AEM, F/IC vs Apexi Neo, Looking for Upgrade info Options

[celica95-95]

Looking to get a AFC.. These are the 2 that seem the get the most talking on the net !

Or HkS ECU , Biltz ECU and other

Let me know what you 6th gen member think about these AFC ? HKS ECU, and other's ?
or if you have some in-put on other ones?
Some performance shop's are saying that a stand-alone is a better pick in the longer run!

[stephen_lee]

the stand alone is a better pick all around, if you do more than a BASIC exhaust, front mount, intake, maybe up the boost a bit. but at the point of HUGE engine upgrades, and boost over fuel cut, stand alone is the way to go.

[ST205WRC]

i agree dont waste the money on other options just save it till you can make the investment then you never have to buy another EMS again. there are many out there that have support for our platforms already. hydra, megasquirt, motec are widely used in the 3sgte world. AEM, and haltech are also very good option. there are other this is just off the top of my head.

[celica95-95]

Thanks great feed back ... Apexi power FC got some good reviews??

going check some of the other one's you have listed ;-)

[ST205WRC]

yeah i know many guys here in japan that run PFC but on other platforms mainly nissans. i personally dont like it because i have tried to mess with FC datalogit, (the tuning program) and i dont like it. but thats just me.

[celica95-95]

motec look's good but with program I think it might be difficult to find a tuner !

[ST205WRC]

motec look's good but with program I think it might be difficult to find a tuner !

yeah that one is more popular with the UK guys. a lot of the US guys try to DIY tuning and stuff so they go with the cheaper option the megasquirt. you can get a entire MS3 system fully upgraded for less than $1000 US. and that is them putting it together if you get one that is not pre-assembled then its a bunch less. i think they are a steal if you dont have a need to control VVT-i or something specific. that is what i was planning on until i decided to build a turbo red top beams. now im looking at using the hydra nemisis.

[Smaay]

first of all what engine are you running? i dont recommend the AEM FIC. it fights with the stock ECU too much. the Greddy Emanage is pretty good but i have no experience with it.

If you have a ST-205 engine in, then get the Power FC. its a very good stand alone. if you are using a 5S-FE, hold out for a while until i finish my conversion harness for the AEM EMS.

[3WayStunna]

Smaay where did you get your info from that the AEM FIC fights with the ECU too much....also which one..the -6 or the -8.....from what ive been reading up on the FIC is one of the few piggybacks that DOSENT fight with any ECU. Has to do with how it retards timing. Other than that it clamps voltage from the (MAF/MAP depending on the engine) and makes changes to the crank timing and cam timing WAYYY differently than most piggybacks out there.... Also has its own fueling maps for the type of injectors you want to run, and even has an O2 skewing program built into it.....so i would be some good to know info as to where you have met someone with the AEM unit that can attest with its tuning abilitites.....Everything i find is ppl mostly getting good results with it, and even still trying to experiment with it...Not to mention it has the capability to log from a wideband...show me a piggyback that can do all of those and ill give you a donkey lol...

http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php?topic=22882.0
http://my.is/forums/f114/aem-f-ic-my-short...ew-pics-347266/
http://www.fullthrottletech.com/showthread...highlight=3sgte

Btw read your thread on the FIC and not to sound rude but sounds like you shouldve had somone else tune your car at that point....you still got it btw...lol wouldnt mind taking it off your hands!

As for the OP, i agree with ST205WRC. Personally if you have the 3sgte i would get a power fc or HKS unit since its seems everyone knows how to tune the two. But every other one mentioned is great out of the box loaded with more options than you would actually need. Brings up the point, that you should get an ECU based on what your needs actually are, and then compare which ones can give you what you want in the long run with their price...

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Aug 24, 2011 - 6:51 PM

[celica95-95]

Keep the input coming

3rd gen 3sgte swap I did last summer got 3" from turbo stage 4 CC clutch koyo Rad AEM tru boosted AEM fuel/air gauge

Good wright up on AEM AFR

No reviws on apexi neo

[BriinumsBo]

I`d like to hear some thoughts on apexi neo too. I can get it for 100$ from a friend (but without harness). I have mr2 mk2 with rev3 engine, fully rebuilt but with wiseco pistons (slightly higher CR, had no choice). i think the engine goes lean, its not spitting out rich black smoke like it used to or like other mrtwos do. could i do something right with the NEO or would it be useless due to lack of timing control? im not going to turn up the boost, im keeping it ~oem power, only engine upgrade is 3" exhaust system and roof intake. i just want to run safe.

This post has been edited by BriinumsBo: Aug 25, 2011 - 1:16 AM

[BriinumsBo]

PowerFC has the common EMS problem - it has no native knock control. J&S safeguard or similar have to be used. the good thing about PFC is that everybody has some base maps lying around to share that support various levels of mods. then again u need datalogit to fine tune it, as the hand commander has very basic maps control. so PFC + datalogit + J&S = overpriced option.
here in east europe VEMS is a popular choice for any type of sports cars, for 1200~1300$ it is fully packed with all addon options and switchable maps, it has knock control + extremely easy adjustable launch control for dragrace folks. the problem with it? it is custom built&programmed for each car, almost like megasquirt. its not just buy a standalone and plug & play, you have to order it, explain every detail of the car to the tuner and wait. but its included in the price

still id like to hear some experiences & opinions on NEO

[ST205WRC]

PowerFC has the common EMS problem - it has no native knock control. J&S safeguard or similar have to be used. the good thing about PFC is that everybody has some base maps lying around to share that support various levels of mods. then again u need datalogit to fine tune it, as the hand commander has very basic maps control. so PFC + datalogit + J&S = overpriced option.

still id like to hear some experiences & opinions on NEO

i agree about the knock control but honestly by the time most knock sensors pick it up its to late anyway. i guess the only other real advantage is to prevent any further damage. i guess im just a huge believer in you have to pay to play so i really dont like the piggy back option but thats just me. if you going to stay relatively stock and just need a little more with the fueling i would say get a wideband A/F gauge and go from there. you can do multiple things to mess with it if you know how what you are reading.

[celica95-95]

Yea i know what u mean with the pay to play i feel same way...

I do have a wideband A/F gauge , that y i'm looking for Apexi Neo review or other AFR Controller just to get a bit more out motor, it fast to being with but also nice to use to motor to its full , well keeping it safe!

the stand-alone is the better pick ...Going to look in to the VEMS sounds like a good setup...;-)

In Canada not to much 3sgte 3rd swap so it hard to find tune-shops and parts !

[BriinumsBo]

apexi is partly covered in the well known lovehorsepower - http://lovehorsepower.com/joomla/index.php...1&Itemid=35

this thread explains why safc is bad for leaning mixture (removing fuel) - http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129865

also search AFC here: http://www.gtfour.ca/howtoblowyourengine.html

So all these engines blew because of the apexi was used to lean out which adds timing. what if i want to enrich the mixture because of higher compression? would apexi neo be all i need? and regarding previous information my ignition timing would be retarded so i could run even safer in the lean sections?

[ST205WRC]

you dont need a neo do to that you can get an adjustable pressure regulator would have the same effect.

[BriinumsBo]

i thought so. but it would raise all rpm fueling. sometimes idling goes way too rich, dont really want to wash out cylinders.. since i will never raise stock boost im wondering if safc would help me enrich dangerous areas without any side effects

This post has been edited by BriinumsBo: Aug 26, 2011 - 5:21 AM

[CELL_PROTOTYPE_X]

What are your power goals? A standalone EMS might not be necessary unless you're planning on doing an all out build. I have the 3rd gen 3sgte in my car with a standalone AEM EMS. I went with AEM because there is a local shop that has a certified AEM tuner and they guarantee their work but it's also a really great product. A standalone ems isn't cheap especially when you add in tuning if you can't do it yourself.

[celica95-95]

well my power goals are to get around 270-300 to wheels , dyno last year was 228HP - 226 TOQ thats to the wheels
So dyne guys are saying boot controller and AFC , would put me in the 270-300 range,

But i don't want to put much strain on the motor , some forms talk about piggy-backing stock 3sgte ECU is not the best ( Will Kill the motor)

So... I'm thinking the stand-alone

or a pre-programmed ECU ( Can't be re-tuned ;-(

I might build up the motor but it would be a project later not in the planing now ;-)

[stephen_lee]

DEATH is putting down your power goals on a STOCK tune, but its a gen 2 RC

[celica95-95]

so put down my power goals ?

gen 2 fc ?

[stephen_lee]

im just saying hes putting down that much power with a full internal rebuild(stock spec parts though) FMIC, fuel cut defeater, and other than that a pretty much stock engine management. no tuning.

[celica95-95]

VEMS which member are using them?

[easternpiro1]

this is GREAT info guys! i have a greddy E-manage blue (will be selling soon) i have decided to go with the AEM FIC because i heard it was better. i always hear that piggy backs fight with the 3sgte, so thanks smaay for clearing that up!

To the OP, as far as standalones, i wouldnt bother unless you KNOW youre going to go bigger turbo, more motor etc. if you only want 270-300 you should be okay with that piggyback from what ive learned

[BriinumsBo]

I`d like to hear some thoughts on apexi neo too. I can get it for 100$ from a friend (but without harness). I have mr2 mk2 with rev3 engine, fully rebuilt but with wiseco pistons (slightly higher CR, had no choice). i think the engine goes lean, its not spitting out rich black smoke like it used to or like other mrtwos do. could i do something right with the NEO or would it be useless due to lack of timing control? im not going to turn up the boost, im keeping it ~oem power, only engine upgrade is 3" exhaust system and roof intake. i just want to run safe.

just fixed my issue temporarily - retarded timing a bit (now less than 10), but fuel economy should be worse, also power is lost a bit.. still considering AFC to add fuel

[Smaay]

the FIC is still a piggy back.

[celica95-95]

Brilinms Bo

your saying that you lost power for a AFC?
which one where you using ? and did you retarded your-timing ?

[BriinumsBo]

Brilinms Bo

your saying that you lost power for a AFC?
which one where you using ? and did you retarded your-timing ?

are you following? my engine is detonating. i dont have AFC, but im considering buying it to ADD fuel not remove. because i have higher compression, so i need to enrich the mixture to keep it safe and enjoy the higher compression at the same time. or use octane booster..
currently i retarded timing to play safe..

[3WayStunna]

Brilinms Bo

your saying that you lost power for a AFC?
which one where you using ? and did you retarded your-timing ?

are you following? my engine is detonating. i dont have AFC, but im considering buying it to ADD fuel not remove. because i have higher compression, so i need to enrich the mixture to keep it safe and enjoy the higher compression at the same time. or use octane booster..
currently i retarded timing to play safe..

you dont need a neo do to that you can get an adjustable pressure regulator would have the same effect.

Quoted for justice.
Seriously man if you are just trying to get yourself a better safegaurd against det, there are a million other ways to go about it. Ive covered it once, but what really matters is what your current and future goals are...if you are looking at your stock engine and only want to get the most out of it in its mostly stock form (internals, ecu) then an aftermarket FPR/fuel pump combo would be good to go. I mean you could also add in a wideband, water injection, J&S safegaurd and have an engine on the stock managment system that could handle anything you throw at it.

But if you are aiming high NOW or a bit down the road, then keep your timing retarded, get some sort of aftermarket engine managment and wideband and throw that sucker on a dyno and go from there...but even then you would be faced with improving your fueling system along the same way as the above choices.

[BriinumsBo]

Thanks man, i really appreciate your reply
" Ive covered it once" - do you have some kind of article? Id like to read, you seem to be good to sum things up when its needed
of course ECU is the best thing on earth, and still i would need fuel upgrades that would also do some good even without the ECU.
My goals are not to go over 280horses at the flywheel. if i ever come to cross that stage, its years from now, when i will have enough funds for good ecu, wideband, turbo, chassis improvements etc and only then i would think it over many times. engine safety first, power later. i learned the hard way. twice.
Are you sure a bigger pump than gen3 is required? isnt it enough to support a slight afc correction? of course i run stock boost and dont plan to ever touch it. i dont like aftermarket parts i love the 3gen 3sgte, its so many light years ahead of gen2 (compared stock) those stock parts are very well designed for 20+ years the only thing i miss from gen2 is TVIS tuning..
and fuel pump change on mr2 is a b**ch, unlike nissans where its almost easier than changing battery

[Por2geezcelica]

i am planning on turbocharging my 7afe, and am stuck with the decision on what to do about engine management. Is it completely necessary to control ignition timing even when running low boost, like 6psi? Will the ecu advance the timing too much and cause detonation even at that boost level? Those who have gone the 7afte route, what have you guys done about controlling ignition timing and fuel? Im thinking about going with the aem fic and was looking for some feedback from people who have used it. Let me know what you guys think!

[presure2]

i am planning on turbocharging my 7afe, and am stuck with the decision on what to do about engine management. Is it completely necessary to control ignition timing even when running low boost, like 6psi? Will the ecu advance the timing too much and cause detonation even at that boost level? Those who have gone the 7afte route, what have you guys done about controlling ignition timing and fuel? Im thinking about going with the aem fic and was looking for some feedback from people who have used it. Let me know what you guys think!

steff (hurley97) has the FIC on her car, and i think smaay uses it, or was using it on his as well.

[celica95-95]

After doing a lot of reading , I would say the only problem with the AEM is the crank and Cam sensors wiring , it seem that wiring CAN be done but will not allow you to tune timing , So that bring me to the Apexi-Neo it would seem that both system give the same tuning option

Apexi-Neo looking to be easer to Install , both are in the same price range

[Red123]

Is it possible to get 300-310hp just by tunning AEM FIC correctly?
Engine internal is absolute stock.

[delusionz]

^--- at the engine yes, at the wheels difficult.

I'm in a similar situation to what I've read, I have an ST205 with a fully built motor (stock cammed), has 86.5 overbore je pistons (+20cc ish), head and block surfaces planed(extra compression), eagle rods, acl bearings, arp bolts, etc running garrett gt2860rs turbo (similar output to ct20b, but with crazy spoolup), tial 44mm external gate.

running factory ecu with no form of tuning

here are my current precautions..
- spark plugs 1 step colder (was heat grade 6, now heat grade 7) - NGK BKR7EIX
- ignition timing set at 8 deg
- cooling upgrades: water header tank, alloy radiator, w2a IC runs redline waterwetter
- oil breather tank with PCV/Intake deletion (octane robbing oil vapour goes to atmo)
- only use highest available octane 98 RON
- currently using the blue spring (6psi)

planned...
- walbro pump and adj. fuel reg.
- afc neo
- wideband gauge kit