V6 Conversion, gearbox Options

[watty01]

Hey guys,
I thinking about doing the V6 camry engine conversion on a 1990 SX. Just wondering dose anyone know if the ST185 gearbox will fit to any camry engine. i was hoping convert her to AWD.
Cheers Guys

[kurt95gt]

the stock s54 trans from a gt will bolt to the 3zv 1mz an 3stgte so I would assume that the ad trans would work om a v6 too

[Smaay]

not again

[Neon90424]

newbies should be unable to create a thread without using the search function atleast 10 times

[kurt95gt]

Im working on doing a v6 swap too
there is info on hear about it
yrs you can search an find this info but its still not super clear an the sticky don't give alot of info
eather
I chose to stick with the s54 to swap the awd trans in you'll need a flywheel an pressure plate to match motor an clutch disc to match trans at you'll also need gt4 mounts an a custom pass side mount and the wiring is little bit of a nightmare from what I've been told so far
good luck with your swap

[BonzaiCelica]

newbies should be unable to create a thread without using the search function atleast 10 times

haha ya right lets move this to the website discussion thread for voting. Mods???

[watty01]

Im working on doing a v6 swap too
there is info on hear about it
yrs you can search an find this info but its still not super clear an the sticky don't give alot of info
eather
I chose to stick with the s54 to swap the awd trans in you'll need a flywheel an pressure plate to match motor an clutch disc to match trans at you'll also need gt4 mounts an a custom pass side mount and the wiring is little bit of a nightmare from what I've been told so far
good luck with your swap

Thanks mate

not again

im sure if it bothers you that much you could choose not to reply or discard it from your memory

[kurt95gt]

newbies should be unable to create a thread without using the search function atleast 10 times

haha ya right lets move this to the website discussion thread for voting. Mods???

you make it sound like you've never asked a stupid question
everyone has at some point in time
if you don't like it then don't respond

[watty01]

newbies should be unable to create a thread without using the search function atleast 10 times

haha ya right lets move this to the website discussion thread for voting. Mods???

you make it sound like you've never asked a stupid question
everyone has at some point in time
if you don't like it then don't respond

Exactly, cheers mate. though looking back it was pretty stupid.

[quick_5hifter]

I am wondering why in the world would you need a V6 swap, when a 3sgte swap is better? What is the advantage of dropping in a V6 engine?
Let.s count:
-less power;
-more work to do;
-more expensive swap, including the custom work and parts needed (engine mounts, clutch etc.);
-more expensive taxes (in some states);
-harder to do it legally (in most european states, as far as I know).
The guy who did it the first time (SnapshotGT, I think) is an exception. He did something that nobody ever did before, which is worth the effort (IMO); how about the rest of you guys? You ALSO want to do something that nobody else did before, EXCEPT FOR SNAPSHOTGT and some other guys? What is the gain in this?
Even if you think it.s cheaper for you (since you pobably have found a cheap V6 engine or you already have it or something), I think you should probably think twice about this kind of swap.
Good luck, no matter what you choose!

[richee3]

Power delivery is way better with a V6 than the 3S, plus immediate torque. I see the benefits of a V6 swap.

However, like you, I'd go for the 3S. Cheaper and easier by far.

[kurt95gt]

I don't see how a 3s is cheaper my v6 swap is looking to cost around may 1900
I found a good v6 for 550 an wiring is 400 that my new u pipe will cost 70 an im going to make my own pass side mount
im reusing the s54 an the clutch isn't that bad im sure I read somewhere the s54 flywheel can be modded to work (not 100%including sure though) the v6 doesn't have that much less power if you tune ot little with a good exhaust an intake plus you can walk intoany autoparts store an buy what you need to fix it not guess work or wait for parts to pass customs that seem well worth it to me plus you don't have to wait for the n/a v6 to spool up like a 3sgte an they can make just as much (if not more power )the as a 3s canseems worth while to me but everyone has there own opinion

[richee3]

^^ I agree with most of that, apart from the total cost of the swap and the ease. $1,900 is a little low for a V6 swap, though I'm hoping you can stick to that budget and make it happen. A proper 3S-GTE swap will cost around $4-5,000, and a V6 swap could easily hit that and more if a few mistakes happen. The most important bit is the ease of swapping in a 3S-GTE. It's been done over and over and over, so there's very little gray areas in the swap. It's well known. Doing the V6 swap, you're almost on your own. It's barely been done, so you could very easily encounter an unknown problem. What it boils down to is budget, preference, and mechanical ability. Both swaps have their benefits.

[kurt95gt]

The reason mine is staying on such a low budget is because I have a gt so im reusing my trans axle mounts shift cables
I already have a 2.5 inch exhaust so already having alot of the need stuff helps
if you have a st an need all that (like Stephen_lee) it will cost alot more
plus im not rebuilding the engine
the only thing yet that might run the price up is the clutch
is there any difference between a 3s an a 5s flywheel?

[watty01]

In some cases money isnt that much of an issue, better spending it on a car then pissing it out on a friday night. im more doing it for a project and i love celica's. yes it might be harder but the satisfaction of knowing you did it will be pretty awesome.

[giraffe]

and to reiterate: having a 3rd gen 3s-ge in the states is such a ****ing hassle. you can't get parts without jumping thru a million hoops, and they cost way more then they're worth.

it's a good motor, but a giant pain in the ass.

[njccmd2002]

Just because it has not been frequently done, does not mean it cant be done.

an NA V6 engine IMO would be better than 3sgte, not because its more power, but i just dont like the idea of messing with turbo, period, im not a turbo fan.

and plus a V6 in the states has more parts readily available, and less expensive, yes we can get parts from the 3sgte, but i dont like messing with turbo engines.

[stephen_lee]

turbos are extra parts. more stuff to go wrong..

cost of a v6 is lower. period. they can be gotten locally... i paid 400 for my v6 + e53. then another 450 for my LSD. then maybe another 200 for axles. 100 for shift cables and mounts.

if i didnt want LSD it would be 400 + 80 for axles +100 mounts and shift cables.
so motor set for... 600, and misc parts 1000-2000

total v6 swap w/o lsd 1600-2600...... the cost of getting a 3s imported alone.
total v6 w/ lsd 2000-3000
total v6 w/ s54 1400-2400
and add 500 for a wiring harness if you dont want to do it yourself

so anywhere between 1400 and 3000

BUT as stated youre basically on your own.. little info compared to the 3s swap.

[stephen_lee]

also about the awd trans... It will bolt up to the engine as its essentially an e153. BUT the transfer case interferes with the block. Its not much, and with careful grinding, it will fit fine.

[mandrek]

also about the awd trans... It will bolt up to the engine as its essentially an e153. BUT the transfer case interferes with the block. Its not much, and with careful grinding, it will fit fine.

still waiting to see who is going to do the 2GRFE in a celi with GT4 AWD drive train... (and perhaps + turbo!!!)


No car on the road would have that configuration. AWD V6, (posible turbo) 2dr lift back, light.

[stephen_lee]

also about the awd trans... It will bolt up to the engine as its essentially an e153. BUT the transfer case interferes with the block. Its not much, and with careful grinding, it will fit fine.

still waiting to see who is going to do the 2GRFE in a celi with GT4 AWD drive train... (and perhaps + turbo!!!)


No car on the road would have that configuration. AWD V6, (posible turbo) 2dr lift back, light.

theres a 3vz +awd 5th gen somewhere.

[mandrek]

also about the awd trans... It will bolt up to the engine as its essentially an e153. BUT the transfer case interferes with the block. Its not much, and with careful grinding, it will fit fine.

still waiting to see who is going to do the 2GRFE in a celi with GT4 AWD drive train... (and perhaps + turbo!!!)


No car on the road would have that configuration. AWD possiblesible turbo) 2dr lift back, light.

theres a 3vz +awd 5th gen somewhere.

ah yes.. lol, in fact i was thinking about that car as i was typing that post, but was being lazy and figured that the meaning behind my words would be seen..

what i ment and should have said was: there is no car on the road today with that configuration that you can just buy as any production modle v6 [posible turbo], awd,2 dr, lift back, light). thuse making it fairly unique. that 5th was TT aswell. the only car that comes close is the audi TT quatro. and i have yet to see a turbo setup for that car (the v6 one) that could actually make any kind of power. not to mention its a pig.

This post has been edited by mandrek: Dec 20, 2011 - 4:01 AM

[Redmann813]

What about a vr4 3000gt although those arent very light

[mandrek]

What about a vr4 3000gt although those arent very light

yup.. they are quite a pig, w/ crap suspension to boot.

[kurt95gt]

Got a buddy that had one
They handle like crap
My Nova could go corner for corner with it
Wasn't really impressed but it

[mandrek]

yup that is why i was pointing out that it would truley be unique.. light, 2 dr, liftback, AWD, v6(t), looks good, bustill a sleeper. handles great, ... the list goes on.

oh i know that the AWD and the turbo would put more weight into the car, but that is ok, considering that the 2GRFE is just over 100lbs lighter than a 3sgte... hmmm. and if you leave the turbo off the 2grfe, and were to compaire FF to FF(since it woudl be mated to the same trans), the 3sgte puts down what to the wheels stock? 200ish? were as to the swapped 2grfe puts down just under 275ish whp.

when coupled to the AWD i would wager that the 2grfe would loose less overall power and torque compared to a 3sgte driven AWD.. since the 2grfe has 2 more slugs helping to push that AWD.

what i mean, is not that since the 2grfe has more of both that it would still have more on tap after pushing the AWD, but that the actual percentage of power loss would be less. do i know if this would proove to be true? IDK.. wont know till some one does a swap.

[kurt95gt]

The percentage lost through The drivetrain would be the same
So let's day the 3s has a 12% power difference from crank to wheels
The 2gr would suffer from the same 12% Loss of power
BTW 12% is just a random number used for the point at hand

[mandrek]

The percentage lost through The drivetrain would be the same
So let's day the 3s has a 12% power difference from crank to wheels
The 2gr would suffer from the same 12% Loss of power
BTW 12% is just a random number used for the point at hand

you know this? or believe this?


example..a stock car puts down 100HP and losses about (lets just say 12%)
now put a 1000HP motor on the same car (assuming that the drive train has been suitably upgraded, and still weighs the same or less. so for the sake of this argument, the drive train is the same [apples to apples])

so you want me to believe that the smaller HP motor is only going to lose say 12HP to the drive train, wile the 1000hp motor is going to lose 120hp? pushing the same amount of mass?
simple physics.. not a chance... the percentage drive train loss is relative, not constant.

and the higher the HP on the motor (more the torque since that is the proper measurement of what is needed to move X mass.) the smaller the % of loss from the drive train.




and since the 2grfe has more torque, it will have a smaller amount of loss, especially when pushing the mass of a heaver AWD drive train. when compared to the 3sgte.

[kurt95gt]

im basing that off of what I was told by my friends dyno tech
he used the new mustang gt an gt500 as an example
the 2 cars have the exact same trans an rear end gears an on the dyno
( witch has nothing to do with weight ) lose the same % through the drive transfer ever tho the gt500 has more power at the crank due to the supercharger
if you take the matching pair of cars with the same drivetrain but different motors they should have close to the same % of power loss since the gearing is the same
if that's wrong im sorry that's what I was lead to beleave an it does make since to me

[mandrek]

hmm your argument does draw a good point that i did not reference to.. and that is that the actual % of loss is more so dictated by the gearing of the drive train.. and that IS a good, point for the argument on the whole.. but the point that i was making was that a higher torqued motor (IE: the V6) would require less power to move the drive train, and that in turn the % of power loss from the mass of the drive train, would be (and is) less.. but.... also, yes... the overall power loss is governed by gearing.. so we are both right... but that is also why you read the v6 swapped guys always looking to swap out there final gears to stretch em out a bit, since the v6 has more power and torque on tap, and can afford to.

like the old-school domestic guys at the strip, changing out rear ends and BOOM! gain X amount more torque to the wheels...

[kurt95gt]

yep we both are right
an I plan on leaving my s54 alone with my v6 because I want the short gears
for the quarrel mile since that's the only form of real racing near me
but then st the same time a longer 5th gear would be nice for on the highway
but you are right the v6 will use less power to move the car down the road where as the 4cyl will need to use more

[fibrewizard]

my gt4 AWD 3vzfe turbo conversion is in progress

my st184 3vzfe N/A conversion is complete and way better then stock 5sfe.....

the awd tt v6 conversion spoken about in previous posts is in america, mate of mine, he helped me out with my 184 build.....

he has had single and twin setups on his in fwd format, and he has now converted a 184 to AWD(due to the lack of gt4's in the states)

his new build is a massive fully fledged completely forged, custom everything build.......vids on youtube...C.M.S.

that reminds me i havent check my build thread on here for ages

[fibrewizard]

as for the 2grfe engine research has lead me to believe it is possible with the same grinding of the block and transfer case to fit tranny...... unknown how much material will be left after grinding, but the tranny will bolt up........all toyota v6 engines, eg....3vzfe,2vzfe,5vzfe, 1mzfe, and the 2grfe all share the same bellhousing pattern.......from what my research has lead me to understand, as a 2grfe had been put into a rav4 in the uk

[ST204R]

Kurt,

Having driven my v6 celica for a couple of months now I would consider going with the taller gearing in the e153 v6 box. First gear (if you could get traction) is gone in the blink of an eye as it is. I would hate to think how quick I would have to change with the s54 box.

Also with all the torque they put down pretty much instantly, I feel better knowing I went with a box that can handle the power.

cheers

This post has been edited by ST204R: Jan 30, 2012 - 6:30 AM

[kurt95gt]

I do plan on swapping to a e153 trans later on but as of right now i can afford to so the engine swap but not the trans too