Swap harness question, 7afe to 4age Options

[96stgreendemon]

So im still a little confused on what all is involved when swapping the wiring from the 7a to the 4age.
The wiring harness has to be extended and some parts of the 7a tied into it correct?
Just confused on what all is involved in the task, if someone could clear this up for me it would be greatly appreciated

[richee3]

The wiring harness doesn't necessarily have to be extended. You can cut a new hole in the firewall to run the harness through to the ECU. Check out Batman722's swap thread for a reference of where to cut the hole at.

[96stgreendemon]

Ok let me get this, so does the ecu just connect to stock pin outs for the interior then the same way as the 7a ecu does?

[PhoenixTech]

So im still a little confused on what all is involved when swapping the wiring from the 7a to the 4age.
The wiring harness has to be extended and some parts of the 7a tied into it correct?
Just confused on what all is involved in the task, if someone could clear this up for me it would be greatly appreciated

Are you swapping in a 20v? If so, send your harness to Tweak'd Performance for a plug and play conversion. e-mail me. contact@tweakdperformance.com

[96stgreendemon]

Yeah its going to be a 20v swap, you have mail

[95CelicaST]

As I stated in another thread, mr220v on mr2oc and mr2.com will do a PnP harness as well for a couple hundred less than dr. tweak wants.

He can be reached at : mr220v@gmail.com

This post has been edited by 95CelicaST: Jan 21, 2011 - 4:13 PM

[PhoenixTech]

Yeah its going to be a 20v swap, you have mail

You have a reply

[richee3]

Definitely swapping a 20V in, Kyle?

[96stgreendemon]

Its looking that way, still looking between a silvertop and blacktop, more towards the blacktop though, i dont plan to boost it so its the better option.
I went this way because im not really looking for a 260 hp fwd car, this will be a nice 160 ish with lsd which is all i really need and its a little more budget friendly

[richee3]

Awesome! I've been trying to convince people to swap lately. I kinda wish my project car was an ST so I could do a 4A swap.

[96stgreendemon]

Yeah, and it just seems like there are not enough 20 valve swaps on here, and i believe that i will be the first documented blacktop swap on the site

This post has been edited by 96stgreendemon: Jan 22, 2011 - 5:04 PM

[SupraKid]

Youll be the first DOCUMENTED swap, if you do do it.

http://www.6gc.net/celicas/1995-st-coupe-8975
http://www.6gc.net/celicas/1994-st-coupe-6030

Im gonna have to fully rebuild my 7a this summer, and if the cost isnt much more i may throw in a 4age instead.

[96stgreendemon]

Eh i was looking at a rebuild on the 7a, but by the time i priced everything i was almost to the same price as it would be to swap, and a few more ponies wouldnt be so bad lol

[95CelicaST]

160ish from a Blacktop?

Try 135whp. For real.

[richee3]

^^ Which is what the 5S gets to the crank. Not a bad improvement from the 7A at all.

I couldn't agree with you more, Kyle. There are only a handful of 20V swaps that I know of on the site, and I believe only one member actually still posts. And the Blacktop swap would be loads of fun. Plus you can pick up the 20V pretty cheap compared to the 3S-GTE/BEAMS. It's not a bad swap at all. Some people complain about the lack of torque, but it's still a major upgrade from the 7A.

[lagos]

^^ Which is what the 5S gets to the crank. Not a bad improvement from the 7A at all.

Your talking about a 10-20 wheel hp difference over a 5sfe. Is that honestly worth all the work and money that it takes to swap a car?

[95CelicaST]

The 20v is a cool swap for a show car, but in reality the Celica is just too heavy for that motor.

[96stgreendemon]

Yes i know that its not a big improvement, but im not looking for alot of power, my engine is on its way out and the swap can be done for not too much money, i have looked into the 3sgte and for me at the time its too much money. Besides i dont really plan on driving fast, i rarely do, my car is built for backroads, and the big perk of the blacktop it the weight of it and the one i have been looking at has an lsd tranny, which is what im looking for most, it may not be what everyone thinks is the best swap for the car but it's something different

[richee3]

Your talking about a 10-20 wheel hp difference over a 5sfe. Is that honestly worth all the work and money that it takes to swap a car?

I forget the exact hp of the 7A, but wouldn't the 20V be something like a 40 whp improvement over the 7A?

[95CelicaST]

Figure about 40whp, but the torque curve isn't the same. It feels/is slower because you don't get peak torque until somewhere in the 6k rpm range.

[96stgreendemon]

Wait, it feels slower?

[delusionz]

20v's heavily rely on the close ratio gear boxes theyre usually mated up to.

i dont know about at200 celicas but i know that ae111 corolla/trueno/levin for the same gear and the same speed, when a 3s/5s powered celica cruises at 2000rpm those 20v's cruise at 3000rpm for the same speed, and its not until 5th or 6th gear that the revs are the same as what a celica cruises at.


what this means in effect is... if u keep ur standard gearbox, and say if 2nd gear used to redline at 60mph and 6000rpm then with the 20v in 2nd gear your redline (and peak power) will be at 80mph and 8000rpm. this means ull never be in power band when u go around corners unless ur still in 1st gear, but thats ok, its no worse than before since your 7a never made any power anyways.

i dont know if u can use the 6 speed gearbox in ur celica that high spec blacktop cars had, but atleast get the 5 speed that they also came with.


EDIT: oh and the other thing is 20v's rely on the lightweightness of the car. in a 20v powered car the only way they can punch as hard as a celica from 3000rpm is by having 200kgs less weight.

This post has been edited by delusionz: Jan 24, 2011 - 11:44 AM

[96stgreendemon]

Im planning to use the 5 speed LSD transmission that is already bolted up to the engine so gearing will reamain the same as in the levin

[95CelicaST]

the 5sp is still a c52 transmission, so unless they geared it differently, it'll be the same.

A c60 with lsd would be nice, but they're fragile.

To liven it up, get your hands on a toda flywheel, t3 velocity stacks with jubiride mesh screens, and that's about all you can do to the 20v... Don't expect it to be very fast. It won't accelerate as well as the 7a, but it'll make beautiful noise as it does.

[96stgreendemon]

Bump, anyone with a 20v have any imput? i know the yeli celi was a 20v but anyone else?

[SupraKid]

Netrata in the 808 has a silvertop

This post has been edited by SupraKid: Jan 24, 2011 - 2:30 PM

[95CelicaST]

When I had the Yelli Celi dynoed it put down 130whp/130tq

The tuner, who specializes in the 4ag platform told me to expect 5whp difference with a blacktop, but no tq change.

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's an awesome motor and fun to drive, but it NEEDS to be above 5k rpm at all time to really shine.

[96stgreendemon]

Hmm..... Well depending on the price difference i may be going with a silvertop... who knows, i've been on club4ag alot lately doing some research and alot of them say there is a difference weather large or small because of the head having a diffrent port and having lighter rods and pistons allowing it to rev higher with less friction.... i guess back to researching

[delusionz]

silvertop vs blacktop?? the torque is the same. how much torque can u get from 1.6L anyways? the blacktop is able to rev 600rpm higher to account for 5hp. lol

[95CelicaST]

Wrong.

Peak power is made in the 6k rpm range... Which leaves both motors over 2k rpm left to run out.

[presure2]

swap a 4a, be prepared for disappointment.
you wont say it, cause you'll wanna cover your own a$$ in the end, but first time you ride in a 3s swapped 6gc, or even a beams swap, you'll wish you'd not spent your money on the 4a.

[96stgreendemon]

So basically the 4age is just a waste of money?

[SupraKid]

Not if you HAVE to rebuild your 7afe...I mean yes it wouldnt compare to a 3sg(t)e swap. But it is a crap load cheap and easier for us ST guys, plus you wont get get 20mpg premium like all the 3sgte swaps

[95st-celica]

if your looking for an N/A motor to build and keep N/A, and want somewhere close to the 200hp mark, i would highly suggest the beams swap. It's probably one of the easiest, best bang for your buck N/A engines that you can swap into the celica.

If you want something very close to N/A power but not turboed, the 4AGZE is another great choice. I remember someone posted a link to ebay where someone had swaped a 4agze into a 6th gen, and weither the numbers were correct or not, i remember it was somewhere around 180, which is respectable.

[96stgreendemon]

Im in need of a rebuild, but i also need to look at putting new timing system, water pump, thermostat, ignition, wires, velocity stacks, possibly webcams, and a few other odds and ends on the 4a if and when i do get it so i have to look at that also

[95CelicaST]

Webcams isn't going to get you cams for a 20V.

HKS (~$1000 for a pair), or Toda (good luck), or nothing.

[SupraKid]

Kyle do you plan to swap the tranny as well?Or keep your c52?Because if your gonna tranny swap id def go beams.

[delusionz]

Wrong.

Peak power is made in the 6k rpm range... Which leaves both motors over 2k rpm left to run out.

Wrong.

Peak torque starts at 6 yes, peak horsepower no.

the AE101 Levin redlines 500 or 600 short of 8000, the AE111 Levin redlines right on 8000, both motors make their peak horsepower right on the redline as do other 4 cyl GE engined cars of it's time such as the SS-II and SS-III Celicas.

If you're dropping off after 6k rpm it may have something to do with the bt ecu and silvertop setup you had.

[97lestyousay]

The 4a is a good motor I would take a 16V 4AGE over a 7afe any day, yes the 4a makes more power up top but they are
not the puny little wimp for low end. I have thought about swapping my 7a with the 140 hp16V 4AGE I have sitting in my garage.
I haven't because I really want a 3rd gen 3s. I would think about what you really want, for a basic commuter engine, the 4a is a
helluva lot more fun than a 7a to drive. The main problem is, even if you spend a ton of money to build the engine, turbo, ect, it is
still going to be less power than a stock 3rd gen 3s, with nowhere to go after that.

If I remember correct, Coomer put a 7A geared tranny in the yelli celi, so it is going probably seem different than a 4A geared tranny,
as far as low end.

[richee3]

It wouldn't be that much more difficult to swap a BEAMS into an ST. Just need a few little things. But the issue that I see is cost. The 20V can be had for a lot less than a BEAMS. It seems like in all the posts I've read, the 4A will actually cost you power on the low end over the 7A. The 7A will pull harder from a stop. But as far as options go, you have the 7A-FTE, which will mean a full rebuild of your engine plus all the added items for the turbo build. Then you have the 4A series engines, the 4A-GZE being the best, of course. But I don't really see how you can go wrong with a Silvertop over the 7A. Yes, you may have to rev it hard to get any power, but you have to do that with an S2000 as well, and people never complain about that. Besides, quite frankly, you have to rev the 7A as hard as you can and it never rewards you with more power like the 4A-GE will.

There are pros and cons to the swap, obviously. Cons being less low end power, pros are more top end power and cost/ease to swap as opposed to the 3S's you could get.

[njccmd2002]

4A Swaps sound cool and all, but really, what are the gains? spend all that money for not much gain, in the long run youll be dissapointed, might as well go trade your st for a GT, and there u go. Swapped.

No heading u for a beams swap, but why not a V6. they are becoming more popular if u dont want to hassle with a turbo.

heck, dont the 7a trannies bolt to the newer celica engines/ (maybe im wrong). Well may be a lot of fab...

anyways, do something that in the long run youll learn to appreciate, and not get aggravated..

[SupraKid]

You guys are looking at this like he wants to swap for power reasons. He HAS to rebuild his current engine, and isnt the 6gc moto"if it breaks upgrade it?" Hes not looking for power, hes looking to have his car running strong, and if it would only be a few hundred more to get some more power, then why not?

[njccmd2002]

two things..

Whatever rocks your Boat!

Do it rite the first time!

Pick one...

[96stgreendemon]

Here is the thing, yes like i have said and suprakid has said the engine needs to be rebuilt or replaced, and being a college student commuting over 60 miles a day having decent gas mileage and a reliable engine is a must, yes a 3s would be cool but then you have to put premium in it and get about 20mpg? I do enjoy beating the living hell out of the car on occasion, but it is a DD above all. I would like turbo but then again reliability issue, not saying the 3s has reliability issues but im just going for a swap for a good price that is going to serve me well untill i graduate in 3 years and get another DD, then maybe a 3sgte, but this just seems like a good idea for the time being

This post has been edited by 96stgreendemon: Jan 25, 2011 - 11:49 AM

[Keiri]

If those are your reasons then I'd say you're right for going with a 4A if it's price-competitive with just rebuilding your 7A; newer engine with a little more "oomph" for a bit more cost-wise than your 7A.

I'm in the same boat but I'm going to go with Dan's second recommendation; rebuilding my 5S and then turboing it next year if I don't buy another car.

Good luck either way and have fun!

[HectortheRican]

I used to be so set on swapping in a 20V, but after reading this, I think I'm going with a BEAMS, which was my first choice. Mpg doesn't matter to me because I was only gonna swap in the motor when I can retire my Celica from DD duty. Until then, I was just gonna get the suspension nice and tight and keep the 7A running at least. Hell, since I won't be DD'ing it, I might as well buy a super cheap GT shell, stick the BEAMS in there, and transfer all the yummy goodies from my ST.

Good luck with whatever you go with, Kyle

[96stgreendemon]

I still plan to go with the 20 valve now, i actually found the wiring diagram today so thats off my list, just need to find one for the 7a now and figure out what wires need to be moved

[96stgreendemon]

Bump.... back on topic, does anyone know which wires need to be moved from each harness for this to work?