3SFTE project Options

[digs]

Hi guys, don't post on here really as post on a UK celica forum.... but thought I would share what I have done to my SSI.

Following the various 5sfte posts and guidance, I have now turbo'd my 3sfe engine, some pics of the engine bay (its had a little more done since this one - including changing boost gauge t-off point to the map sensor line) and other bits at end of post.

Have installed;

3sge injectors
ct26 turbo
emanage blue (getting tuned in a couple of weeks)
ST185 manifold
ST185 map sensor
2.25" intercooler pipes and intercooler
Apexi BOV
ST185 pan
boost and oil gauges
2.5" custom ss exhaust

Been a fun and frustrating build, the turbo would not clear the coolant hard lines on the rev 3 3sfe, so I had to source a spacer for between the manifold and turbo. Changing the oil pan is fun too! Didn't need to relocate oil filter, so that was a bit easier. Coolant lines off the throttle body so again pretty easy.

Intercooler piping was interesting, right side through air pox route, left side was a bit of a squueze! But did not need ot remove a/c or anything else.

Not driven it on boost yet, but has been driven for several hours off boost, and doesn't miss a beat. Injector size has gone from 215cc (rev 3 3sfe stock I believe) to 295 (3sge stock), running on stock fuel pump, so some scope to improve there.

First map though is just a safe one to ensure no det, etc. Plans next will be;

wideband sensor and gauge (hooked into emanate)
prob bigger injectors and fuel pump
sort out second output for boost gauge from throttle bottle to leave map sensor feed unmolested
Wilwood 4 pot brakes

looking forward to running boost!






This post has been edited by digs: May 20, 2013 - 1:56 PM

[Smaay]

i ran my 5S-FTE setup without the water lines. you can clean up the engine bay by removing them. They are really not needed. You probably dont even need the Emanage with the MR2 MAP sensor and the larger injectors. just keep an eye on that Wideband sensor

[digs]

i ran my 5S-FTE setup without the water lines. you can clean up the engine bay by removing them. They are really not needed. You probably dont even need the Emanage with the MR2 MAP sensor and the larger injectors. just keep an eye on that Wideband sensor

Hi, thanks, I did wander about the coolant lines, as I don't like the way they are in the engine bay at the moment, if they are not needed I won't bother!

Everything I read said engine management would be critical, however I have the emanage anyway now, with a plug and play harness for the 3sfe, so will tune with it anyway, be interesting to see the map the tuning place comes up with, if it has very minimal adjustments....

Thanks

This post has been edited by digs: May 20, 2013 - 12:30 PM

[digs]

How safe then is it to drive on boost as set up? Not tested the turbo really yet, was hesitant until I got a wideband and it mapped?

Cheers

[Smaay]

i would also suggest you change that water hose right next to the turbo. Turbos get VERY hot. find a hose that has a bend in it.

[digs]

i would also suggest you change that water hose right next to the turbo. Turbos get VERY hot. find a hose that has a bend in it.

Thanks, will have a look and see, do have a gt4 hose actually so that may work to bend away from it good spot, cheers!


EDIT: just popped out and spun it about 45', now clears the turbo by an inch or so, will still trying the other one but already better, thanks

This post has been edited by digs: May 20, 2013 - 1:04 PM

[Syaoran]

My recommendation would be to get at least 440cc injectors, like the ones from a lotus Exige. (They fit perfectly)

The water lines for the turbo are not needed but help in terms of durability, i.e. you wont need a turbo timer or anything like that.

[digs]

I do think I will need bigger injectors, so useful extra source (the other ones that get mentioned are the rx7 ones?) so will keep on eye out

[Syaoran]

I do think I will need bigger injectors, so useful extra source (the other ones that get mentioned are the rx7 ones?) so will keep on eye out

Yeah they fit with a little modification, but the thing is that they can be had in low or high impedance form and sometimes sellers don't give you the right info. if that were the case you'd need to solder in resistors. Lotus injectors are for the 2zz supercharged and they are high impedance and have a lot better spray pattern than rx7s.

[Smaay]

all 2ZZ injectors are High Impedance. but they are not that big. the RX7 injectors fit perfectly in my 5S-FE and the plug was the same. the 2ZZ is a different style plug so you will need pigtails. no need to re-invent the wheel. stick with what works

i suggest NA Supra MKIII http://www.lextreme.com/7mge.html

This post has been edited by Smaay: May 21, 2013 - 8:21 AM

[Syaoran]

all 2ZZ injectors are High Impedance. but they are not that big. the RX7 injectors fit perfectly in my 5S-FE and the plug was the same. the 2ZZ is a different style plug so you will need pigtails. no need to re-invent the wheel. stick with what works

i suggest NA Supra MKIII injectors or lexus 1UZ injectors.

The RX-7 Turbo-II are NOT the same plugs. The Lotus Exige with the 2zz supercharged comes with 440cc injectors and the plugs are the same as the 1zz and 2zz, which are the same as the 5S-FE.

[Syaoran]

Exige S:

The RX-7 high impedance 550cc injectors that I bought:

[digs]

Thanks guys , really appreciate your input

[Smaay]

all 2ZZ injectors are High Impedance. but they are not that big. the RX7 injectors fit perfectly in my 5S-FE and the plug was the same. the 2ZZ is a different style plug so you will need pigtails. no need to re-invent the wheel. stick with what works

i suggest NA Supra MKIII injectors or lexus 1UZ injectors.

The RX-7 Turbo-II are NOT the same plugs. The Lotus Exige with the 2zz supercharged comes with 440cc injectors and the plugs are the same as the 1zz and 2zz, which are the same as the 5S-FE.

im not talking about the turbo RX7 and 1ZZ and 2ZZ injectors are NOT NOT NOT the same plug as the 5S-FE. ill say it again NOT!

[95CelicaST]

all 2ZZ injectors are High Impedance. but they are not that big. the RX7 injectors fit perfectly in my 5S-FE and the plug was the same. the 2ZZ is a different style plug so you will need pigtails. no need to re-invent the wheel. stick with what works

i suggest NA Supra MKIII injectors or lexus 1UZ injectors.

The RX-7 Turbo-II are NOT the same plugs. The Lotus Exige with the 2zz supercharged comes with 440cc injectors and the plugs are the same as the 1zz and 2zz, which are the same as the 5S-FE.

im not talking about the turbo RX7 and 1ZZ and 2ZZ injectors are NOT NOT NOT the same plug as the 5S-FE. ill say it again NOT!

Would you say that 1ZZ and 2ZZ injectors are the same plug as the 5SFE? Or no?

[digs]

i suggest NA Supra MKIII http://www.lextreme.com/7mge.html

Interesting read btw. I am using 3sge injectors and they should flow 295cc, def less than the supra injectors at 315.

[Syaoran]

all 2ZZ injectors are High Impedance. but they are not that big. the RX7 injectors fit perfectly in my 5S-FE and the plug was the same. the 2ZZ is a different style plug so you will need pigtails. no need to re-invent the wheel. stick with what works

i suggest NA Supra MKIII injectors or lexus 1UZ injectors.

The RX-7 Turbo-II are NOT the same plugs. The Lotus Exige with the 2zz supercharged comes with 440cc injectors and the plugs are the same as the 1zz and 2zz, which are the same as the 5S-FE.

im not talking about the turbo RX7 and 1ZZ and 2ZZ injectors are NOT NOT NOT the same plug as the 5S-FE. ill say it again NOT!

I stand corrected, I was confusing the plugs with the injector dimensions. Plugs are not the same.

I had purchased a set of injectors with the same dimensions as the 1zz and have the same plugs as the 5SFE, but they are not from a 1zz, they are from a Miata 1.8L.

eBay link

[digs]

Just an update, i have changed my PCV system with the side port going to the air filter pre boost via an olil catch can, and the top port having a one way valve added to make sure no boost finding it's way in.

Drilled a new port in the throttle body to allow the boost gauge and (when refitted) the BOV line.

Ordered 460cc rx7 injectors, ordering a 255 fuel pump and adjustable fuel pressure.

Got my wideband now fitted and registering.

Next step is to do some street tuning to get it drivable off boost/low boost, checking the wideband and boost gauge. So at least I can use it when i need to. Then will get the uprated fuel system fitted and dyno tuned, see what it can do!

Quick question - you guys have issue with positive pressure in brake booster hose forcing up the brake?

[Smaay]

there is a check valve in the brake booster. dont worry about that

[digs]

there is a check valve in the brake booster. dont worry about that

Ah, brilliant, thanks for that

[Syaoran]

Just an update, i have changed my PCV system with the side port going to the air filter pre boost via an olil catch can, and the top port having a one way valve added to make sure no boost finding it's way in.

Drilled a new port in the throttle body to allow the boost gauge and (when refitted) the BOV line.

Ordered 460cc rx7 injectors, ordering a 255 fuel pump and adjustable fuel pressure.

Got my wideband now fitted and registering.

Next step is to do some street tuning to get it drivable off boost/low boost, checking the wideband and boost gauge. So at least I can use it when i need to. Then will get the uprated fuel system fitted and dyno tuned, see what it can do!

Quick question - you guys have issue with positive pressure in brake booster hose forcing up the brake?

Sounds like a plan.

The PCV valve is already a one-way valve. It only works under vacuum. If the IM sees positive pressure it doesn't operate, and handles the job over to the side port on the valve cover. I was gonna suggest that you use a vacuum manifold but seems like you got it all planned out.

[digs]

Good to hear, makes that a bit easier

Thanks, looking forward to testing it out. Just making a detonation listening device to clamp to engine so can record any det when testing.

[digs]

460cc injectors have arrived - had a thought though, will the emanage blue be able to tune this down ? Only deal with injectors 50% bigger ? - anyone with any experience on this ?

Also have a 255 fuel pump and fuel pump regulator come through so stronger on fuel supply.

[Syaoran]

460cc injectors have arrived - had a thought though, will the emanage blue be able to tune this down ? Only deal with injectors 50% bigger ? - anyone with any experience on this ?

Also have a 255 fuel pump and fuel pump regulator come through so stronger on fuel supply.

The e-manage Blue is not going to be enough to turbo a 3S-FE. It's not meant to be used by itself as a turbocharged application ECU. It's more for NA cars with a fue VE increasing mods.

You should've gotten 315cc injectors instead of 460cc if you were gonna use the e-manage to tune, IMO.

[digs]

The e-manage Blue is not going to be enough to turbo a 3S-FE. It's not meant to be used by itself as a turbocharged application ECU. It's more for NA cars with a fue VE increasing mods.

You should've gotten 315cc injectors instead of 460cc if you were gonna use the e-manage to tune, IMO.

thanks

I have 3sge injectors, 295cc, as well, and everything is changeable at the moment Can pick up 315s as well. And still have the 460s as an option. So can try a few to see how things work.

emanage blue will need to do for now, however what do you recommend instead ? ultimate ? or another....

[Syaoran]

I recommend not using it and waiting to get something better. The only thing better is a standalone ECU of your choice.

[digs]

Thought I would swing by and update, engine still running fine, passed uk emissions and mot with no advisories or fails. Have an oil leak from oil feed to turbo, only minor, just need to get at it to seal it up.

Need to sort out tuning still, as wot is 10 or lower afr, so overfuelling, but not often in high boost. Have a boost leak somewhere, but boosts happily 1-5 and pulls along nicely, and goes 8-10 on wot with no det as yet, but to be fair not often in that, and then only for brief period. Off wide open fuelling looks ok, stoic until start hitting boost then drops to 12s in low boost, not wot.

When boost does kick in though, shifts somewhat

tuning is proving tircky though as open loop seems to dump fuel like crazy, so will need I guess to use throttle position to pull fuel at 80-100%, though this feels wrong!

But assuming over fuelling is happily destroying the sports cat....

Drives almost stock off boost which is nice, though exhaust is VERY loud, only the back box and cat on it.

If this was tuned properly it could go pretty high I reckon...but happy to take it slowly and tinker

[H8TRAIN]

Very interesting, digs. I'm glad you posted this here. Without alot of first hand experience, I consider the 3sfe an underrated engine. I think it's a good engine for the type of thing you have here. That is to say an iterative, homemade turbo system. Or as it is often reffered to: "Slap A Turbo On It".

[digs]

Very interesting, digs. I'm glad you posted this here. Without alot of first hand experience, I consider the 3sfe an underrated engine. I think it's a good engine for the type of thing you have here. That is to say an iterative, homemade turbo system. Or as it is often reffered to: "Slap A Turbo On It".

thanks interesting the differences between the 5sfe and 3sfe actually, pretty much the same bhp basic (135 5sfe I believe vs 138 3sfe) so turbo power should be similar ? its not the best engine so sod it and give it a go To be fair not sure why the 2.2 has similar bhp to the 2 litre 3sfe ? Would have thought the 5sfe should have more.Certainly my 3sfe is later model than the earlier 3sfes, direct ignition and a different ecu.

Just about to fit wilwood 4 pot fronts and gt4 rears, to add some braking goodness.

edit: some engine stats, 5sfe slightly less bhp but more torque

3S-FE
1998cc. 9.5:1 compression ratio.
136 bhp (138PS) @ 6000 rpm
137 lbft @ 4400 rpm.

5S-FE 93-01
compr.: 9.5:1 displ.: 2162cc
135 hp (101 kW)@5400 rpm
145 ft·lbf (196 Nm)@4400 rpm

This post has been edited by digs: Dec 9, 2013 - 4:37 PM

[Syaoran]

5S-FE was built for torque, not horsepower. The 3S-FE most likely has the same power due to it being able to rev a little higher with no issues. Perhaps the cams are different in both the 5S and 3S, or there's a difference in the intake manifold, or some minor detail.

As you see, it does have similar power, but don't just look at the power, look at the RPM it makes that power. The 5SFE makes its peak at 5400RPM while the 3SFE makes it at 6000RPM which means it likes revving higher than the 5S, which is better for turbocharged applications, in terms of power.

However the 5S-FE will spool the same turbo faster and make more torque.

I've always wanted to compare the 5S head to a 3S head, as well as the 3S block from an FE engine to a GE engine.... I'm willing to bet you can slap a GE head easier on your block than we 5S-FE guys can on ours. I almost bought a 3S-FE back when I bought my new 5S-FE. In retrospect I probably should've.

[H8TRAIN]

5S-FE was built for torque, not horsepower. The 3S-FE most likely has the same power due to it being able to rev a little higher with no issues. Perhaps the cams are different in both the 5S and 3S, or there's a difference in the intake manifold, or some minor detail.

As you see, it does have similar power, but don't just look at the power, look at the RPM it makes that power. The 5SFE makes its peak at 5400RPM while the 3SFE makes it at 6000RPM which means it likes revving higher than the 5S, which is better for turbocharged applications, in terms of power.

However the 5S-FE will spool the same turbo faster and make more torque.

I've always wanted to compare the 5S head to a 3S head, as well as the 3S block from an FE engine to a GE engine.... I'm willing to bet you can slap a GE head easier on your block than we 5S-FE guys can on ours. I almost bought a 3S-FE back when I bought my new 5S-FE. In retrospect I probably should've.

I'm looking for a motor now and the 3sfe doesn't look too bad compared to the 5sfe. Given the choice of a square 2 liter and an otherwise identical 2.2 stroker, I would lean towards the 2.0. Add the price difference into the equation and the 3sfe is hard to ignore.

I'd say that both the 3sfe and 5sfe were built for torque and not horsepower. The extra stroke (and bore too) of the 5sfe does not seem to be complemented with changes that would allow it to make more power. The head, cams, manifolds and all appear to be almost identical the smaller 3sfe. The extra displacement can get the intake and exhaust ports flowing at an earlier rpm leading to more torque at low rpm, and ultimately ingest more air per cycle thus making more peak torque. At higher engine speeds, the 2.0 sized manifolds and cams constrain the 5sfe, and it doesn't make much more (if any) power than the 3sfe.

To me, it appears that the a 5sfe is a 3sfe that is massaged to be more appropriate for automatic transmissions and heavier cars. And maybe fatter people. The better torque at low speeds equals lower rpm take off and thus less noise from both the engine and transmission.

[delusionz]

^--- Yup.

[Syaoran]

5S-FE was built for torque, not horsepower. The 3S-FE most likely has the same power due to it being able to rev a little higher with no issues. Perhaps the cams are different in both the 5S and 3S, or there's a difference in the intake manifold, or some minor detail.

As you see, it does have similar power, but don't just look at the power, look at the RPM it makes that power. The 5SFE makes its peak at 5400RPM while the 3SFE makes it at 6000RPM which means it likes revving higher than the 5S, which is better for turbocharged applications, in terms of power.

However the 5S-FE will spool the same turbo faster and make more torque.

I've always wanted to compare the 5S head to a 3S head, as well as the 3S block from an FE engine to a GE engine.... I'm willing to bet you can slap a GE head easier on your block than we 5S-FE guys can on ours. I almost bought a 3S-FE back when I bought my new 5S-FE. In retrospect I probably should've.

I'm looking for a motor now and the 3sfe doesn't look too bad compared to the 5sfe. Given the choice of a square 2 liter and an otherwise identical 2.2 stroker, I would lean towards the 2.0. Add the price difference into the equation and the 3sfe is hard to ignore.

I'd say that both the 3sfe and 5sfe were built for torque and not horsepower. The extra stroke (and bore too) of the 5sfe does not seem to be complemented with changes that would allow it to make more power. The head, cams, manifolds and all appear to be almost identical the smaller 3sfe. The extra displacement can get the intake and exhaust ports flowing at an earlier rpm leading to more torque at low rpm, and ultimately ingest more air per cycle thus making more peak torque. At higher engine speeds, the 2.0 sized manifolds and cams constrain the 5sfe, and it doesn't make much more (if any) power than the 3sfe.

To me, it appears that the a 5sfe is a 3sfe that is massaged to be more appropriate for automatic transmissions and heavier cars. And maybe fatter people. The better torque at low speeds equals lower rpm take off and thus less noise from both the engine and transmission.

100% agree, especially when I saw a 3S-FE and 5S-FE side by side at the engine importer I purchased my 5S-FE. The engines are IDENTICAL on the outside.

[delusionz]

i dont think a 3sg head on a 3sf block would make a 3sge. i think it would make a weak motor that ran like ****

[digs]

As you see, it does have similar power, but don't just look at the power, look at the RPM it makes that power. The 5SFE makes its peak at 5400RPM while the 3SFE makes it at 6000RPM which means it likes revving higher than the 5S, which is better for turbocharged applications, in terms of power.

However the 5S-FE will spool the same turbo faster and make more torque.

having no experience of the 5sfe, I can say (any boost leaks not withstanding which may be clouding my view) my 3sfte does suffer from turbolag more than I expected, however when in higher revs becomes a very fun car to drive, 5.5 to 6k and it feels quite alive, boost is kicking in big time, etc.

However....I am thinking the 5sfte may be more fun if boost is coming in lower and easier. Though it does mean I can easily drive my 3sfte off boost, and still actually enjoy it. Just have to "work" for boost with it (though 2 or 3psi going up hills kicks in quickly and makes accelerating up them easier!)

[Syaoran]

It all depends on the turbo you're using.

3S-FE will surely have more lag, but don't expect the extra .2L to knock off a full 1000RPM of spool up on the same turbo. I think the 3S-FE is also a bit lower compression (9.3:1) than the 5S-FE (9.5:1) so there's a little more spoolup difference there. However, the lower compression allows you to turn up the boost a little bit higher than the 5S-FE will on the same octane fuel and same turbo.

You should look into putting on a GE head and pistons in in the near future... it's a lot easier to do given you've already got the 3S block. A 2nd gen head should bolt right up.

If you feel your turbo is too laggy it probably means it's too big. In my case, my turbo comes alive when I step on it at 2800-3000RPM, and the car pulls up until 5800 and then it falls flat on its face.

[H8TRAIN]

It all depends on the turbo you're using.

3S-FE will surely have more lag, but don't expect the extra .2L to knock off a full 1000RPM of spool up on the same turbo. I think the 3S-FE is also a bit lower compression (9.3:1) than the 5S-FE (9.5:1) so there's a little more spoolup difference there. However, the lower compression allows you to turn up the boost a little bit higher than the 5S-FE will on the same octane fuel and same turbo.

I think the compression ratio for the newer 3sfes may be 9.8. I've been trying to search for info about it and it's limited. From what I can tell, there's a major revision of the 3sfe that occurs with the introduction of the 5sfe. The "pre-5sfe" version of the 3sfe may have had lower compression.

I agree with Syaoran about the turbo lag. The 5sfe would surely spool the same turbo all things equal faster, but there are so many factors involved with your turbo response that if you wish to improve it, then there is surely several ways to do so.

Things that can lower threshold and lag:

Tuning: Once the full throttle on-boost tuning is sorted, the low-load regions can be fine tuned. Resulting in better driveability and mileage and better turbo response.

Wastegate performance: Tired wastegate actuators can make sluggish response. A healthy working wastegate can be augmented with a computer boost controller. This can reduce lag.

Exhaust after turbine: This will greatly effect the response of the turbine. The turbine would achieve maximum response and efficiency with the downpipe and all exhaust removed completely. A restrictive enough exhaust will actually reduce the amount of boost your turbo can make in total, with a corresponding hit to response!

Turbo center section: The turbocharger's bearing. This should be in good condition before judging the response of the turbo. Otherwise it's like judging a restaurant by tasting a week-old doggybag from the fridge.

Charge piping and intercooler: Generally, yes the compressor will fill up any arrangement of pipes, couplers, bends and cooler core. But these volumes can be optimized for the sake of turbo response.

Usually when race teams are limited to certain amounts of peak power with a turbo, the engine development turns towards turbo response at various rpms to get better performance.

[digs]

Thanks for the info...

Tuning: Once the full throttle on-boost tuning is sorted, the low-load regions can be fine tuned. Resulting in better driveability and mileage and better turbo response.


Tuning is ultra safe at mo, fuelling no issue (over if not less) and ignition pulled for safety, so there are areas of moving back there.

Exhaust after turbine: This will greatly effect the response of the turbine. The turbine would achieve maximum response and efficiency with the downpipe and all exhaust removed completely. A restrictive enough exhaust will actually reduce the amount of boost your turbo can make in total, with a corresponding hit to response!

Have 2.5" exhaust with sports cat, so don't think it would be that....

Turbo center section: The turbocharger's bearing. This should be in good condition before judging the response of the turbo. Otherwise it's like judging a restaurant by tasting a week-old doggybag from the fridge.


THIS^^ Second hand ct26 thrown on, doesn't smoke but providence unknown.... may well be crappy and that's the reason, thinking of reconing or going for a replica to see.


Charge piping and intercooler: Generally, yes the compressor will fill up any arrangement of pipes, couplers, bends and cooler core. But these volumes can be optimized for the sake of turbo response

Clocking the turbo would give me a better route

[digs]

an update...just grabbed a ST205 shell with engine, turbo, loom and ecu