thats alot better then what the dealer quoted...180...they can.....yea fill in the blanks =)

[rave2n]

Well to revive a semi-dead thread.

I've gone through the works to figure out this issue. TPS, IAC, TB itself, Fuel Filter, Fuel Pump, Distributor, Wires, Plugs, Timing, distributor, distributor cap. Checked all of it, and replaced anything that looking even slightly wrong or worn.

Anything that could be related to this problem, I've checked it and replaced anything that is slightly out of spec, even things I didn't need to change just cause I was tired of nothing fixing it.

Now, I've been shooting in the dark to possibly find this issue. Then I remembered my last oil change, I didn't do it myself, being I didn't want to have another dirty weekend. I took it to "Tire Kingdom" becaue I was getting an alignment done, so figured what the hell why not.

When the did the oil, they spilled a bit on the valve cover and altenator, and just left it there. I of course cleaned it off, and figured shouldn't be much a issue. Well 2 days after the change is when this issue arose. I spoke with someone at TK and they said sure bring'er in and we'll take a look (Probally because I've dropped 1600 bucks in 2 cars there within the last month). I get there, and the manager is present. He instantly starts arguing with me that its not the altenator, its my TPS. I inform him, my TPS is within spec, and all the other things I've replaced or fixed. He continues to treat me like I know nothing about a altenator...but the more he talks the more he shows his ignorance. Thus I ask him where his vehicle is, he informs me in the lot. I then ask him if i can dump some oil all over his altenator and then see how his car runs, then of course they kick me out.

Either way, I do not have the funds to replace it at the moment, being I want to go with a higher amp output altenator for future plans, but after all that i've done, its the only thing left. It just makes sense, oil on the bushings would ruin the surface area, thus less then required output of electricity is there when its needed (When I pound the gas).

The problem itself has evolved, it no longer stalls out, or do I have to tap the gas to get'er going.

It drives relatively normal except in idle, you can watch it randomly just drop and return, and some slight hesitation on lower RPM takeoffs. For instance taking a turn, dropping to second, with engine at 2k RPM it'll hesitate, but be gone once you pass 3k. This of course sounds like the TPS, but I've checked that several times.

[shoteh]

My car has been doing this for the last week or so as well. I was pretty scared and stopped driving it because I have almost an hour commute in stop and go traffic and that is when the car stalls the most, on low rpm. I too have had similar experiences as well with sputtering at low rpm, engine going up and down just like yours on your clip. Please keep my updated if there is any changes good or bad. I called a trusted mech and he said that it could be many things but if it's the Fuel pump then I should not continue to drive it until it get's replaced. But you said you already checked your pump right? I hope things get better for you. In the mean time I drive it every few days to close places but am too scared to drive it far. I get a few sputters every 5 minutes or so still.

[rave2n]

My car has been doing this for the last week or so as well. I was pretty scared and stopped driving it because I have almost an hour commute in stop and go traffic and that is when the car stalls the most, on low rpm. I too have had similar experiences as well with sputtering at low rpm, engine going up and down just like yours on your clip. Please keep my updated if there is any changes good or bad. I called a trusted mech and he said that it could be many things but if it's the Fuel pump then I should not continue to drive it until it get's replaced. But you said you already checked your pump right? I hope things get better for you. In the mean time I drive it every few days to close places but am too scared to drive it far. I get a few sputters every 5 minutes or so still.

Yea I wish I had a answer, I'm still looking myself. Its been worse the last few days, its comes and goes which makes me think its electrical.

I removed my TPS yesterday and checked continuity at .020 mm, and up. It seemed to be within specifications, but the haynes manual is very limited on information for the 7a-fe engine. The only one that was close to my TPS was the 3sge, all the others were only 3 pin connectors where as the 3s-ge was 4. So I just went off that.

I've been spraying carb cleaner in the altenator just for giggles, surprisingly it worked better for a few days after, payday is right around the corner, so I might just invest in another alt even though I was trying not to spend money on this engine being I was saving for the swap, but it appears you have to spend a little to get a little.

I hate to just throw money at the problem and hope I find the issue. I'm debating on just taking it to get a dianostics and hope they can just tell me what it is. I've probally already found the issue, just didn't realize it. Being mechanically inclined is great and all, but does make up for lack of experiance as i'm learning =P

[rave2n]

Would a timing belt possibly stretch?

Cause I checked my timing before, and it was fine, but at the time it wasn't having issues....

I just don't want to change it, if its not the problem, as its not a fun task

[longgone]

Would a timing belt possibly stretch?

Cause I checked my timing before, and it was fine, but at the time it wasn't having issues....

I just don't want to change it, if its not the problem, as its not a fun task

I had a similar problem with a bike I was driving it would run great until it warmed up
then it would sound like it was running on three cylinders
turns out it was the thermostat
by the time i figured it out I'd blown the head gasket

[rave2n]

If it was thermo wouldn't I overheat? - Temp is always the same.

[rave2n]

http://www.autotechonwheels.com/smfeb08.htm


I found that information quite interesting, its very similiar to the issue i'm having....changing the timing belt this weekend, shall be fun. Anyone have any tips, like where I should support the engine from once I remove the side mount? I have a couple big jacks and i figured a 2x4 to distribute the weight to support the engine, just don't want to damage the oil pan.

[longgone]

http://www.autotechonwheels.com/smfeb08.htm


I found that information quite interesting, its very similiar to the issue i'm having....changing the timing belt this weekend, shall be fun. Anyone have any tips, like where I should support the engine from once I remove the side mount? I have a couple big jacks and i figured a 2x4 to distribute the weight to support the engine, just don't want to damage the oil pan.

never seen that before but would be enough to do it

as for changing the timing belt I hope your changing the water pump
idler pulley and a new toyota tensioner cause this is a must for these type of engines
I used a jack with a piece of wood under the transmission to support the engine

[rave2n]

Yea, I was trying to ignore the fact to change those things, but it seems its gota be done.

Got a distributor on the way, should be here monday, slap that in. If its still there after I take the EGR valve off this weekend, then next weekend its timing belt, water pump, and tensioner...yay.

[rave2n]

Well, did the whole EGR thing this weekend. Didn't quite go as planned, stupid me forgot i had to plug the holes of the equipment i was removing, so i ended up putting it back on, and just blocking the EGR intake side with a piece of a aluminum can. Issue still there.

So distributor today, and fuel pump should be here tomorrow. Timing and teeth were all fine, belt appeared to have less then 20k on it.

Atleast through all this hell, I'll know for a fact everything I've messed with is now new or fixed =P

[rave2n]

Well...its solved, which might surprise some. It was the distributor...its been solid all day today. Heh, atleast its fixed.

[GriffGirl]

Congrats on getting it figured out... at least in the process, you learned a hell of a lot!

[rave2n]

Very very true, lol it was a crash course, but atleast now I don't look at the engine in utter confusion.

Lol all fixed, and have a walbro pump laying around for the swap one day, turned out aok.