3sgte St205 vs Mr2 Options

[Amanda66]

Ok guys I wana know if the 3sgte out of an MR2 is a direct bolt in to my 97 Celica ST. Please help. I've been told so many different things.

[Syaoran]

No.

You'll also need a transmission.

3S-GTE will bolt in to a GT Celica with the 5S-FE engine and the S54 5-speed trans on the GT Celicas is compatible with the 3S-GTE.

[Smaay]

for the amount of money you are going to spend on a 3S-GTE swap, you will spend half on a V6 swap

[Amanda66]

No.

You'll also need a transmission.

3S-GTE will bolt in to a GT Celica with the 5S-FE engine and the S54 5-speed trans on the GT Celicas is compatible with the 3S-GTE.

I knew I needed another transmission. I just wana know if the motor out of the MR2 is the same as the one out of an ST205.

[Box]

for the amount of money you are going to spend on a 3S-GTE swap, you will spend half on a V6 swap

Not to mention the V6 makes the same power as the 2nd gen 3S-GTE, but NO LAG.

[Syaoran]

No.

You'll also need a transmission.

3S-GTE will bolt in to a GT Celica with the 5S-FE engine and the S54 5-speed trans on the GT Celicas is compatible with the 3S-GTE.

I knew I needed another transmission. I just wana know if the motor out of the MR2 is the same as the one out of an ST205.

Yes and no.

GT-4 celicas have a 3rd gen 3S-GTE while most MR2s have a 2nd gen 3S-GTE.

If you can find a post-93 MR2, it will probably have the 3rd gen 3S-GTE.

[Box]

All USDM MR2's had the 2nd gen 3S-GTE.

[Syaoran]

All USDM MR2's had the 2nd gen 3S-GTE.

USDM only had them until 92 I believe.

[Box]

They had them until 95 when the car was discontinued for the U.S. market.

This post has been edited by Box: Sep 19, 2012 - 12:57 AM

[Amanda66]

ok so to make sure i am understanding this properly......the mr2 motor will not bolt into my car UNLESS it's after '93????

[Box]

It won't be direct unless you have a Celica that already has a S series engine. E.G. The GT with a 5S-FE.

[Xander_X]

Ugh ... confusion confusion lol. The 2nd gen 3SGTE will bolt in as long as you have a matching transmission (As you already know). The problem is with the 2nd gen, there is a bit of extra work to do with the wiring and sensors. The 3rd gen is much easier to work with as it was the generation that came out of our cars anyways. Now ALSO the engine out of the MR2 is set up a bit differently as well with some components moved around a bit and the wiring is different. Your best bet, unless someone is basically handing you a 3sgte out of an Mr2, is to get a 3rd gen IF you are dead set on a 3sgte.



This post has been edited by Xander_X: Sep 19, 2012 - 3:27 PM

[Smaay]

^^^ perfect answer

[Amanda66]

Ugh ... confusion confusion lol. The 2nd gen 3SGTE will bolt in as long as you have a matching transmission (As you already know). The problem is with the 2nd gen, there is a bit of extra work to do with the wiring and sensors. The 3rd gen is much easier to work with as it was the generation that came out of our cars anyways. Now ALSO the engine out of the MR2 is set up a bit differently as well with some components moved around a bit and the wiring is different. Your best bet, unless someone is basically handing you a 3sgte out of an Mr2, is to get a 3rd gen IF you are dead set on a 3sgte.

ok so next questions are:
what years are 3rd gen?
and can i do this in my st?

thank you

[Xander_X]

1994 - 1999 ST205
1995 - 1999 SW20

And I think we already covered whether it would FIT in your ST or not. The ST is the same chassis as the GT so yes it will FIT. But you'll have to do some extra work than you would have to do in a GT. There are stickies up for the 3SGTE swap, plenty of threads you can check out and follow of other who have done it and people willing to help you with the details as you begin and finish it. Do some research, google the **** out of the engine and swap, learn EVERYTHING you can before you get too involved.

[lagos]

for the amount of money you are going to spend on a 3S-GTE swap, you will spend half on a V6 swap

Not to mention the V6 makes the same power as the 2nd gen 3S-GTE, but NO LAG.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you have never actually driven a 3sgte powered Celica.

[Amanda66]

for the amount of money you are going to spend on a 3S-GTE swap, you will spend half on a V6 swap

Not to mention the V6 makes the same power as the 2nd gen 3S-GTE, but NO LAG.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you have never actually driven a 3sgte powered Celica.

I've ridden in my friend Kevin's Celica and he did the 3SGTE swap on his and I love it I hate when we do our cruises I always get stuck next to him and all I can hear is his turbo blowing off...I can hear it over my system and I just laugh and shake my fist at him and tell him just wait lol

1994 - 1999 ST205
1995 - 1999 SW20

And I think we already covered whether it would FIT in your ST or not. The ST is the same chassis as the GT so yes it will FIT. But you'll have to do some extra work than you would have to do in a GT. There are stickies up for the 3SGTE swap, plenty of threads you can check out and follow of other who have done it and people willing to help you with the details as you begin and finish it. Do some research, google the **** out of the engine and swap, learn EVERYTHING you can before you get too involved.

You are super awesome thank you so much.

[Box]

for the amount of money you are going to spend on a 3S-GTE swap, you will spend half on a V6 swap

Not to mention the V6 makes the same power as the 2nd gen 3S-GTE, but NO LAG.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you have never actually driven a 3sgte powered Celica.

No, but I've driven faster cars if that counts.

[Amanda66]

for the amount of money you are going to spend on a 3S-GTE swap, you will spend half on a V6 swap

Not to mention the V6 makes the same power as the 2nd gen 3S-GTE, but NO LAG.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you have never actually driven a 3sgte powered Celica.

No, but I've driven faster cars if that counts.

Lol counts for something.

[Box]

All turbo cars have some degree of lag. Hell the WRC ST205 had an anti-lag system, so a standard 3S-GTE will have lag.

[Batman722]

for the amount of money you are going to spend on a 3S-GTE swap, you will spend half on a V6 swap

Not to mention the V6 makes the same power as the 2nd gen 3S-GTE, but NO LAG.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you have never actually driven a 3sgte powered Celica.

Well said Art.
I don't agree that you'll spend half on a v6 swap, that's just crap.
My 3s swap had virtually no lag and would kill any v6 put into any Celica.

[Box]

Well, considering the 1MZ-FE is half what a 3S-GTE costs...

This post has been edited by Box: Sep 20, 2012 - 4:00 PM

[richee3]

Well said Art.
I don't agree that you'll spend half on a v6 swap, that's just crap.
My 3s swap had virtually no lag and would kill any v6 put into any Celica.

My butt dyno and childish grin second this statement.

[Amanda66]

All turbo cars have some degree of lag. Hell the WRC ST205 had an anti-lag system, so a standard 3S-GTE will have lag.

Yeah I understand that...My room mate has a 1967 Camaro with an LS1 in it with one of those hugh turbos on it...thing takes forever to spool up. Sounds like a jet airplane while it is lmfao

[Amanda66]

Well said Art.
I don't agree that you'll spend half on a v6 swap, that's just crap.
My 3s swap had virtually no lag and would kill any v6 put into any Celica.

My butt dyno and childish grin second this statement.

you guys are my heros lmao I can't wait till I get this started I'm so excited. I have the money I'm just trying to do some research first. I was told by my friend Kevin that i needed to do the disc brake conversion. Which I am going to go looking for this Saturday and swap out my transmission to one out of a gt as well. so brakes then tranny then motor....hopefully YAY

[richee3]

Is your friend Soulend, by any chance?

[Smaay]

for the amount of money you are going to spend on a 3S-GTE swap, you will spend half on a V6 swap

Not to mention the V6 makes the same power as the 2nd gen 3S-GTE, but NO LAG.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you have never actually driven a 3sgte powered Celica.

only my ALL-TRAC

Which I am going to go looking for this Saturday and swap out my transmission to one out of a gt as well.

if you have a ST then there would be NO POINT in installing a GT transmission. IT WONT FIT!

this is what we have been talking about. 3 of the 4 engine mounts are on the transmission and the GT and ST have different transmissions so the mounts are in different places. if you are going to get a GT trans, thats fine, just dont install it until you are ready to install a 3S-GTE or a V6, and the GT trans will NOT bolt to the 7A-FE engine

This post has been edited by Smaay: Sep 20, 2012 - 5:14 PM

[Amanda66]

Is your friend Soulend, by any chance?

lol yes

for the amount of money you are going to spend on a 3S-GTE swap, you will spend half on a V6 swap

Not to mention the V6 makes the same power as the 2nd gen 3S-GTE, but NO LAG.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you have never actually driven a 3sgte powered Celica.

only my ALL-TRAC

Which I am going to go looking for this Saturday and swap out my transmission to one out of a gt as well.

if you have a ST then there would be NO POINT in installing a GT transmission. IT WONT FIT!

this is what we have been talking about. 3 of the 4 engine mounts are on the transmission and the GT and ST have different transmissions so the mounts are in different places. if you are going to get a GT trans, thats fine, just dont install it until you are ready to install a 3S-GTE or a V6, and the GT trans will NOT bolt to the 7A-FE engine

right right I understand that. I was gona get it and put it aside until I got my motor and everything is ready to be put in.

[delusionz]

for the amount of money you are going to spend on a 3S-GTE swap, you will spend half on a V6 swap

Not to mention the V6 makes the same power as the 2nd gen 3S-GTE, but NO LAG.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you have never actually driven a 3sgte powered Celica.

Well said Art.
I don't agree that you'll spend half on a v6 swap, that's just crap.
My 3s swap had virtually no lag and would kill any v6 put into any Celica.

how the f*** are we even having this debate? 3sgte > 1mz any day

[Amanda66]

Ok I was told to ask a few more questions:

Do I need to change axels? If so to what I.E. MR2, GT, or ST205?

Can I use the shift linkage from the GT or do I have to use it from the MR2?

Do I have to change my ECU? If so to what?

And something about wiring harnesses for both the engine bay and for the engine?.....

Thank You

[Xander_X]

1. OEM GT are typically fine as long as your not planning on going over 300hp. I purchased a set of GSP axels (for the GT) for mine that are almost twice as thick as the OEM. They should handle significantly more than 300hp.

2. The MR2 linkages will not work as they're a different length going from and MR car to an FF. The GT will work as long as you use the S54 transmission. If you do a complete conversion to an AWD trans, use the GT4 linkages.

3. You will have to at least use the 3SGTE ECU as well as the 2 bar MAP sensor from the engine. It is recommended that you use a stand alone engine management system though.

4. Wiring harness needs some fabrication. What kinds of fabrication, I don't know, never done one. But there are a few people on here that will do it for you and I see that there is also a premade harness being made now for this swap.

[lagos]

Well, considering the 1MZ-FE is half what a 3S-GTE costs...

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you have never actually DONE A SWAP.

All swaps cost money. Take whatever you think its going to cost, and double it because unexpected expenses always pop up and there is lots of hidden cost in these types of things. You could do either swap for the same exact amount depending on the choices you make.

[Box]

I have, just not with the Celica. All my swaps didn't involve computers and the wiring harness consisted of a ground strap to the starter. The way it should be.

Still when the main part of the swap(engine) is cheaper, that swap will be cheaper.

This post has been edited by Box: Sep 21, 2012 - 12:48 PM

[Amanda66]

1. OEM GT are typically fine as long as your not planning on going over 300hp. I purchased a set of GSP axels (for the GT) for mine that are almost twice as thick as the OEM. They should handle significantly more than 300hp.

2. The MR2 linkages will not work as they're a different length going from and MR car to an FF. The GT will work as long as you use the S54 transmission. If you do a complete conversion to an AWD trans, use the GT4 linkages.

3. You will have to at least use the 3SGTE ECU as well as the 2 bar MAP sensor from the engine. It is recommended that you use a stand alone engine management system though.

4. Wiring harness needs some fabrication. What kinds of fabrication, I don't know, never done one. But there are a few people on here that will do it for you and I see that there is also a premade harness being made now for this swap.

You are freking AMAZING!

I have, just not with the Celica. All my swaps didn't involve computers and the wiring harness consisted of a ground strap to the starter. The way it should be.

Still when the main part of the swap(engine) is cheaper, that swap will be cheaper.

I don't think so I found a full 3SGTE out of an MR2 already. Everything is good on it for $700.00!!!

[Smaay]

how the f*** are we even having this debate? 3sgte > 1mz any day

how do you figure. back that up will ya?


i wouldnt trust that 3S-GTE. and like said before. if its from an MR2 you need to buy a bunch of extra parts.. the alternator is different. the mounts are different. you might need a power steering pump. plus at that price its probably a 2nd gen and we have mentioned what that requires.

[Box]

$700 for a 3S-GTE, just doesn't sound right. Also why the hell bother with the 2nd gen? More work and less power. If going 3S-GTE get the 3rd gen and call it a day.

[Amanda66]

$700 for a 3S-GTE, just doesn't sound right. Also why the hell bother with the 2nd gen? More work and less power. If going 3S-GTE get the 3rd gen and call it a day.

I have an ex that owns a salvage yard and it is a 3rd gen motor.

how the f*** are we even having this debate? 3sgte > 1mz any day

how do you figure. back that up will ya?


i wouldnt trust that 3S-GTE. and like said before. if its from an MR2 you need to buy a bunch of extra parts.. the alternator is different. the mounts are different. you might need a power steering pump. plus at that price its probably a 2nd gen and we have mentioned what that requires.

for me getting a new alternator doesn't bother me I need a new one anyways. I also need a new power steering pump because mine leaks.

$700 for a 3S-GTE, just doesn't sound right. Also why the hell bother with the 2nd gen? More work and less power. If going 3S-GTE get the 3rd gen and call it a day.

Plus it's got a super charger on it...so I figure I could probably sell that...so either way I can still make money off of a $700.00 motor.

[Box]

Supercharger? The only MR2 that had a supercharger was the W10, and that was with the 4A-GZE. That and all USDM MR2 W20's had 2nd gen 3S-GTE engines. Something isn't adding up here.

This post has been edited by Box: Sep 21, 2012 - 2:30 PM

[lagos]

Still when the main part of the swap(engine) is cheaper, that swap will be cheaper.

You're missing the hidden costs. Doesn't the v6 swap require a fair bit of wiring harness work to work in our cars? Thats another 500 Dr Tweak dollars that you can add to the cost of the motor.

[Amanda66]

Supercharger? The only MR2 that had a supercharger was the W10, and that was with the 4A-GZE. That and all USDM MR2 W20's had 2nd gen 3S-GTE engines. Something isn't adding up here.

Maybe someone else put a super charger on it. I duno. I'm going to go look at the motor. I'll take some pictures of it and post it on here...So you guys can have a field day letting me know the f*** it is.

[lagos]

Plus it's got a super charger on it...so I figure I could probably sell that...so either way I can still make money off of a $700.00 motor.

Amanda, you're a little confused here... you're not looking at the right engine or it doesn't have the supercharger you think it has.

Listen to what we are trying to tell you. Don't buy an mr2 engine. Yeah, sure its kind of the same thing.... But there are a lot of little things that are TOTALLY DIFFERENT, that will make your car very difficult to swap. Trust me on this. Its not just about getting a new alternator. The wiring harness plugs are completely different and all need to be fully rewired, coolant neck is different, you can't use the intercooler, alternator, power steering, etc..etc..etc... are all different.

Get the nicest st205 motor you can afford. It will make the different between a finished swap, and one that is sitting in your garage for the past two years. Trust me, I have personally seen too many people jump into a swap only for it to never get finished.

[Box]

Still when the main part of the swap(engine) is cheaper, that swap will be cheaper.

You're missing the hidden costs. Doesn't the v6 swap require a fair bit of wiring harness work to work in our cars? Thats another 500 Dr Tweak dollars that you can add to the cost of the motor.

I have an in house ASE Toyota Master Technician, so no not really. Besides have to do harness work with the 3S-GTE as well. Even if you pay to have it done I don't think it was that much, obviously Smaay or Kurt could confirm the exact cost.

This post has been edited by Box: Sep 21, 2012 - 2:58 PM

[Xander_X]

Like Box said, the only MR2 with a Supercharger was the 1984 - 1989 First gen IF it had the 4A-GZE motor. The 3S-GTE is turbo charged. There was no supercharger made for that engine. Also, there were no 3rd gen 3S-GTE engines sold in the US. 93 was the last year for the US Celica having a 3SGTE and 95 for the MR2 (that's because they stopped importing the MR2 to the US after 95). Bot vehicles had a 2nd gen in them.

I have heard of people putting the 4A-GZE into a Celica, but besides having it for novelty reasons, I wouldn't recommend it. It is not as reliable as many of your other choices both because the engine itself is that way and because of it's age. It doesn't have much more power than a 5S-FE, and it is hard to find parts for. The only benefit would be that it will bolt up to your ST transmission.

Also, because of the age, 9 out of 10 of a 3S-GTE you find in a junk yard in the US most likely has VERY high mileage and has been ridden harder than my best friends sister (that's funny if you knew her).

[Box]

Also, because of the age, 9 out of 10 of a 3S-GTE you find in a junk yard in the US most likely has VERY high mileage and has been ridden harder than my best friends sister (that's funny if you knew her).

Hmm... that means either she's a whore, or it's ironic and she's abstinent.

[Xander_X]

Also, because of the age, 9 out of 10 of a 3S-GTE you find in a junk yard in the US most likely has VERY high mileage and has been ridden harder than my best friends sister (that's funny if you knew her).

Hmm... that means either she's a whore, or it's ironic and she's abstinent.

Whore ... like so big that if I explained, you would probably think I was making it up.

This post has been edited by Xander_X: Sep 21, 2012 - 4:59 PM

[Smaay]

Still when the main part of the swap(engine) is cheaper, that swap will be cheaper.

You're missing the hidden costs. Doesn't the v6 swap require a fair bit of wiring harness work to work in our cars? Thats another 500 Dr Tweak dollars that you can add to the cost of the motor.

the MR2 guy does either for 400. you still need to do some wiring when installing a 3rd gen 3S

[lagos]

Still when the main part of the swap(engine) is cheaper, that swap will be cheaper.

You're missing the hidden costs. Doesn't the v6 swap require a fair bit of wiring harness work to work in our cars? Thats another 500 Dr Tweak dollars that you can add to the cost of the motor.

the MR2 guy does either for 400. you still need to do some wiring when installing a 3rd gen 3S

Thats Dr Tweaks rate as well. Plus shipping both ways that you pay. Last time I shipped my harness somewhere it was about $40 each way.

For the 3rd gen, you just need to wire up the fuel pump and intercooler circuits. Its pretty simple and can be done as a DIY thing.

[Soulend]

Hey Amanda,

so they have covered most of it, but with a GT Trans (an S54) you will need all of the GT engine mounts and brackets. that means the three trans mounts (left top, front, and rear.) and then you will need to modify the car body to allow the usage of a GT right side mount. people have gone the route of drilling the frame and putting in two massive heavy duty bolts through, and I have also seen someone cut that section of body and weld in an actual GT mounting section.

the ST205 engine is the best overall for the swap as stated, and has more power than a 2nd gen. the wiring can be an issue, but people will make the harness plug and play so its super easy to install. besides all the small amount of other GT parts you will need for the swap that about covers it...

again, this covers a lot of info, keep looking at it though, people will suggest stuff that actually turns out to be better and I go back and edit it.

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=83732

Kevin

[block]

St185 is a pig of a car and isnt fast at all. I felt like i was driving a slightly quicker GT. SW20 is much quicker because of its light weight. I had one and enjoyed every second of it. I drove a members 3rd gen 3sgte swapped 6th gen and that thing was pretty quick.

Id recommend a st205 swap if possible. If you have the time and money, wait for the right swap. Otherwise youre going to find things here and there and it adds up fast! Plus, its better to replace parts now when the 3sgte motor is out (gaskets, water pump, belts, plugs, etc, etc). Take your time, dont rush. You want a clean reliable running car! Good luck!

[Amanda66]

Well needless to say it's a 4agze and I don't want that...

[Box]

Well needless to say it's a 4agze and I don't want that...

Would match up to your ST transmission.

[Amanda66]

Well needless to say it's a 4agze and I don't want that...

Would match up to your ST transmission.

Eh at the moment I'm kinda bewildered with my car...I'm just gona drive it 'till that 7afe with that weird noise blows up lol I'll buy another car...park her and buy one freaking million dollar part at a time.... -_-

[Amanda66]

Hey Amanda,

so they have covered most of it, but with a GT Trans (an S54) you will need all of the GT engine mounts and brackets. that means the three trans mounts (left top, front, and rear.) and then you will need to modify the car body to allow the usage of a GT right side mount. people have gone the route of drilling the frame and putting in two massive heavy duty bolts through, and I have also seen someone cut that section of body and weld in an actual GT mounting section.

the ST205 engine is the best overall for the swap as stated, and has more power than a 2nd gen. the wiring can be an issue, but people will make the harness plug and play so its super easy to install. besides all the small amount of other GT parts you will need for the swap that about covers it...

again, this covers a lot of info, keep looking at it though, people will suggest stuff that actually turns out to be better and I go back and edit it.

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=83732

Kevin

Cool thanks Kevin. How's your car? I still have those lights for you...I have yet to take the box out of my car...lol well text me. See you maybe Saturday. Lots of updates about my car hehe