5S-FE Turbo project, Would like comments/critique Options

[Syaoran]

Hello, this would be my first elaborate post on here and I thought I'd get some feedback from you, the more experienced people.

I would like to know what your opinion on my idea for a boost build would be.

First off, I'm not going to use a CT-26. I would really like to, but the reason is that the ones I've found, that are NOT supra CT-26, are either in need of a rebuild or way too expensive for a small, old turbocharger, that isn't even a ball bearing to justify the price. That is my take on the CT-26. The CT-20b is way too rare, and expensive to rebuild in case I were to find one.


That leaves me with brand new eBay turbochargers. I have first-hand experience eBay turbochargers and I can say that some sellers do sell decent stuff. Ilovetacotaco sells some good turbo chargers.

My main question in relation to this topic is whether I should get a .50/.63 or .60/.63 turbo, considering I'll be using MegaSquirt-II or MS-III, undecided yet (have a friend that's been using them for more than 10 years now, he knows these EMS)

I plan on getting a cast T3 manifold with external wastegate. I'm looking to obtain above 250whp. I believe I should run relatively large injectors, right? Something like 460cc or more? Should I look into forged pistons and rods or should I just keep stock internals until I decide to go more boost?

My budget is about $2700, and this is what I've broken it down to.


1. Cast iron manifold $200 (add $50 for inside-out ceramic coating from a friend who does that)
2. Turbocharger ($150-$300)
3. Wastegate + BOV ($100)
4. Lines, flanges and welding work ($300)
5. TMIC or FMIC (~$300)
6. Pipes/t-clamps/silicone joints ($100)
7. MS-II ($400) / MS-III ($600)
8. 460cc RX-7 Injectors ($100)
9. Fuel Pump + Regulator ($200 if needed in the first place)
10. Gauges (Wideband, Boost, Oil Press. / $350-400)

Total: $2600

I know it'll be more expensive. I'm just wondering if I'd be able to get some things cheaper. I KNOW cheap/fast/reliable, but there's a fine line between what's considered "cheap" and just shelling out money for overpriced stuff.

I know I can rely on some eBay stuff. Most of the time cheap knockoffs are just as good as the originals, as most companies sell you something cheap for a lot of money because their brand name is on it.


Should I do TMIC or go for FMIC? I've already got the All-Trac hood, so I can fit a nice, small FMIC as a TMIC. I'd rather have a more simple setup, boosting 10-12psi. The less lines/pipes/etc, the better.

[thatmr2]

I say save the trouble and just go with a GT4 clip and go 3SGTE!

[dakotahwyatt]

I say save the trouble and just go with a GT4 clip and go 3SGTE!

I'm not him but to that's what everyone is doing so I say go for it bro

[PolliS_5S-FE]

sick of hearing the 'just go 3sgte' yeah yeah i know its a good motor but cmon, if he wanted to he'd make a post about yet another swap. go 5sfte ftw

[dakotahwyatt]

sick of hearing the 'just go 3sgte' yeah yeah i know its a good motor but cmon, if he wanted to he'd make a post about yet another swap. go 5sfte ftw

^^ I'm with that guy on this one

[rave2n]

For his budget, he cannot go 3sgte.

Though I have no knowledge of this build, It appears you are in the right direction.

[PolliS_5S-FE]

you will need 3sgte oil pan too unless you weld the 5s, I believe you will also need to relocate the oil filter

i much prefer the look of front mount but thats just me.

[Syaoran]

Not to sound rude but first off I dont want to be another swapped celica. I like the torquey 5s vs the slow-without-boost 3s.

Second, its not like 3s engines rain from the sky. Hell, BEAMS 3s is less rare than a turbo one, and on top of that it can be obtained brand new for the same or less as a swap.

That said, anything a 3s can handle, a 5s can handle better, especially with 3s rods and pistons. It also spools any turbo faster, so you can use a bigger turbo than in a 3s with no addition to turbo lag.


That said, thanks for your replies guys! Somebody said something about a 3s oil pan, well I was just going to get a spare 5s pan from a friend threaded for the return line and using the oil press. sensor hole to put in a T-split for oil feed.

Any more input will be appreciated.

I was thinking maybe somebody would throw some warnings about potentially plugged holes like vacuums that wont do harm n/a but will do harm f/i.

i had a friend do his 5sfte build recently and he flooded his distributor with oil because a seal blew from having a couple vacuums wrongly rerouted from his last owner. he rerouted those vacuums properly after a friend of his who deals with MR2s told him some tips.

[Smaay]

I believe you will also need to relocate the oil filter

nope, left mine in the stock location.

for 2700 you can drop in a 1MZ-FE and have just as much power NA. did you find my thread on 5S turbo kits i make? you do NOT want an ebay turbo, they are chinese crap! you want a good garrett or turbonetics turbo. your budget kit that you pieced together will cost you way more in the long run.

[Syaoran]

I believe you will also need to relocate the oil filter

nope, left mine in the stock location.

for 2700 you can drop in a 1MZ-FE and have just as much power NA. did you find my thread on 5S turbo kits i make? you do NOT want an ebay turbo, they are chinese crap! you want a good garrett or turbonetics turbo. your budget kit that you pieced together will cost you way more in the long run.

It's not really as easy as it sounds. A swap takes more knowledge, time, budget and tools than a turbo, and I'm aware of that. Also, finding a good 1MZ that doesn't need a rebuild/refresh is kinda hard in Puerto Rico. If you do find one, it's probably already sold or waaaaay too expensive.

I'm also pretty set on going turbo, as you can see.

Any specific turbo you'd suggest? I want something without an internal wastegate.

[Smaay]

well you have US listed as location, you didnt say PR. and a turbo small enough without an internal gate is hard to find. you could go with a GT28RS but its still internally gated.

a 1MZ i think will still be a cheaper solution. did you find my thread on kits

This post has been edited by Smaay: Jan 14, 2012 - 9:26 PM

[Syaoran]

I saw your kits. The only thing I could use is the manifold and the turbo. All piping is different. I own a 5th gen GT, not a 6thgen, and I'm looking to do a TMIC setup to make use of my all-trac hood as well

[UndecidedPC9397]

Thank god more people are coming out with these 5s-fte threads!!!

[Smaay]

then just use the stock 3S-GTE setup. but i can tell you this. a FMIC is WAY more efficient. any TMIC will heat soak really fast. i have a few TMIC from a ST185 if you need one. i also have a turbo manifold and a good condition CT26 that I used on my first 5S-FTE setup

[Syaoran]

then just use the stock 3S-GTE setup. but i can tell you this. a FMIC is WAY more efficient. any TMIC will heat soak really fast. i have a few TMIC from a ST185 if you need one. i also have a turbo manifold and a good condition CT26 that I used on my first 5S-FTE setup

It was my initial idea. FMIC is way more efficient but more PSI is lost as well. It's a win/loss situation, in which it's only good once you go past a certain limit.

If you could send pictures my way it'd be nice... it's always good to have more options.

[Smaay]

there is no PSI lost with a FMIC, only a tad more lag because its a larger system. you dont know alot about turbo systems do you? i suggest you do alot more research. anyone can make a shopping list but you dont understand how each system works.

why do you think you need an external wastegate?

[Syaoran]

Update: bought an OEM manifold, cleaned up, opened up a bit and ceramic coated good for up to 1600 degrees F... nice black finish.

[JasonTX]

Update: bought an OEM manifold, cleaned up, opened up a bit and ceramic coated good for up to 1600 degrees F... nice black finish.

nice job on the manifold.looks good

just curious why you wouldent want an internally gated turbo? i found with my ct26 the wastegate regulated the pressure pretty precisely.


just tring to give you another perspective


you could avoid having to purchase an extra piece of equipment.

you can always wedge the actuater arm closed so the internal wategate never opens (or wield the gate closed) then add an external later if the internal wont suite your needs

you may find with your desired psi/driving style a supper precise wastegate may not be necessary


in any case, good luck on the build and please keep us posted on the progress

peace

-jec



This post has been edited by JasonTX: Jan 28, 2012 - 1:00 AM

[Syaoran]

Hey thanks for the comments.

When it comes to the turbo part of the build, I'd rather have separate serviceable "chunks" than All-in-One stuff because, for example, if the wastegate for one reason or the other goes bad, then I'd have to fix/seal the wastegate and turbo as a whole, or get a new turbo. If I get a turbo with no IWG and the external gate goes bad, I can rebuild/replace the gate and be done with it.

I was looking into a CT-26, but there's a couple of reasons holding me back from pulling the trigger on one. For starters it's an older turbocharger. Most of the time you'll find one with 150k miles or more on it. Second, it's a bit more complex to run because of an added line for coolant (which is worth it in the end because it helps prolong turbo life, but it makes the setup less neat).

Performance-wise, I feel the CT-26 is too little for the extra .2L displacement of the 5s-fe. I could get a marginally bigger turbo and have just as fast spool as a 3s-gte with a CT-26, all with a bit more power at the same PSI level. I also have the benefit of having a brand new turbo/less beat-up turbo vs a 16-20 year old turbo.

Nothing is written in stone yet so things might change from here to there.

[presure2]

Your on the right track, don't bother with the ct-26.
Above 270whp, the tune is gonna be critical. One good hiccup, and kiss the stock ringlands goodbye.
For 300+whp, I would definetly do forged pistons, the rods are not weak, but the rod bolts are known to strech in Tue older 5th gen motors.
If I were building another 5sfte today, I would do it one of 2 ways.
For sub 300whp, I would grab a 20b, run 16-17psi with water injection with a stock unopened motor, with the emanage ultimate, or ms, and tune it myself.
For above that, I would drop in a set of stock sized forgies get cams and have an intake manifold made,, spend all my money on an ems and tuning, and run a gt3071 or somthing similar.

[Syaoran]

Thanks for your comments presure.

I was looking to stay sub 300whp as I know that coupe Celicas are on the lighter side of the spectrum, and something like 250-270whp on this car is near as fast as +300whp on a car with 500lbs more (like a Subaru, Scion, Genesis, etc...)

I have a friend who's done a turbo on his '93 MR2 which has the exact same engine as my Celica (rev2)

So I was going to see how his setup fares in a couple of months, and see where I'm going to go. I want to keep some of the parts as inexpensive as possible. If I can get a cheap turbo from say, eBay, that's going to last me a year before it goes bad because it's only oil-cooled, and it's only costing me $120 brand new, I'd rather keep buying the same turbo for 6-7 years, than get an 800-900 turbo because the expensive, higher-quality turbo will take a chunk off my wallet at once, rather than little chunks every year.

I'm not cheaping out on the manifold (even though I sort of cheated because it's an OEM one...) because I don't want stainless steel manifolds cracking on me and heating up my engine bay unnecesarily.

Not cheaping out on the oil lines, because I've known people who've had burned oil lines crack and turn the oil on fire inside the engine bay. Not something I wanna go through with my car.

I'm not cheaping out on the waste gate, so that it doesn't lock up on me, puts in some more boost than what my car is tuned for and blow my engine. I've had friends with stuck wastegates doing 16-17psi when their tune is for 12-14 psi. Don't wanna go through that either. Getting a tial wastegate, or something of better quality.

Basically, I'm going to "cheap out" on the turbo and spend that difference in money on other components, rather than the turbo itself which is just ONE part of the whole puzzle.

That's my idea.

[Smaay]

you still have no idea what you are doing.... dude i hate to rip on you but your logic just blows my mind. why are you trying to re-invent the wheel.

[presure2]

you still have no idea what you are doing.... dude i hate to rip on you but your logic just blows my mind. why are you trying to re-invent the wheel.

why? because he is planning on an ebay turbo, and not one of your "kits"?
please.

i built shannons setup with an ebay turbo years ago, it was a blast, and she got several years out of it IIRC.

[Syaoran]

you still have no idea what you are doing.... dude i hate to rip on you but your logic just blows my mind. why are you trying to re-invent the wheel.

What don't you understand? Maybe I'm not wording it right, so I could try to explain my reasoning a bit better.

What do you mean I'm trying to reinvent the wheel?

[Smaay]

i havent even mentioned my kits, i cont even produce one right now.

[evo_lucian]

I'm with smaay on this one. The OP is overcomplicating a simple thing by overthinking everything .

If I were in your shoes I would just pick up the 3sgte turbo parts ( manifold, turbo, down pipe, lines etc )and bolt on the 5s . 3s guys are selling these parts dirt cheap when they upgrade. Sure the CT26 are old but replacement turbo's go for cheap all the time. Keep it simple with the 3sgte parts and if the turbo dies down the road, rebuild it , swap in another or get a CT to t3 adapter and pick up a good t3 flanged turbo to replace it.

Stay clear of eBay turbos . No matter what anyone says the facts are there . They are hit or miss. They work great for some but are night mares for others. You don't want to be the one who gets one and have the compressor wheel come off and pollute your engine bits of metal. The risk is not worth it.

[3WayStunna]

OP i would just give extra attention to the ebay turbo you purchase. Ill be honest im not too savvy when it comes to ebay turbo's but im sure that a proper setup like you have planned "SHOULD" negate any issues.....

Out of curiosity do the ebay turbo's come water cooled as well...like i said i wouldnt know and am just curious....

[Syaoran]

I'm with smaay on this one. The OP is overcomplicating a simple thing by overthinking everything .

If I were in your shoes I would just pick up the 3sgte turbo parts ( manifold, turbo, down pipe, lines etc )and bolt on the 5s . 3s guys are selling these parts dirt cheap when they upgrade. Sure the CT26 are old but replacement turbo's go for cheap all the time. Keep it simple with the 3sgte parts and if the turbo dies down the road, rebuild it , swap in another or get a CT to t3 adapter and pick up a good t3 flanged turbo to replace it.

Stay clear of eBay turbos . No matter what anyone says the facts are there . They are hit or miss. They work great for some but are night mares for others. You don't want to be the one who gets one and have the compressor wheel come off and pollute your engine bits of metal. The risk is not worth it.

I've heard the stories, but they're also from over 5 years ago. CT-26 aren't going for "dirt cheap", at least not cheaper than eBay turbos. All I can find is $200 for one that doesn't need repairing. Proper repairing most of the time takes re-balancing and stuff that will just end up costing me way more than it should, and the CT-26 isn't the best turbo to begin with.

OP i would just give extra attention to the ebay turbo you purchase. Ill be honest im not too savvy when it comes to ebay turbo's but im sure that a proper setup like you have planned "SHOULD" negate any issues.....

Out of curiosity do the ebay turbo's come water cooled as well...like i said i wouldnt know and am just curious....

Haven't seen an eBay turbo that's watercooled yet.

[Smaay]

you dont have to have a water cooled turbo, none of my turbos are watercooled, My 7th gen making 550, nope, my Supra making 700, nope, my 6th gen with a CT26, NOPE. I didnt hook up the water lines. Ran just fine for 10,000 miles. Id still be running it if i wasnt putting a 1MZ in it.

[Syaoran]

So as far as an update. Before doing anything forced induction-related, I took the path where I get to put my car in tip-top shape before doing anything to it. The deeper I dig into it, the more I am glad I have taken this decision. The previous owner clearly didn't know **** about cars and rigged all kinds of **** to make the car work with the least amount of money put into it.

Things I've done as of recently:

1. Fixed my high-idle issue. Car is still idling high, but I like it like this, because it makes #2 below much more bearable during daily driving.
2. Didn't replace my broken engine mounts. Patched them up with Kirkosaurus inserts front and rear. Car feels a little better when shifting.
3. Fixed my A/C. Compressor was leaking. Evaporator is working fine. Had the compressor rebuilt and all seals in the lines replaced to change the system to use r134a. All the line seals were replaced because the seals for r134a are bigger than freon-12 due to it working at higher pressures than freon-12. Also had the dryer replaced. Total was $275 out the door, parts and labor.
4. Put an OEM thermostat in the car. It had none.
5. Fixed the powersteering presure send hose.
6. Got new shock absorbers (monroe sensacraps with lifetime warranty) for the front only. Still bottoms out in the front. Mechanic and I figured it was the springs. Previous owner cut the springs and heated them. Protip: DON'T HEAT NOR CUT EIBACH PRO-KIT. Bought some new Sprint Lowering Springs on eBay for $185.. hope they're good.
7. New strut mounts. Need new top hats.
8. New front drivetrain. Rack and Pinion inner and outer ends, swaybar links, balljoints.. etc..
9. Fuel Pump went bad. Replaced it with a Nippon Denso universal fit and spliced the new harness.

That is all for now I think... Up next will be the springs, and a Megasquirt-II. Then will come the turbo, if nothing else pops up.