Boosting Beams, Plans and improvement on those plans Options

[ricochet1490]

I' ve been considering this as my build progresses and it's something I want to do after I get the car on the road.... but something I want to do nonetheless. I don't want a terribly high investment but 200+ WHP would be a great feeling.... and this is where I'm looking for expertise outside of mine....

Internals are remaining factory
Looking at going with a supercharger and I don't really like how "cluttered" the engine bay looks with a turbo .... it also isn't as "peaky" and should be more smooth to the power
My initial thought is that I want to keep the stock ECU so I'm assuming I have to stay at about 5psi or so for this to happen?
I'm frankly not sure what the stock beams ecu can handle as far as boost is concerned. Any thoughts?
What are my best tuning options? I want something that is tunable and the toyota ecu not be able to change it (if that makes sense... these things are smart)
I want to keep the CR stock as well. With a proper tune, and the low boost numbers it shouldn't be a big deal I don't think, just gotta watch for knock
Keeping the boost low like that, I'm HOPING that the stock fuel pump is adequate to handle the increased load...
More importantly the injector size of the BEAMS has been debated. The books say 340 cc while the bench test hat the guy did on Daniels injectors reported 400 cc flat. If they are 400cc, I don't think I'll need to upgrade those either... but again, I just don't know.

My biggest questions at the moment are involved around ECU and the tuning, but any and all help would be appreciated

[njccmd2002]

this will cost you a pretty penny, unfortunately its all theory, as not many boosted beams, though difficult not impossible, go head out to MR2.com. youll get better results..

[delusionz]

doing the quick and dirty, maybe you should ask that guy al95st for his bit of kit, adapt it for your beams. use a cheap air/fuel controller and theres your cheap boost


to do it properly, i would suggest a full gen4 build, the gte head would be better for boost, but since you want the vvti and the red covers (yeah why not its cool) then yeah, do a beams head rebuild. standalone ecu will give you an onboard map sensor to eliminate the AFM.

[ricochet1490]

The beams head flows better than a gen 3. And I've been reading most everything I can on the.beams owners group forum, and it seems like those who've done it had a stand alone ecu. Although, their power goals were more substantial than mine

Protok in that forum I believe it was did a turbo build on stock internals and ran 10 to 14 psi. I don't want to go cheap.... I want it done right, but just modest boost values naturally means less $

[Syaoran]

First thing you have to consider is the chance of detonation from running boost on a high compression engine. It's going to be much higher than an N/A, 9.5:1 engine like the 5s-fe.

Once you've made yourself aware of that, you should check to see if what you want is really that. Unless you plan on running 93 octane along with water/meth injection, I wouldn't boost it, not even with a supercharger, since you are so concerned with longevity.

I'd try to find more info about pistons, see if you can find a set with at least a 9.5:1 compression ratio or lower. I don't know of 3sgte pistons are compatible with the Beams head.

Turbo is going to be the easiest way to do it. You can run a piggy back, and change the MAF configuration to a pull-through system, where the MAF is located on the turbo intake rather than the cold pipe. EMS is the best option of course but it's much more expensive and since you're aiming for moderate, then your tuning solution should follow suit as well, it all depends on how the stock ECU behaves. With a piggy back you can also keep the VVT-i, which, believe me, will make a TON of difference in total horsepower.

The Beams is a rev-happy engine so you could choose to go big turbo for big power, or smaller turbo for drivability. I wouldn't be afraid to put a GT35R on there with a 7000+RPM redline...

Some quick thoughts/suggestions for you.

This post has been edited by Syaoran: Jul 6, 2012 - 11:08 AM

[ricochet1490]

I want to keep the good qualities of the beams if possible. Those qualities are the 11:1 cr and the vvti for me. I still want it to feel like a beams when I'm not in boost.
The new eco boost engine from ford that's in the f150 is twin turbo charged at 10:1....knowing that,.there is no reason why I couldn't low boost at 10 or 10.5 to 1 with proper tuning. I'd be willing to spend extra on a piggy back with a really good tune to keep the high cr...
And this car would only ever get premium.... Or else it would explode lol

Thinking about the turbo vs sc.... The turbo would be cheaper, but protok on the beams forum said when the turbo kicked in right about the same time as the vvti, it made a ton of power, but really hurt drivability.
If I could score a supercharger from an old buick regal and make that work.... Lol


Thanks for the input so far guys. Huge help.
?
So what would you recommend as a good piggy back for this application assuming the stock ecu can't do what I want

[Syaoran]

I want to keep the good qualities of the beams if possible. Those qualities are the 11:1 cr and the vvti for me. I still want it to feel like a beams when I'm not in boost.
The new eco boost engine from ford that's in the f150 is twin turbo charged at 10:1....knowing that,.there is no reason why I couldn't low boost at 10 or 10.5 to 1 with proper tuning. I'd be willing to spend extra on a piggy back with a really good tune to keep the high cr...
And this car would only ever get premium.... Or else it would explode lol

Thinking about the turbo vs sc.... The turbo would be cheaper, but protok on the beams forum said when the turbo kicked in right about the same time as the vvti, it made a ton of power, but really hurt drivability.
If I could score a supercharger from an old buick regal and make that work.... Lol


Thanks for the input so far guys. Huge help.
?
So what would you recommend as a good piggy back for this application assuming the stock ecu can't do what I want

The stock ECU definitely won't do what you want, that's for sure. Either way, there is no way I would personally run boost on the stock system in any car that didn't come boosted from the factory.

Yes, you can run boost on high-compression engines. It's been done before many many times. It's really sensitive and dangerous to do it, however, and I wouldn't do it on an otherwise stock, high-compression engine; that goes for both turbo and superchargers.

Again, take the idea out of your mind that you won't need at least a decent piggyback. Something like an AEM FIC or a GReddy Ultimate would be your best bet. Most seem to be happy using the GReddy unit on Celica ECUs, and you can get a decent tune from it, while keeping VVT-i working like it should as well.

I don't know what you know about ECUs but the only option that will mess up your VVT-i is going standalone. Piggybacks use the stock ECU for everything except open loop tuning.


"The turbo" kicks in at different RPMs, it all depends on what size turbo you run. Considering that the engine is a high-compression engine, I wouldn't run anything bigger than a GT28RS, and even that I think it's too big. You can spool up a small turbo at 2500 RPMs, or a bigger one at 4400 RPMs, it all depends on tune, size and type of turbo you're using.

Turbo will always be better than supercharger in the sense that it is not a drag to the engine, it doesn't take power to make power. It reuses otherwise wasted energy to make even more power, so turbo is a much better option.

The F150 has a crap ton of sensors and ECU settings that will protect the engine to its best ability from destroying itself, which is something you do not have. It's tuned to have 2 turbos on there, unlike your car which is tuned to have no turbo. You have to be very careful with a custom turbo setup on a n/a high-compression engine...

It's usually best to lower compression for the fact that the power and torque that you lost from going from 11:1 to 9:1 is minimal compared to the power and torque you will gain from boosting 20psi. The main advantage of your engine is not the compression, it's the headflow. Beams head flows really well, even better than the 3sgte head, so you'll probably make more power with the same mods as a comparable 3sgte.

[ricochet1490]

So check mark on the piggyback. Got it.
Now it should be re noted that 5 to 10 psi is all I'm looking for. Twenty will never happen. Not even 15 I can promise you.
as far as internals are concerned, I was under the impression that the beams and the 4thgen 3sgte had the same rods. Now I could be mistaken, and I know the 4th gen rods are known to be weak, but if they are the same, that would mean at least that part of the engine was designed for boost.

Now with such a low boost number, does a guy even need some form of charge cooling like an fmic?

[Syaoran]

So check mark on the piggyback. Got it.
Now it should be re noted that 5 to 10 psi is all I'm looking for. Twenty will never happen. Not even 15 I can promise you.
as far as internals are concerned, I was under the impression that the beams and the 4thgen 3sgte had the same rods. Now I could be mistaken, and I know the 4th gen rods are known to be weak, but if they are the same, that would mean at least that part of the engine was designed for boost.

Now with such a low boost number, does a guy even need some form of charge cooling like an fmic?

In a high compression setup you need that air to be as cold as you can get it to be... otherwise knock will kill your engine.

So yes, you need an fmic. If the rods are the same as the 4th gen rods, I'd look into upgrading them before boosting.

[delusionz]

Yeah forget the high compression, even a stock gen3 3sgte will give you more low end torque than the 3sge beams

[ricochet1490]

As per toyo diy, the caldina turbo and the beams have some of the same part numbers for the connecting rods. So that is validated.
Some reading for those who are interested

Thoughts on Beams turbo set up http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...y-good-bad.html

The longest build thread in history, beams supercharged http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...percharger.html

Then there is this recently posted thread http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...bo-project.html

[Syaoran]

I insist, what you want from the beams isn't the high-compression setup, it's the cylinder head.

Superchargers will only get you so much, and high compression boost is just asking for unnecessary problems. I'd do a low-compression, medium-boost build with forged Rods & Pistons... If your engine is in good condition you could literally just drop them into the crank and be done with it.

[richee3]

Nobody is arguing that the 3S-GTE is better than the BEAMS in terms of power or boost in general. There's no argument that low compression is better than high compression for boosting. Trace is merely seeking knowledge for improving an already good engine, raising the ~175 whp to ~200 whp while retaining the feel of the BEAMS. Is that the gist of it, Trace?

Off topic: BEAMS head on a 3S-GTE block is FTW.

[ricochet1490]

Dan you pretty much pegged it. Lol thanks buddy

[Smaay]

you guys and your Boners for BEAMS. Im still not impressed with a BEAMS. but thats just my opinion.

now ill throw my 2 cents in. 1ZZ-FE rods are toothpicks and they can support 300HP so i wouldnt worry about the rods. id worry more about the pistons. we have been boosting 2ZZ-GE engines for a long time now and as long as yoru tune is good, you will be fine at 7-10 psi. but that all depends on the turbo. a GT28RS, yes. A GT35R NO! you are not even in the efficiency range of the 35R at that low a boost. and its way too much air. Remeber its not about boost, its about CFM.

[ricochet1490]

Smaay,
Thanks for the rod insight....

I almost don't want to ask your opinion on the matter lol
But what about CR?
Is that why you're worried about the pistons

This post has been edited by ricochet1490: Jul 6, 2012 - 7:47 PM

[Syaoran]

There's no argument that low compression is better than high compression for boosting. Trace is merely seeking knowledge for improving an already good engine, raising the ~175 whp to ~200 whp while retaining the feel of the BEAMS.

Well if that's the case a 50 shot of nitrous should do it!

[ricochet1490]

So I learned today... to help answer some questions, that 3sgte pistons can be fitted to the Beams, but the compression ratio will increase to something about 11.2:1
Just soem food for thought.

Also on the order of 300hp... if the rods are good until then, and you can tune it right.... you get my drift.

[Neon90424]

I thought caldina rods were made of cheese... Seems like a fun proyect but I would go with aft mkt ecu and e85 with that CR

[ricochet1490]

the trouble for me has been finding either an after market ecu or a god piggy back and someone to tune the dang thing. The closest I've come is 4 hours from my house and they don't even do toyota..... they're all about audi, porche, VW, etc.... #frustrated

[ricochet1490]

triple post


This post has been edited by ricochet1490: Jul 26, 2012 - 5:49 PM

[kurt95gt]

the trouble for me has been finding either an after market ecu or a god piggy back and someone to tune the dang thing. The closest I've come is 4 hours from my house and they don't even do toyota..... they're all about audi, porche, VW, etc.... #frustrated

There's a shop in Toledo that does toyotas
There called accelerated performance

[Syaoran]

Tuning a car isn't that hard, ESPECIALLY when using a piggy back... start from a very safe point (a lot of fuel and very little timing) and increase bit by bit as you go. A stethoscope to listen for knock and a dyno to tune it would be awesome.

A tuner will charge you a **** ton of money for something that he probably doesn't have a clue on how to do.

[3WayStunna]

Think ill keep my eye on this thread; See how it develops...

[Neon90424]

theres a booosted Altezza down here...boosted black top... hks everything. came like that from japan

[ricochet1490]

Tuning a car isn't that hard, ESPECIALLY when using a piggy back... start from a very safe point (a lot of fuel and very little timing) and increase bit by bit as you go. A stethoscope to listen for knock and a dyno to tune it would be awesome.

A tuner will charge you a **** ton of money for something that he probably doesn't have a clue on how to do.

That's what worries me, If I end up S/C or T/C, am I going to be able to find a good tuner that won't waste my time or money. And if I can't my learning curve is going to be pretty steep....

Right now I've PM'd a guy about getting a greddy emanage ultimate that he had installed on a 90 alltrac... I'm assuming I could make it work. but at 400$ (what he's asking) it's a pretty hefty investment to be unsure....

[Syaoran]

The e-manage works on practically any car. You just gotta wire it in. It works on engines with MAFs so it should work on yours.

[SwissFerdi]

The supercharger idea seems interesting to me, because both the BEAMS and the SC work best at high RPM. Seems like a better match than turbo. May run into mounting issues, since the 3S-GE is tilted back slightly.

This post has been edited by SwissFerdi: Jul 23, 2012 - 3:33 PM

[ricochet1490]

The supercharger idea seems interesting to me, because both the BEAMS and the SC work best at high RPM. Seems like a better match than turbo. May run into mounting issues, since the 3S-GE is tilted back slightly.

Should be plenty of space behind the block....

But I agree, the SC may be better. One reason is the lack of turbo exhaust manifolds, or even aftermarket ex manifolds period for the BEAMS. Just depends on if you could adapt cheaper parts that work IF your goals are low amounts of boost. I've been trying to acquire an old GM supercharger off of an old buick regal to see if there is any way to dis assemble and mount it up... namely because those parts are plentiful and one could reasonably get one for cheap if you knew where to look

[Syaoran]

A supercharger isn't better or safer than a turbo. Turbo lets you do much more than a supercharger. If you want the turbo to work at high RPMs only, you can put on a GT35R. If you want to compliment the BEAMS, you can do so with a smaller turbo, have it give the engine a little torque before VVT-i then a huge boost in power when the VVT-i goes on.

The supercharger will take away low-end power in exchange for a tiny bit (compared to a turbo) high-end power... And like I said it's not "safer". It would take a lot more fabrication than a turbo.

If you wanted, you could literally weld a flange at the collector of the stock header and put the turbo there. You could cut your stock manifold flange and adapt it to a previous-gen stainless steel manifold (like the 2nd gen 3sgte tubular manifold)... etc etc.

[ricochet1490]

If you wanted, you could literally weld a flange at the collector of the stock header and put the turbo there. You could cut your stock manifold flange and adapt it to a previous-gen stainless steel manifold (like the 2nd gen 3sgte tubular manifold)... etc etc.

I have all the welding and fab skiills needed for any of this...and this is a heck of an idea.
Keep the stock header and 4-2 and 2-1 collector of the stock beams b-pipe, and then put your turbo and turbo flange etc etc under the car. protect it with an underbelly pan like vincent doggy and culpable sell, or make your own..

or put it afte the 4-2 collector and have in the front but down and out of the way towards the front before subframe gets in the way....

Syaoran, nice idea...

But also good idea about taking a gen two manifold and adapting the beams mounting plate... I've got all the welders needed for that.... I just ate how it looks.
Afte the collector feels like it would be a "cleaner" look.

This post has been edited by ricochet1490: Jul 24, 2012 - 11:44 AM

[KAOS]

Very interested to see how this turns out.

[ricochet1490]

what do the pros think?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-GT28RS-A...765&vxp=mtr

[ricochet1490]

better yet....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...atchlink:top:en

[delusionz]

you need atleast a t28 spec turbo for a 2L, that little t25 size turbo will choke at high rpm where the engine would normally flow more air than the turbo can provide, what you will see is 12psi at 2000rpm and slowly go back 11,10,9,8...0psi by 6000rpm

[delusionz]

a regular t28bb non-rs would be best bet for a turbo beams, the one on the jdm s15 spec-r or in garretts catalogue "gt2560r"

you really need turbo (low) compression for the gt28rs (gt2860rs) as these things are happy to spool up 22psi faster than your foot can sink to the floor, and thats not the kind of boost you want to be running on a high compression beams motor, so you may aswell save yourself some lag by getting a turbo thats more efficient at lower pressures like 7-10psi which is precisely how the jdm sr20det turbo operates.

that plain "t25" size turbo is more suited to a 1.6-1.8L engine running 7psi, to boost peak hp around 200hp which is already what your beams motor makes so provides Nothing at all.
the idea of this turbo is to give you the power and torque of a high performance 2 litre NA in a small lightweight 1.6 package.

when I chose the turbo for my engine i did alot of research comparing compressor maps, dyno plots. i knew exactly what my goals were in terms of peak power potential, how early torque became available, i had to fit within the limits of factory tuning, i had to have a turbo that spooled early to give me torque outside of (before) the natural 3sgte engine torque band (4000-6000) and also not die off after (6000-7000), and also fit in with my no lag factory w2a setup but not outflow it, etc and while i'm happy to rave about what a great turbo the gt2860rs is, its not the right choice for every 3s setup

This post has been edited by delusionz: Jul 27, 2012 - 11:05 AM

[ricochet1490]

Delusionz - I wish we had a "thank" button. that helps provide me with a better range to look in. I'm trying to figure out what it all means all at once and it can sometimes be a little over bearing.... steep learning curve

[delusionz]

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbocharger


What you'd be looking for is a small turbo that has a higher flow rate at a 1.5 pressure ratio up to 2x.

2x pressure ratio means twice atmospheric, so in other words if atmo(0boost) is 1bar/14.7psi then 2x pressure ratio would be 1bar boost, 3x would be 2bar boost etc...

if you work out how much air your engine will ingest on its own at the redline, you need to be well above that with the turbo in order to keep making boost

btw i had another look


wouldnt let me put this one as an image
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarre...1&4comp.jpg



seems the GT28RS is better than the T28R at low boost AND high boost (my bad)

[Syaoran]

Here's an item you could look into:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MR2-Celica-T25-T28...9d5&vxp=mtr


You could cut the 3s-gte flange off and weld on your BEAMS flange to it, and you'd have a nice manifold ready for a t25 flanged turbo.

[Neon90424]

I did the same thing have the same manifold, ordered 3rd gen flange from the UK and welded it on...

[3WayStunna]

I would take a read at this mans testimonial...And some others as well.

Turbo Redtop

Supercharged Redtop (long read)


Personally i dont have any advice to offer on my own. Although i am still in the works with my redtop build, its far different from yours and the best advice that can be given, was already typed.

But i would definitely read the links above. Alot of people have traveled down this road from what it seems.

[ricochet1490]

links already posted on page 1. read them both. But thanks for re-iterating the importance!!

And not a lot of people have been down this road from what I can tell... its charted only by those who have $$, no girl friends or wives, and the time and energy to devote to making something fully custom...
Luxerys most of us don't have including myself

[3WayStunna]

links already posted on page 1. read them both. But thanks for re-iterating the importance!!

And not a lot of people have been down this road from what I can tell... its charted only by those who have $$, no girl friends or wives, and the time and energy to devote to making something fully custom...
Luxerys most of us don't have including myself

Lol no problem, im here to make sure the point gets across....Umm to others, hahahaha....but it sounds like you have much to work past in this endeavor....Good luck and ill just sit back and continue to monitor this thread....

[BonzaiCelica]

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-parts-swap...et-up-sale.html

[ricochet1490]

holy shat..... i'm speecheless

[BonzaiCelica]

that would be nice!! for $3,600 plus an aem stand alone $1,200 with another $500 in tuning. That setup is capable of another 100whp to the beams motor. $5,000 for another 100-150whp not bad, plus unique factor

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Sep 28, 2012 - 11:34 PM

[njccmd2002]

after so much money he quit?

he spent years developing that, he barely finished couple months ago, gives you the idea of how much power he did not make, because he wants more..

sorry guys, just look behind the curtains.

the beams is an awesome n/a engine as is, but if you want more power from it, better forget it. as it will cost you, and in the end you wont be satisfied.

thats his story... its sad, but true

[richee3]

He's not quitting. He's going bigger.

[njccmd2002]

I think hes going to sell it... but then again maybe not..

wish him luck.

[Smaay]

that is not worth it to me. i wouldnt spend anywhere near that much money for 100 HP

[kurt95gt]

Seems like a lot of work to end up with a 3sgte with vvti.
That might not even make as good of power as a 3sgte swap

[BonzaiCelica]

GEEZ ALL YOU DEBBIE DOWNERS, we know you can spend that money on a 3sgte a get twice as much hp. price is not what we are after.

[Smaay]

i dont know what everyone fascination with the BEAMS is. its still an iron block engine that only makes 200HP to the crank. the power to weight ratio is just not there.

[ricochet1490]

They could have made it out of aluminum.... you and I both know that. But from a cost standpoint i'm sure toyota said hey... we want the same block and we could make it out of aluminum, but that would mean re-making the dies etc etc.

I think of it as a more baller 1/2zz that doesn't burn oil, has better power and torque, and is a direct bolt it that has a really nicely flowing head that looks nice in the engine bay, and looks good with the red valvecover/intake manifold LOL

just a motor smaay.... frankly I"m not impressed with 3.0L+ v6 only making 200 flywheel hp

[kurt95gt]

The v6 is more about the two lol
It feels a lot faster than it should be lol

[BonzaiCelica]

yea they could of made it aluminum. Also to my surprise the 1990+ Acura NSX already made aluminum engines. I thought it was only late 90's technology.

btw smaay finish your swap already. that way we can have a meet in so cal and would like to see that v6 power!

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Oct 3, 2012 - 11:23 AM