FT-86 GT FOUR project ( Feeler) 56K Cruel Death, Really going out into dreamspace right now but brainstorming fun Options

[Neon90424]

My idea is this bear with me before just calling me stupid or saying it cannot be done or that I am plain dreaming.

Get this

add this




racing springs



get yamaha to make this top for the 3S



Slap this on with this




This to control the power



This with a 6spd and this





This for stable running in rally mode



This surge tank



W2A intercooler

Put all that into this



Put this in that



And help that thing get a hood like this






Now my thinking is this...IF somehow I can acquire an FT-86 shell, Create a 5th Gen 3S-GTE that has VVT-i with 400HP capable, slap on Superstruts and 4WD (New WRC rules stat that computers can not control AWD anymore so that the driver actually does some driving) and Test this thing in the Paraguayan Chaco rally (which trust me Is dry nasty and tough enough to test for problems, Dakar wants 4 million dollars from the government to pass thru there lol) I Want to talk to Toyota to release this FT-86 as the Fifth GT-FOUR (165,185,205,246,286??) make 2,500 units with a special Rallye Type N badge (Honda's got Type R why not have type N?) I think maybe just maybe We could jump start toyota back into rallying or atleast selling decent cars meant for rallying, get that much needed VVTi on a great engine which can be sold as sets like hot bread in the racing market (who wouldn't want a fully built VVT-i forged 400hp Beast)

dilemma would be how the hell to get an FT-86 shell and how to get yamaha to make me a VVT-i valvetrain for the 3S


Brainstorming Ideas and general flaming mode on

[D-Man]

I'm just going to leave this right here:




And i do apreciate your want to have TRD back in the game, and as a serious player. The mounting would have to be all custom as the FT-86 is with a boxter engine, right? It could be done though.

Your biggest issue is obviously funds. and i'm pretty sure no amount of petitioning would get the capitol raised. Nice concept on a concept car's redesigned concept though.

ultimately there are bigger and badder engines out there than the 3s- that's the biggest point of fail IMHO. I'd honestly like to see Toyota bring something new and quite heavy to the table. Sadly though, Toyota is holding down the market on gas economy, and really riding that train hard.

[Neon90424]

I Dunno about you guys but I sure as hell would be pissed to sit in a Toyota that has a boxer engine in it...Might as well open a KKK recruitment center in harlem It just doesnt sit in right as awesome as It might be...

Bigger or badder engines might not be the point from what I have seen the 3S is tough as nails and the only **** that breaks down in it are the goddamn pistons, It would be cheaper than re designing a new engine and the funds aren't a problem


Bigger and Badder engines have to endure a this rally though and rallying is basically running the engine in an oven

This post has been edited by Neon90424: Feb 13, 2011 - 1:37 PM

[Spider77]

Don't hate on the pancake!

[Neon90424]

What does that even mean?

[D-Man]

What does that even mean?

x2

[Keiri]

Pancake = Boxer engine.

So called because it's a flat H engine as opposed to the inline or V-bank engines.

Noobs.

PS: I'll take the 2.5L boxer in the FT-86, turbocharge it, and never look back at my 5S.

[D-Man]

I never heard that term before. (someone spray him with the fire extinguisher please)

And i do understand the boxter engine has higher compression ratio than the 5s. So i must agree. Although it'd be a funny looking ex.manifold.

Or twice as expensive for small turbochargers....

But again, I'm really open to the idea of bringing new engines to the table; and not reviving dead dogs. No offense to the 3s comunity, But really. Anyone who's swaped an engine can apreciate the demand for a better engine. Our Celica's will always want a 3s for the power/ease of the swap.

But even celica went to ZZ engines. And that 2z has quite the big fat aggressive cam... i'm just sayin...

[95CelicaST]

I have a Subaru, and I haven't even heard that one.



furthermore...

Might as well open a KKK recruitment center in harlem It just doesnt sit in right as awesome as It might be...

ummmmmmmmmmmmm what?




edit: in addition, this is a 1MZ


This post has been edited by 95CelicaST: Feb 13, 2011 - 6:19 PM

[D-Man]

Might as well open a KKK recruitment center in harlem It just doesnt sit in right as awesome as It might be...

ummmmmmmmmmmmm what?

I can't believe i missed that. Damn, i'm off my game.

+50 Points 95celi.

This post has been edited by D-Man: Feb 13, 2011 - 6:15 PM

[Neon90424]

The As Awesome as it might be applied to the boxer engine, The ZZ engine is nice but I dont think it can take the beef of 400HP without compromising the lower end. About the cams you missed the part of asking yamaha to re do the valve train with VVT-i and I'm thinking 272 cams...

Celicas went to the ZZ engine because of its gas mileage not its performance, that engine is a joke compared to where the ST205 was going it kept climbing from 200hp to 260 with plenty of room for improvement with just injectors FPR fuel pump and beefier turbo...its like taking the new EVO 11 and putting in a 1.8 NA 200hp engine in it... a giant WTF


Im thinking this FT-86 lower center of gravity and what not is a light car...the 3S is a pretty amazing engine and in no way a dead dog to me...You keep saying its an old thing like they can put something newer in it? Like that Ford 150 comercial advertising oil squirters and vvt-i as If its goddamn state of the art... What would you change in the 3S that a newer engine has? give it 4 and a half pistons?

The celica only needed to be lighter and It would be the perfect car its only drawback has always been its weight...and its crappy headlights...THIS FT-86 with lightweight with a heavy 3s infront will give it orgasmic oversteer with 4x4 screw its low center of gravity boxer engine for what? its not even going to rally its gonna be rich kids doing light to light drag races and when this thing is like 6 years old we might be able to afford one and 3s swap it and put speed holes in it

[playr158]

as good as the 3sgte is, its OLD school tech. use a modern more efficient motor..i'd take a subi engine they sound t3h s3x

This post has been edited by playr158: Feb 13, 2011 - 8:07 PM

[SupraKid]

i'd take a subi engine they sound t3h s3x

If you wanna try to change toyotas lineup i suggest you learn Japanese

This post has been edited by SupraKid: Feb 13, 2011 - 8:18 PM

[95CelicaST]

You kids need to go drive a subaru. You'll forget about that 3s in no time.

[Neon90424]

You kids need to go drive a subaru. You'll forget about that 3s in no time.

You Should drive a 205, You'll laugh at the subaru later...


What makes a modern efficient motor more efficient?

You think subies sound good? ever heard 272 cams on the 3s? now thats a rev happy purr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RCEgqJJ2Vw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysRQvDsBcUw...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jza2_wYvfts...feature=related

Whoever willi is...his exhaust note makes me sh*t my pants

[njccmd2002]

keep it coming....

This post has been edited by njccmd2002: Feb 13, 2011 - 9:01 PM

[95CelicaST]

I've actually driven a 185 with a 205 swap and mods...



I'd still take the scoob. Its quicker. It sounds better. The seats are more supportive. The interior is more spacious. It has better fuel economy. Its more reliable.

I can go on for days.

[BLINKYxMUNKEY]

You kids need to go drive a subaru. You'll forget about that 3s in no time.

I love my 11 WRX, but the punch the 3sgte in the Celica is huge. I really do enjoy both, and really don't think you can count the 3s out. Overall though, I feel like my WRX hatch is the better car.

This post has been edited by BLINKYxMUNKEY: Feb 13, 2011 - 9:20 PM

[Neon90424]

well 1999 vs 2011 is a lot ofcourse it will get better mileage have better seats and have more interior room with 4 doors

[richee3]

I see both sides of the argument. The 3S-GTE really is an old-school engine, using old technology to squeeze out hp. Today's engines all use VVT and other technology to get the same power that older motors struggled to get. The OP acknowledges that argument, then says to update the 3S-GTE using today's technology so that it isn't so outdated. However, in doing that, the 3S would no longer be a 3S. Literally every aspect of the motor would be changed. You might still have a 2 liter turbocharged engine, but it wouldn't be from the 3S series of engines.

Toyota has an image to uphold. Right now they are an eco-friendly retirement-car company. That's why if such a machine as the OP's dream was ever built, it would be badged as a Lexus.

[95CelicaST]

Instead of all of this work for a 3s, why don't we take a 2gr+6sp or auto with paddles and stick that in the ft-86. Instant winner.

Maybe even make a sport trim with a trd supercharger. Cheap for toyota, fun for you and me.

This post has been edited by 95CelicaST: Feb 13, 2011 - 10:13 PM

[easternpiro1]

Both sides strike some great points, im a 3s loyalist, and can not speak on any subie let alone any AWD since ive never driven one, but whats this i hear about the subie turbo boxer motor being fuel effecient?! i thought they sucked at gas mileage!

This post has been edited by easternpiro1: Feb 13, 2011 - 10:21 PM

[95CelicaST]

My wrx regularly gets 25mpg. On a trip from Seattle to Bend, OR I got over 30mpg.

[playr158]

Instead of all of this work for a 3s, why don't we take a 2gr+6sp or auto with paddles and stick that in the ft-86. Instant winner.

Maybe even make a sport trim with a trd supercharger. Cheap for toyota, fun for you and me.

SENSE................it has been made

[Neon90424]

3.5 is not a rally engine remember people this will be used in a rally

[95CelicaST]

The Subaru might be, but Toyota was banned from rally.

[Culpable04]

In 1995 TTE was famously banned for 12 months from the WRC for cheating by designing a illegal air restrictor on the ST205 that included both a bypass mechanism and spring loaded devices to conceal it from scrutineers.[1] In the 1996 and 1997, despite lack of works team appearance in 1996 due to the ban, TTE supported the Celica ST205 rallied by Italian HF Grifone Team, Toyota Team Sweden, Marlboro Toyota Team Belgium, and Tein Sport in the selected WRC events, before introduced the Corolla WRC in the 1997 Rally of Finland. When they returned to the WRC for 1998, they did so with a Corolla driven by the crews of Carlos Sainz/Luis Moya and Didier Auriol/Denis Giraudet. They finished the season in second overall in both the Drivers' and Constructors' Championships.

[95CelicaST]

And they haven't been back since. When was the last wrc event that had a Toyota in it?

[playr158]

Lol toyota hasn't built anything src worthy since 1999. Woohoo. WRC Camery?! Ftl

[Culpable04]

last offici8al race was in 1999, but read, there may be some hope for us

Click here ~!


my thing has always been about taste, from your comments sounds like you really love your Subaru, and that's great, but for obvious reasons others love the 3Sgte engine, when you consider the amount of technology that car manufacturers have incorporated on their cars / engines design in the last decade, and realized that the 3SGTE is an outdated design and still performs up to the task, is just fair to give recognition and not look down on those who want some more of it.

I personally don't like Subarus as a car for me to own, but they are great cars, fast, affordable and reliable, my brother loves them and so do a lot of my friends who own them, but when they test drove my car, they were impressed but its performance and without argument a few of them agreed that my car would be faster ( we didn't race ) at the end of the day is not about who owns the best car, but who can make the best out of what it has. I get ~ 28 mpg, I drive my swapped car every single day ( 90 miles round trip ) and of course that's with occasional boost, with no reliability issues.

am I saying 3sgte is a better engine than those in STIs ? nop, but I will say that a STI engine wouldn't make me happier.

[salv]

Corolla WRC came in after the ST205 ban.

I can already see upcoming release of the FT86. First of all, It will most likely be a Scion brand car here in North America and Toyota everywhere else. Scion just made it to Canada and the sales for these cars are weaaaaakkkkkk to say the least. Scion's target market is the youth (19-27) and so the FT86 is a suitable car in Scions line up.

FT86 will be priced under 22k and won't any higher then 30k fully loaded.

The FT86 only has its RWD and light weight savings going for it. An NA boxer with under 200hp is still pretty weak. I think the Subaru variant will be the one we should all be looking forward to!

3SGTE AWD in an FT86... I'd rather buy an Evo with that money hahaha

[Neon90424]

all I can say about that is this...



a 3SGTE 4WD FT-86 GT FOUR would only be like 5-8 grand more and I guarantee you would hand the EVO its ass on a platter seeing as it will be putting out 400HP no need for a computer for ever wheel just good ol plain 4 wheel violence and WRC 2011 rules say no more computers so its pretty pointless unless your planning of going to a non WRC rally...

I would love a REV happy 3SGTE = since the 3sgte is only REV cheery and not happy since it loses a bit of power but VVTi would fix this and rev happy 4wd means drifting through corners = what WRC Fans LOVE...now i gotta find MONSTER and the useless rally driver ken block and make him stunt the hell out of it...

[playr158]

a 3SGTE 4WD FT-86 GT FOUR would only be like 5-8 grand more and I guarantee you would hand the EVO its ass on a platter seeing as it will be putting out 400HP no need for a computer for ever wheel just good ol plain 4 wheel violence and WRC 2011 rules say no more computers so its pretty pointless unless your planning of going to a non WRC rally...

I would love a REV happy 3SGTE = since the 3sgte is only REV cheery and not happy since it loses a bit of power but VVTi would fix this and rev happy 4wd means drifting through corners = what WRC Fans LOVE...now i gotta find MONSTER and the useless rally driver ken block and make him stunt the hell out of it...

A) when is the last time you saw a production 4 banger @ 400hp?

B) if you want the AWD turbo version......Subaru will be putting their own version of the FT-86 out (as it IS a joint production car) and it is rumored to be AWD and boosted.... Toyota's version is not.

C) the 3sgte is not as responsive as the newer motors, it needs a full on make over (thus making it a completely different motor) to be modern enough to handle it.
* please see very indepth many page thread about this from 3sgte owners and other car owners more intelligent: http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=413630 *


I'm glad you're a dreamer and it would be a cool car. for maybe a shop to build if the car ever comes out.


But essentially all you've been able to come up with is Toyota needs to make this:



This post has been edited by playr158: Feb 14, 2011 - 6:00 PM

[azian_advanced]

the mitsu evo fq-400 comes with 403 bhp stock

[HectortheRican]

the mitsu evo fq-400 comes with 403 bhp stock

It was only sold in the UK and it didn't come from a Mitsubishi dealer. It came from Ralliart UK

[Neon90424]

Im not a member of that forum...I also have no idea what would make it more modern its just pistons and a block, material changes and then?

[95CelicaST]

Go join and read.

[njccmd2002]

A WRC Prius? or WRC yaris.. LOL , please!

[D-Man]

This thread is awesome.

i haven't chimed in for many post so i'll make this quick~

A 3s is quite the motor, dont get me wrong. But to bring it up to speed with the ever-so changing world, it would no longer be a 3s where it counts. probably wind up being a 9age or some crazy **** like that....

The ZZ line is semi-**** when it comes to boost. Yes they can take it, And yes the HP is based on a varying power graph. they *would fail on teh lower end, witch is why the 2zz based on the lower end ...... untill the big cam kicks in (targeted to work on teh higher end). But in teh end any boosted 7th gen owner will cry "bearings". (trust me, i've had to deal with these guys)

Did i just say end like a million times? lol

Toyota IS aiming at gas efficiency. End of story. Scion is trying to keep control of the younger market, and not doing the best job. Not with 350z's running 10-15 used. and the ever so fun line of 370z's. (just as a quick example)

lexus is competing with luxury. (having a gawd damn fist fight with BMW ATM) So they most likely wouldn't badge it in the US.

Really, the team up between Sub and Toyota seems like an atempt to get back into the game, But from a safe distance. it looks like another Tallon/eagle eclipse all over again. But that did inspire massive sales... I'm just sayin...


Neon, rawrk that sh!t~ if you can get em to make one, I'll go buy one.

[3WayStunna]

My turn to chime in.

As great as it would be to see toyota kickin ass and takin names in the WRC, it wont happen anytime soon. Why would they want subaru to do or even look bad in the WRC when toyota technically owns over half their stock. Would be like shooting yourself in the foot.

Secondly the subaru version of the ft-86 will be RWD. I think i posted that in the FT-86 thread, if not i can find it and show it for those interested.

Secondly as an AVID and very strong subbie hater, i have driven both a GC8 and my GT4. The subbie's short gearing allows for a great and fun drive in a straight line, but in the corners it is too much work shifting up and down all the time just to keep the revs up.

The subbie also has a great range of veiw and and is way easier to see out of than the GT4.

But.............but........the GT4 wins hands down in handling. OMG it handles freakin awesomely, and in the corners, i tend to only use 2/3 gear as opposed to 2-5 with the subbie. Also the GT4 is bullet proof, transmission and engine both. I have beat on my poor engine and transmission so much, and when i did the same with my friends subbie...poor tranny broke...

I mean, the GT4 was a great car for its time, and if they wouldve continued more iterations of it, im sure it would be good in this day and age......but i doubt there is any hope of another celica gt4..

[Goonter]

as good as the 3sgte is, its OLD school tech. use a modern more efficient motor..i'd take a subi engine they sound t3h s3x

to each his own? Cause i hate how boxer engines sound like ****

You kids need to go drive a subaru. You'll forget about that 3s in no time.

I've driven a subaru and then a 3s after. i forgot the subaru rather than the 3s? >.>

If it was an STI though i think it would be different.

[Neon90424]

So guys any input? any suggestions of how to get a 9K revving 3sgte that will put out 400hp

[Goonter]

So guys any input? any suggestions of how to get a 9K revving 3sgte that will put out 400hp

Swap in a wankel Engine and slap on the "3SGTE" badge.

[njccmd2002]

So guys any input? any suggestions of how to get a 9K revving 3sgte that will put out 400hp

yes send it to a shop;

[playr158]

9,000 rpm is pretty pointless, I didn't even like it on the S2000. But 400whp is easily achieved on a 3sgte.....just get on mr2oc and read.


Don't post


Read

[mkernz22]

why don't you fix your oil probably first then worry about this? lolololol

[HectortheRican]

why don't you fix your oil probably first then worry about this? lolololol

Don't forget to check the blinker fluid too.

[Neon90424]

blinker fluid?? I fixed my oily problem it was the ct20b:)! I read the mr2oc thread and all i read is that the 3sgte needs better head (lol) ( what yamaha will make for me once i show them my plans for world domination ) and forged pistons and that the cylinder walls were a bit thin during some years or whatnot bs also a nice flowing intake header and why is revving to 9k rpm pointless? thats what dual vvti and large cams are for! imagine in a rally you want to rape the tach thru the curve its beautiful because you can tach rape and have great acceleration out of the curve with the somewhat taller gears that yotas have over scoobies,

I'm thinking individual ports with nozzles in each intake tract with 200cc injectors for wat/meth and 800cc injectors to take care of our power needs, as well as keeping the 8.5:1 compression, the springs need to be dual springs? i dont know this part need some suggestions... titanium shims and what size valves? I think its ok where fact injectors are located since they spray onto the hot exhaust valve to ensure proper evaporation/atomization.

the crankshaft would have to be lightened just a tad and a more aggressive knife edge on it...and a slightly lighter flywheel to ensure 9k revving is reached quickly, come on guys more suggestions I believe we can revive the 3sgte and have it come back swinging kicking ass and taking names, and if not...**** I'll make sure i make one of the weirdest 3sgte's in south america and destroy it through 1500 kilometers of desert racing.

[TRD_Ian]

seriously?....have fun taking this idea to yamaha.....the 3s is a dead engine .... yamaha will laugh in your face if confronted with this idea the 3s is old tech, it works well and i love them but that boxer engine is the best its going to get. you need to open your eyes here, this is as ridiculous as telling GM to put a 350 in the new vette. yea the 350 engine works well and what not but is a dinosaur and cannot compete with newer technology. using the 3s for power in this car is taking a step backwards not to mention trying to get it to rev to the moon, its a turbo charged motor it doesn't need to rev that high.... any who im dumbfounded by this idea, what ever you guys are smoking in paraguay you should share

[HectortheRican]

blinker fluid??

what ever you guys are smoking in paraguay you should share

[Neon90424]

Thats what suggestions are for now you say that it does not need to rev to the moon the 2zz revs up to 8400rpm 600 more is not that far away and tey are only 200cc apart and one has VVTI imagine with dual VVTI. And on the other hand, Paraguay is one the largest exporters of pot in the world and its supposedly like second best in the world in terms of quality or something like that ( not that i know I have never tried nor will I...I am nuts enough as I am....)

[Neon90424]

delete dbl post

This post has been edited by Neon90424: Feb 22, 2011 - 6:23 PM

[Goonter]

blinker fluid?? I fixed my oily problem it was the ct20b:)! I read the mr2oc thread and all i read is that the 3sgte needs better head (lol) ( what yamaha will make for me once i show them my plans for world domination ) and forged pistons and that the cylinder walls were a bit thin during some years or whatnot bs also a nice flowing intake header and why is revving to 9k rpm pointless? thats what dual vvti and large cams are for! imagine in a rally you want to rape the tach thru the curve its beautiful because you can tach rape and have great acceleration out of the curve with the somewhat taller gears that yotas have over scoobies,

That's MEGA lulz. They'll just tell you to gtfo.

[Neon90424]

they wont kick a client out they'll make whatever you want aslong as you can pay for it nuff said and if i have to make a minimum of 2000 3sgte heads so help me god I'll do it.

This post has been edited by Neon90424: Feb 23, 2011 - 10:21 AM

[TRD_Ian]

do you realize the amount of money needed for yamaha to research and build and test this idea, your lil wad of cash will not due it, im sure you would have to come up with an elaborate buisness plan for them aswell to put forth this time and effort for them to produce a head for a 15+ year old motor, maybe if it was for a civic or something were everyone and their dog owns one, but for what your after and the market by all means keep dreaming, ever wonder why there isn't a sh!t ton of after market support for our cars? its for that reason. just not enough of them. but by all means march over to yamaha and let us know how you make out lol

[Neon90424]

I googled the picture and I know it takes more than a lil wad of cash r&d wont be that bad they have plenty of designs for current engines all I need is a better flowing head for 400hp with injector ports for w/m inj, the business plan is to create a rally car and 15 yr old motor? ever check what engine the japanese caldina has?
The caldina has a gt-four edition aswell...way to be a pesimist I will call first before going to japan or where ever yamaha has its headquarters...i'll send you a head for free and make you review it.

[playr158]

lets take a motor and make it what its not!

kthnx

you'd be better off with a Suzuki Hyabusa motor and slapping on a disco potato.

This post has been edited by playr158: Feb 23, 2011 - 5:18 PM

[TRD_Ian]

didn't production for those end in 07?, any who beating a dead horse here good luck with it postal code is E4C 1Z3 shoot me my free head when this happens

[Goonter]

lets take a motor and make it what its not!

kthnx

you'd be better off with a Suzuki Hyabusa motor and slapping on a disco potato.

****ing lulz

[Tony-B]

What i'd like

All alloy 3S-GTE Dual VVTL-i. Score!!!!!

The GT-Four tech is old but superior to scoobies and evos of its time (1994).

Also someone posted a pic of the GT-R, i'd rather an LFA anyday.

T

[Neon90424]

Will an alloy block hold as much power as the regular iron block 3sgte?

[delusionz]

Did you guys not know the GT-Four lives on as a Caldina

USA need not worry about GT-Four, as with the ST205, it's JDM only lol

This post has been edited by delusionz: Feb 24, 2011 - 7:13 PM

[Neon90424]

caldina was discontinued in 2007 and a final tribute TYPE N was made