How difficult do you think it would be to get from Fwd to Rwd? Options

[dudeofchaos]

I really love my car and plan on keeping it. I don't wanna sell it, never.
It's not something that I plan on doing soon cause I'm broke, but in a few years I will have my real job and I will probably work as a mecanical engineer and I may also have my mecanic's diploma.

I was wondering how difficult it would be to get from Fwd to Rwd? Could I just take the transmition and rear differencial from an Mr2 (which has the same engine which is good!) and I guess probably the cv axles and probably the suspention/steering-related parts like the tie rod ends and stuff and make them fit together and Voila?

I'm not good enoght right now to know what I shall do to do this conversion, but I will eventually go to school after I get my engineer diploma to learn all about mecanics.

(I plan on having a Rwd Celica and a 4wd Gt-Four later. I don't wanna buy a gt-four and convert it to rwd cause this way I would have to buy 2 gt-fours in the end. I'd rather get my Fwd Gts to rwd and then, later, buy a Gt-Four. So please don't tell me to buy a Gt-Four because ''it would be easier to swap'' )

Do you think it would be this ''simple'' or would I need to do a lot more things to get the rear wheels spinning?
I guess a celica would be easier than other cars to convert since there are a lot of bolt-on parts between the celica-mr2-gt4, am I right?

Well, thanks to those who answer me!

This post has been edited by dudeofchaos: Sep 25, 2010 - 5:53 PM

[JuMPiiN]

Simple, no. Anything is possible with money available. Are you saying you want the get the MR2 3s with tranny and diff and axles, and move everythting from the front to the back ? And basically have a trunk in the back ? To be honest Im not sure if the frame could support that. And that would take a insane amount of fab work., and prob enough money to buy a 97 Supra TT. I mean by all means go for it down the road as long as its just a project and not a DD you will finish it eventually. But me personally it wouldnt be worth it. Because every "performance" mod would have to be custom. Just seems like the reward isnt worth the sacrafice if you get what I mean.

[njccmd2002]

Ok, why not buy an mr2 and do the front end celica conversion and be done with it.

unless awd, but the conversion is costing around 10,000 to some folks.

[JuMPiiN]

Ok, why not buy an mr2 and do the front end celica conversion and be done with it.

unless awd, but the conversion is costing around 10,000 to some folks.

What he said. It would look kinda funny though.

[playr158]

oh man...have i ever been in your spot

Cut the firewall and floor pan and create a transmission tunnel.
Fabricate a rear end
fab a custom K frame
build custom engine mounts
mount engine + trans
buy a custom drive shaft
create custom steering rack
create custom front knuckles (can't use FWD knuckles because you'd be missing the center section)

easiest way is to mount the engine in the rear of the hatch chassis. Build a custom firewall.
fab the knuckles... /done

(Also google....W12 GTI)


http://www.team-integra.net/forum/display_...;TopicID=106670



This post has been edited by playr158: Sep 25, 2010 - 6:17 PM

[dudeofchaos]

Ok, why not buy an mr2 and do the front end celica conversion and be done with it.

unless awd, but the conversion is costing around 10,000 to some folks.

Cause I don't want a mid-engine. And I prefer the celica's look over the Mr2. As I said, it's not for now. It's something that I'll wanna do by myself later. I want my celica to be rwd, not another car.

[JuMPiiN]

All I have to say is goodluck, risk isnt worth reward. I think it would be cheaper to do AWD instead of RWD. But anything is possible with the right kind of money.

[dudeofchaos]

All I have to say is goodluck, risk isnt worth reward. I think it would be cheaper to do AWD instead of RWD. But anything is possible with the right kind of money.

I know, never said it would be easy nor cheap. But later when I'll have the time and money for it, I will probably do it.

[azian_advanced]

sounds like a big task.. you best to start practicing how to weld. it's nice to see another mechanical engineering student on the boards. i would love to do a rwd conversion on mine but lack the funds and welding experience. it would be a fun project though that's for sure.

i've thought about the concept of converting to MR than FR. it would look awesome in a hatch and put in a trd supercharged 2grfe while you're at it.

sample


^no firewall, don't do this!

This post has been edited by azian_advanced: Sep 25, 2010 - 8:57 PM

[njccmd2002]

^^^^ nice heater!!! good for cold weather.

[whatthe]

How loud would that be haha.

[dudeofchaos]

I'm mostly looking to keep the engine in the front. As I said, money is not something that bothers me cause it'll be something fun to do when I have the experience. I'm just asking what I shall change on the car to get it Rwd.

This post has been edited by dudeofchaos: Sep 25, 2010 - 10:34 PM

[dudeofchaos]

Simple, no. Anything is possible with money available. Are you saying you want the get the MR2 3s with tranny and diff and axles, and move everythting from the front to the back ? And basically have a trunk in the back ? To be honest Im not sure if the frame could support that. And that would take a insane amount of fab work., and prob enough money to buy a 97 Supra TT. I mean by all means go for it down the road as long as its just a project and not a DD you will finish it eventually. But me personally it wouldnt be worth it. Because every "performance" mod would have to be custom. Just seems like the reward isnt worth the sacrafice if you get what I mean.

Why do you say the frame would not support it?

[mkernz22]

He thought you were going to do a mid engine at first. If you did a mid engine, the frame of our car could and would not support the weight of the engine

[njccmd2002]

first of all

1. do you want
A: transverse mounted engine , need a special tranny or go awd
b: longitudinal mounted engine need to build a tranny tunnel and reinforce chassis, cut firewall, so chassis may go weak.

2. IRS differential or solid rear differential.

several options to consider. all can be done, be ready to fork out 10k+ in parts alone...

[richee3]

RWD Celica? You COULD do it yourself... Or you could just sit back and let Toyota do all the work. They did it back in 1978.



Then again in 1981.



Then again in 1986.



And in 1993, they really felt the need to outdo themselves.



What I'm getting at is that you CAN convert your Celica to RWD, but it's cheaper and easier to convert to AWD. And seeing as you're in Montreal, and you intend to buy a GT4 anyway, you're better off to just do that. I hope to see a RWD Celica. I really do. But if it was me, I'd spend the money on a Supra or a GT4. You spend less money and get a lot more.

This post has been edited by richee3: Sep 26, 2010 - 5:02 AM

[95celicastLSR]

you could just do the gt4 conversion and modify the trany and get rid of the front axles... that would be the most logical thing in my mind...Good luck though

[dudeofchaos]

I know, but since I will eventually make money later I will have many cars.. Gt4, Mr2, Supra and probably more, a lot more lol.

But I also want my Rwd Celica. Im also planning to buy a 1984 celica (Rwd) this winter. But I want my 6g to be Rwd.

first of all

1. do you want
A: transverse mounted engine , need a special tranny or go awd
b: longitudinal mounted engine need to build a tranny tunnel and reinforce chassis, cut firewall, so chassis may go weak.

2. IRS differential or solid rear differential.

several options to consider. all can be done, be ready to fork out 10k+ in parts alone...

I would stay with a transverse engine. Would an Mr2 tranny work you think?
But I dont know the difference between IRS and solid rear differential, sorry.

[JuMPiiN]

If you want it so badly..... buy a MR2 or somekind of Supra..... and just figure out a way to put a Celica body onto one of those frames... If you could figure that out it would save you plenty money.

What everyone above is saying there is no point in doing it. AWD, yea I can understand if you live in the states. But YOU live in Canada where you can just go buy a GT4 no questions asked.

There is no point in forking out roughly 10-20K in parts then fabricating everything, then hoping it works because you have NO GUIDELINES what so ever with this swap. Where as if you do decide to do the AWD conversion theres tons of information on here for that swap. I dont really see the point in doing a AWD conversion considering where you live you can just go buy a authentic GT4 for less than the conversion.

Im not saying or doubting your abilities to do either or. I just dont see the point in doing it when you can buy it for less than building it. Like i said before if your confident in doing it by all means go for it. It just doesnt make any sense to me in doing it when you can go buy it, or get the older celica and drop the Supra TT 2jz-gte in it and be done.

If you ask this crazy question get ready for crazy answers, your basically asking what everyone else asks when they first get the Celica, ( " How hard is it to put the 2jz into my Celica ?" )

Anything is possible. But is it worth it ? Probably not, literally every part on the car would have to be custom made. I could keep going on and on. But from the looks of it so far you already had your mind set on this before you even posted the thread.

[Smaay]

celicas were all RWD untill the 5th gen or was it the 4th?

[mkernz22]

5th gens were fwd

best of my luck to you man if you're really going to do the RWD conversion!
despite what everyone else says, I think it would be a great project. I would do it myself if I had the money because it would be a one of a kind for the 6th gens.
I've noticed that when someone goes to do something that has never been done, people are always against that idea, but when someone accomplishes something that no one else has done, then people want to do it what that person did.

[dudeofchaos]

celicas were all RWD untill the 5th gen or was it the 4th?

Gen 1-2-3 were Rwd, then 4-5-6-7 were fwd. In fact, Fwd appeared on the celicas as the Gt-four came out for the first time.

[dudeofchaos]

5th gens were fwd

best of my luck to you man if you're really going to do the RWD conversion!
despite what everyone else says, I think it would be a great project. I would do it myself if I had the money because it would be a one of a kind for the 6th gens.
I've noticed that when someone goes to do something that has never been done, people are always against that idea, but when someone accomplishes something that no one else has done, then people want to do it what that person did.

You know what?
That's EXACTLY what went through my mind 1 minute before reading your post. And that's what I plan to do. But I will never do it in any time soon. I'm only 19 and have a very SMALL budget since I'm still at school. But later I will have the abilities to do everything on my car and I will also have the means to do it too.

But for the moment, I'd like to have more power so I thought of the 3s-gte, but man.. I don't think this power in a Fwd car is worth it but it would still be better than the 5s-fe there already is in it.
So I think that for the moment I'll just keep it very clean and put money into it so that it looks good. And then, only then, when I'll have the knowledge and means to do it, I will surely do the Rwd convertion, and then 3s-gte .
I mean, I could have the 1st Rwd 6g celica

Until then, I'll keep daydreaming lol

This post has been edited by dudeofchaos: Sep 26, 2010 - 9:47 PM

[hatchy_gt-s]

Sorry to tell u this but no u won't have thw first rwd 6th gen it has been dun before. I am also currently doing my own with the alteza 3sge black top for my high performance grad project.

This post has been edited by hatchy_gt-s: Sep 27, 2010 - 9:11 AM

[b1gr3d]

Best thing to do is get a rwd donor that has or uses the same engine family that you want to use.

Also it probably won't be net as hard as everyone makes it out to be. You just need to be practical about how everything is set up and keep it all simple. Of course this is coming from the guy that is building a 70's civic to be a rwd motorcycle powered road racer with a space frame.....

[Smaay]

ok if you really want to go RWD its not that hard. get a full ST205 clip, take the tranny to a fabricator and have them weld the ports for the front axles closed. fab up the supports for the rear end and install that. thats about it, you are done. but why go through all that when you can have AWD.


AWD > RWD but then again it all depends on your application

[RUNNIN-LOW]

Sorry to tell u this but no u won't have thw first rwd 6th gen it has been dun before. I am also currently doing my own with the alteza 3sge black top for my high performance grad project.

yes what hatchy is planning on doing is correct.

if i wasnt planning on selling my car i would have done the same thing...the I.S. beams motor with tranny and using the gt4 rear diff.
the only difficult part would be deciding which steering rack to use...im not totally sure but i think the I.S. one would work but it will require some custom work. motor mounts for the motor would have to be custom, and the drive shaft would need to be custom and then the firewall would need to be cut. unless you use a tube front frame. (HARDTARGET has done this before but he used a tube front end and im not tottaly sure but his was made for track use.)

[dudeofchaos]

Oh, too bad if I'm not the 1st one then. I'll still be freakin proud haha

[czwalga]

Ehh, don't start planning stuff out that far ahead. Stuff, life, and goals change so quickly... No offense but after a few years of the same car, you'll probably realize there are better ways to spend your money, car related or otherwise.

[dudeofchaos]

Ehh, don't start planning stuff out that far ahead. Stuff, life, and goals change so quickly... No offense but after a few years of the same car, you'll probably realize there are better ways to spend your money, car related or otherwise.

Maybe. But I seriously don't think I'm going to change any time soon. The only thing I have in life is my car so there's nothing else I could spend my money into. Of course my life will change in the futur, but I doubt it will change enoght in a few years to change my mind. But I understand what you say, it's all true. Let's just hope I won't go this way

[JuMPiiN]

You shall change your mind ! haha jk, good luck bro, and what said about you could get the RWD black top BEAMS and use the GT4 rear diff that would prolly work out well.

Talk to Keith at RPMGarage, hes pretty cool and easy to work with. He's sourcing some S15 parts for me right now, so im sure he could find that setup easily.

[czwalga]

Ehh, don't start planning stuff out that far ahead. Stuff, life, and goals change so quickly... No offense but after a few years of the same car, you'll probably realize there are better ways to spend your money, car related or otherwise.

Maybe. But I seriously don't think I'm going to change any time soon. The only thing I have in life is my car so there's nothing else I could spend my money into. Of course my life will change in the futur, but I doubt it will change enoght in a few years to change my mind. But I understand what you say, it's all true. Let's just hope I won't go this way

I just know my last year of college, I went from having a supercharged mustang with a built rear. Was going to make it a 8 second car. Then I was buying a Viper GTS when I graduated, then I was buying a C6Z06, what end up happening was I sold my mustang, bought an rx7 and did a 2 year build on it.

[dudeofchaos]

You shall change your mind ! haha jk, good luck bro, and what said about you could get the RWD black top BEAMS and use the GT4 rear diff that would prolly work out well.

Talk to Keith at RPMGarage, hes pretty cool and easy to work with. He's sourcing some S15 parts for me right now, so im sure he could find that setup easily.

Why go with BEAMS engine instead of 3s-gte?

[richee3]

The 3S-GE Blacktop BEAMS came in the Toyota Altezza and is already configured for RWD. It's mounted longitudinally, not transverse. The 3S-GTE is transverse mounted. So the Blacktop BEAMS is a better choice for a RWD only setup as far as mounting is concerned.

[JuMPiiN]

Exactly what he said above.

[BonzaiCelica]

probably be better off buying a coroll ae86 and doing an 3sge blacktop in their, and then get the weight ration perfectly at 50/50. since the 3sge is heavier than the 4age. im not putting you down or anything just a suggestion

[mkernz22]

also with the beams, you could turbo it, it wouldn't be that hard at all.

[Johnnyny]

also with the beams, you could turbo it, it wouldn't be that hard at all.

no!

[BonzaiCelica]

also with the beams, you could turbo it, it wouldn't be that hard at all.

no!

haha yes I agree N/A all the way check out this video, this is why I love N/A engines!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHmP-xUK6-E

[mkernz22]

so i guess i shouldn't have mentioned that lol...

[coldbluesteel]

Well, I understand exactly where your coming from. I had planned and started to implement a RWD conversion on my 94GT. You can look up my old post if you want some more info. Basically the plan was gut and rebuild. I wanted some real power so I was building a twin turbo LS1. If your going to go through all the trouble of a conversion, why put a 200-300 HP motor in? You could do a Lexus 1uzfe and build that to about 400HP if you want to save some money( that has been installed a 5th gen alltrac before)
As said before you'll have to make room for a transmission. There is already room for a drive shaft because of the shared chassis with GT4. You'll have to figure out a custom suspension and steering set-up. Of course you'll have to reinforce all the cutting your doing, and to support the increase in power and torque forces.

You could order up a rear end from a GT4, which is nice because it pretty much bolts in with a little fab work and it has a Torsen differential. Should be good to about 400HP, maybe more. You would need a custom drive shaft regardless. Another good option is to use the suspension from a Mustang Cobra, because its more robust and the dimensions are pretty close. You'll need a custom fuel tank, as the one you have now is in the way. Fuel cell in the trunk is a good option.

If that sounds like more than your ready to tackle you could take it to a shop that specializes in custom fab vehicles. Most quotes I got were in the 20K-30K range.

Hit me with any questions you have.

[coldbluesteel]

also with the beams, you could turbo it, it wouldn't be that hard at all.

Why would you turbo a high compression motor, instead of just installing one that is factory set up with turbo (3sgte) which cost less than a beams anyway. You could do 4age or 4agze.

[mkernz22]

just forget i even mentioned it lol

[blu94gt]

Ehh, don't start planning stuff out that far ahead. Stuff, life, and goals change so quickly... No offense but after a few years of the same car, you'll probably realize there are better ways to spend your money, car related or otherwise.

This.

OP: You're how old? I'm assuming 18 or 19 since you're just going into school. What exactly are you studying, because I'm confused if it's mechanical engineering or auto-mechanic's school. Neither of which will just magically give you the skills to do a swap like this in a few years. I completed a 2 year auto mechanic's program here, which taught some good information but it was basically just enough to start apprenticing at a shop: basically changing tires, brakes, and oil while learning more on the job. Finishing up my engineering degree now, and there is pretty much nothing like that taught at an engineering school unless you go to a specialty school.

I don't know if any colleges in Canada participate in Formula SCE, but it's the only university-based club that actually would teach you some good fabricating and custom skills. It's basically a competition where you make a custom kart as light as you can with a 600cc or less motor. TONS of custom work, there's a good opportunity to learn a lot.

As far as planning, seriously don't plan that far ahead, especially when you don't know what your skillset will be. When I was 19 I had my 94 Celica and swore I would keep it until it had a million miles on it. What do you know after a year of driving that car I realized that it would never do what I wanted it to performance-wise without a ton of money and work, so I sold it for a Subaru WRX. Swore I'd keep that car, but 2 years later got a Lexus and a Miata, etc etc. Now I'm back in a 99 Celica but I KNOW it will never do anything more for me than be a fun and reliable DD, for even the cost of a swap I could purchase a lot of other proper sports cars.

I'm not really trying to discourage you from dreaming big, but for what knowledge you have both of your car and what all you can do to it, right now you are dreaming BIG. Why do you want to go RWD so bad? Do you even have much experience driving RWD cars and know what their true advantages are?

[SwissFerdi]

just forget i even mentioned it lol

No, now you have to live with the consequences of your action, and let me tell you my friend...those consequences are dire.

[dudeofchaos]

Ehh, don't start planning stuff out that far ahead. Stuff, life, and goals change so quickly... No offense but after a few years of the same car, you'll probably realize there are better ways to spend your money, car related or otherwise.

This.

OP: You're how old? I'm assuming 18 or 19 since you're just going into school. What exactly are you studying, because I'm confused if it's mechanical engineering or auto-mechanic's school. Neither of which will just magically give you the skills to do a swap like this in a few years. I completed a 2 year auto mechanic's program here, which taught some good information but it was basically just enough to start apprenticing at a shop: basically changing tires, brakes, and oil while learning more on the job. Finishing up my engineering degree now, and there is pretty much nothing like that taught at an engineering school unless you go to a specialty school.

I don't know if any colleges in Canada participate in Formula SCE, but it's the only university-based club that actually would teach you some good fabricating and custom skills. It's basically a competition where you make a custom kart as light as you can with a 600cc or less motor. TONS of custom work, there's a good opportunity to learn a lot.

As far as planning, seriously don't plan that far ahead, especially when you don't know what your skillset will be. When I was 19 I had my 94 Celica and swore I would keep it until it had a million miles on it. What do you know after a year of driving that car I realized that it would never do what I wanted it to performance-wise without a ton of money and work, so I sold it for a Subaru WRX. Swore I'd keep that car, but 2 years later got a Lexus and a Miata, etc etc. Now I'm back in a 99 Celica but I KNOW it will never do anything more for me than be a fun and reliable DD, for even the cost of a swap I could purchase a lot of other proper sports cars.

I'm not really trying to discourage you from dreaming big, but for what knowledge you have both of your car and what all you can do to it, right now you are dreaming BIG. Why do you want to go RWD so bad? Do you even have much experience driving RWD cars and know what their true advantages are?

Yes we have that formula at my school. Was actually planning to get in it this year.
I know, everything you said is true, but it's something I'd like to do some day.

[dudeofchaos]

Well, I understand exactly where your coming from. I had planned and started to implement a RWD conversion on my 94GT. You can look up my old post if you want some more info. Basically the plan was gut and rebuild. I wanted some real power so I was building a twin turbo LS1. If your going to go through all the trouble of a conversion, why put a 200-300 HP motor in? You could do a Lexus 1uzfe and build that to about 400HP if you want to save some money( that has been installed a 5th gen alltrac before)
As said before you'll have to make room for a transmission. There is already room for a drive shaft because of the shared chassis with GT4. You'll have to figure out a custom suspension and steering set-up. Of course you'll have to reinforce all the cutting your doing, and to support the increase in power and torque forces.

You could order up a rear end from a GT4, which is nice because it pretty much bolts in with a little fab work and it has a Torsen differential. Should be good to about 400HP, maybe more. You would need a custom drive shaft regardless. Another good option is to use the suspension from a Mustang Cobra, because its more robust and the dimensions are pretty close. You'll need a custom fuel tank, as the one you have now is in the way. Fuel cell in the trunk is a good option.

If that sounds like more than your ready to tackle you could take it to a shop that specializes in custom fab vehicles. Most quotes I got were in the 20K-30K range.

Hit me with any questions you have.

Hmm, thanks man, I sure will come to you if I have questions! But I'm looking to stay as close to OEM as possible (ironical don't you think? lol) so I'm just going to stick with the 3sgte.

[azian_advanced]

you should definitely join if you haven't already. for anyone taking a mechanical engineering degree and want to pursue in automotive engineering, you will have a MUCH better chance of getting a job with SAE in your background. it will probably have a bigger impact than your GPA. the big motor companies in detroit won't hire any engineers without any SAE experience just fyi.

[dudeofchaos]

you should definitely join if you haven't already. for anyone taking a mechanical engineering degree and want to pursue in automotive engineering, you will have a MUCH better chance of getting a job with SAE in your background. it will probably have a bigger impact than your GPA. the big motor companies in detroit won't hire any engineers without any SAE experience just fyi.

The only problem is that I live in eastern Canada.. Not much of a chance I get a job related to cars' engineering. I will have to move to the USA if I want a car-related job. Otherwise I'll just stay here and get a different job. I'm not necessarely thinking about getting a job that involes cars, but I would like to. Anyways, the futur only will tell me my futur job lol.

But I will look at this for sure. I will probably join the SAE formula. But we are the only ''Cegep'' (You guys don't have this where you are, it's between high school and university.. Pretty much like college.) that participates in the SAE formula in America I heard. The rest are all Universities. So I have a lot of time ahead to get in it, still 2 years of Cegep and then a minimum of 3 other years of Uni.

This post has been edited by dudeofchaos: Oct 1, 2010 - 6:40 PM