Remanufactured Head (ebay), Need you all experts advise Options

[msk59]

In the near future, I plan on redoing the valves etc on the head and came across some ebay sites that sells remanufactured heads. all work done with cams etc for under $300. Engine is 7A-FE and my car is 1996 Celica ST (AT-200) with manual transmission.

What is your experience with these heads and what advise you can give me that can help me decide.

Thank You
MSK

This post has been edited by msk59: Jun 13, 2014 - 8:09 AM

[Langing]

In the near future, I plan on redoing the valves etc on the head and came across some ebay sites that sells remanufactured heads. all work done with cams etc for under $300. Engine is 7A-FE and my car is 1996 Celica ST (AT-200) with manual transmission.

What is your experience with these heads and what advise you can give me that can help me decide.

Thank You
MSK

In the future I might do the same thing. That's very good news for me. . . 94 ST with 7A-FE engine with 5-speed manual transmission that has already churned out more than 300,000 miles. Can you tell me who is selling the inexpensive remanufactured heads for it?

[VavAlephVav]

you can find a used head with maybe 150k on it at a salvage yard for $135, then take it to the machine shop for cleaning, resurfacing, valve work.
the engine shop I talked to said for $45 they clean and test it for cracks and give you an estimate for whatever else it needs.

[Smaay]

with cams? yeah i highly doubt that. I dont know where they can make any money at that price.

[msk59]

here is the link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOYOTA-1-8-DOHC-7A...deb&vxp=mtr

I was surprised too because I was thinking it should be around $400 or more

[Special_Edy]

For that price or less you could have your original head completely rebuilt.

[msk59]

I have not checked the local shops here yet so I will do the comparison. the only benefit is that you can put back the engine the same day if the head is ready to go. However, in my case I need to replace the rings as well.

I have not checked the local shops here yet so I will do the comparison. the only benefit is that you can put back the engine the same day if the head is ready to go. However, in my case I need to replace the rings as well.

[VavAlephVav]

when I searched for 'cylinder heads' on google it comes back with several sites of places selling remanufactured heads, many were right around $275 to $300.
http://www.shop.headsonly.com/TOYOTA_c27.htm

but the product description just says they've been cleaned, tested, resurfaced and "any worn parts replaced". to me that doen't necessarily mean they've replaced
every working part, just the ones that absolutely had to be replaced. which to me is the same thing you'd get if you took a head to the machine shop yourself.
as long as you find a machine shop that you can trust and does good work they will test it and give you a good evaluation on what needs to be done.
the salvage yard I called said they guarantee it against cracks, and the core charge is only $15.
now if the Celica is not your Daily Driver you could have it down for a while and take the head you've got in and do the same thing, but you'll have to wait on the machine shop, and what if they come back and tell you
the head is cracked anyway?

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Jun 15, 2014 - 7:29 PM

[Special_Edy]

when I searched for 'cylinder heads' on google it comes back with several sites of places selling remanufactured heads, many were right around $275 to $300.
http://www.shop.headsonly.com/TOYOTA_c27.htm

but the product description just says they've been cleaned, tested, resurfaced and "any worn parts replaced". to me that doen't necessarily mean they've replaced
every working part, just the ones that absolutely had to be replaced. which to me is the same thing you'd get if you took a head to the machine shop yourself.
as long as you find a machine shop that you can trust and does good work they will test it and give you a good evaluation on what needs to be done.
the salvage yard I called said they guarantee it against cracks, and the core charge is only $15.
now if the Celica is not your Daily Driver you could have it down for a while and take the head you've got in and do the same thing, but you'll have to wait on the machine shop, and what if they come back and tell you
the head is cracked anyway?

At least you get a warranty at a machine shop. If the head was cracked it would be obvious since the engine is running atm. Way more of a crap shoot buying something that didnt come off of a verifiably running engine.

If it costs 300 to do the work, then what level of work are you getting if they sell you the head and all the work for under 300? You think they are giving you free/discounted service?

[msk59]

Special Edy: You make a very good point in terms of how much effort/work has gone into preparing that head if they are selling it for 280 or 300. Obviously, they are charging for cleanup only.

Right now, besides the oil consumption, there are no other symptoms such as running or idling rough or anything. Runs fine, pulls in each gear and when I shift, it puffs smoke. My next step is to get the compression test and the leak-down test done to clearly show me where the problem might be. I have most of the tools to pull the head or the entire engine. Not sure which route i will go. The biggest concern I have is that I don't know the tricks of the trade etc. that help do the job correct the first time. For example, I read on Toyota Nation, one guy put the head gasket backwards (since the gasket is symmetrical) and after putting all of it together, he realized it and had to redo it.

Thus far, I have done one soak treatment. I have not seen much improvement so I will do another one with MMA instead of Seafoam. This may not cure the engine completely, I know that, but at lease it will cleanup the majority of the sludge/carbon-build before the tear down.

I would need help as I am counting on you all experts out there ;-)

Thank You in advance.

[VavAlephVav]

This is the same boat I'm in. I could manage to do the head, but lack the experience to do it right the first time. I know a guy at a local shop who I trust and will do the labor for $500, when it pays 8hours so i'd rather let him do it.
But if I get another head and have it worked on first I won't have to leave it with him for several days.
The salvage yard has heads with only 125k and if it turns out to be bad I'm only out the $45 for the machine shop testing it. And maybe later I can have the other head tested and sell it for maybe $75.
I think with most reman shops they keep your old core for only $15 and rebuilt it, and that is how they manage to make money on the rebuild.
So $500 for labor, $140 for the head, maybe $150 for the machine shop, and another $150 for a Cometic head kit. This way I'm spreading out the head and work on it over the summer and ill have enough for the labor in the fall.

[VavAlephVav]

I should add that in the past I thought I was better off making a car payment, and bought a dodge neon. And I was still working on it before it was even paid off.
The head gasket busted when it was still under warranty and I took it to Chrysler, and they slapped a head gasket on it, without resurfacing the head. TWICE while it was under warranty they
Replaced the head gasket and did no work to the head. And it was forever one problem after another. The third time I took it to a shop an that retard damaged the wirelimb when he did the job and
Caused an intermittent short to the fuel pump which took us months to figure out.
Lets just say I know that when you're dealing with an aluminum head do the whole Job and don't just half-ass it.

[msk59]

Yes that is my worry too. The tricks of the trade and the 'short cuts' they used is the key. I will pull the head myself and will have a knowledgeable buddy with me who will help me. I also want to do the piston re-ring. That would be a challange laying on the ground and unbolting it from underneath.

The other option would be to pull the engine out of the car along with transmission and replace the clutch as well. It definetly involves additional work but the benefits are many as well.

[Langing]

Yes that is my worry too. The tricks of the trade and the 'short cuts' they used is the key. I will pull the head myself and will have a knowledgeable buddy with me who will help me. I also want to do the piston re-ring. That would be a challange laying on the ground and unbolting it from underneath.

The other option would be to pull the engine out of the car along with transmission and replace the clutch as well. It definetly involves additional work but the benefits are many as well.

Please excuse my long-winded reply. You don't have to read it, but I needed to sort things out for myself after reading all the comments in this thread. I AM very interested in your question because I am facing it myself.

This thread began by asking "What is your experience with these heads and what advise you can give me that can help me decide." Two links were provided to similar sources to show examples of places that sell rebuilt heads at a price-point of approximately $300.

Those sources claim to sell heads for all vehicle types, trying to keep an inventory where anyone could get immediate satisfaction when they want any particular head: engine heads in which they claim they have replaced all worn parts; heads which have been resurfaced; heads which have worn valves replaced and the valve seats all ground properly; heads which are cleaned up and tested for cracks; heads which are guaranteed for 12 months. They can sell their rebuilt heads for less than $300 because they rebuild so many thousands of heads each year from all kinds of motors (Volume) and you have to send your current head back to them when you install theirs as part of the deal (Recycling), and, they pay the return shipping! Further, they say they do not care what condition your head is in when it gets back to them, so long as all of its parts are shipped to them.

I don't know enough about overhauling an engine to even begin to offer wise counsel on this matter, however, ISTM that this approach ought to actually be better than equivalent to taking your own head down to a machine shop to get the same work done on it, or DIY. In both of these approaches a big problem is consistency, meaning quality, another is going to be cost. Whereas these big rebuilders are doing it all day long every day they are in business, and must have every resource and all the information they could ever need at their fingertips, and because of volume can buy replacement parts (much cheaper) in quantity, a local machine shop or DIY (even with a 'good buddy who really knows his stuff") are one-offers. They may have done it before, but it isn't something they do every day. Therefore you really do not know what the level of quality you are going to get. Also, you are purchasing parts in small numbers and have to pay shipping on each part.

Of course, in the DIY case, if you are the least like me, when you are finally finished you know the job is done well. However, the parts of the job that require expensive machines and thus required you to farm them out, that sounds like the weakest link since you have no control over their quality. Its like the fellow who posted that he took his head back to the dealer more than once but they never resurfaced it, so it failed early. I don't trust dealer technicians, or most anybody to whom I might take my car to have something done on it because I have seen numerous instances of things they took short cuts in doing or not doing, and so on.

Also, of course, these rebuilders may have the same kinds of problems in their processes, or may use the cheapest possible replacement parts, or any of a number of untrustworthy scenarios one could come up with. However, you have an economic system helping you make sure you get a quality product from people like this because their reputation is all they have, and if someone posts negative remarks about their head work, they would soon enough feel the pain in their profits.

All that being said, using one of the rebuilders is much like removing your head, having it overhauled by a local machine shop or by you and an expert buddy, and then replacing the rebuilt head back onto the engine. That has to mean "downtime" for your vehicle, and it it were I doing the work with whatever help I could find, that "downtime" would be considerable. For you it might be rather short. But there would be some amount of downtime. It's not the same if you purchase a rebuilt head for $300 and simply change it out, like you would a starter motor, and then you just pack up and send your old head back to them, using part of the $300. That's the case of minimal work, minimal cost!

It seems a decision has been made to savor the experience of DIY, probably for the depth of knowledge and sheer joy doing so would bring, rather than buying a rebuilt head, but was that decision based on any related experiences with remanufactured heads? I'm just asking. That decision to DIY isn't BAD because it wasn't based on reliable information, but being clear eyed about decisions you make is important because you are deciding on the expenditure of a lot of time and energy.

I cannot help but feel that this is a 'no-brainer' of a decision if ONLY concerned about cost, quality, and time. And despite my own basic instinct to want to DIM, probably for the same reasons as you have, let me make a last effort to test your resolve by pasting what one of those rebuilders said in their advert (FYI: I have no financial interest in any of these companies):


TOYOTA CELICA 7AFE

PHOTO OF 7AFE HEAD


This listing is for a rebuilt Toyota Celica 7AFE cylinder head for the years 1993-1997. For other models see our store listings. This head is completely rebuilt. It has been pressure checked for cracks and resurfaced. Guides and seats have been replaced as needed. New VITON valve stem seals have been installed. All heads are given a three angle valve job. All valves have been vacuum checked to ensure proper sealing.

A LIKE CORE HEAD IS REQUIRED IN EXCHANGE.

ABOUT US

Since 1968, Cylinder Heads International has been selling quality rebuilt cylinder heads. By serving our customers better than our competitors, CHI has grown into one of the largest cylinder head rebuilders in the nation. Our heads are installed by shops nationwide and are the choice of many engine rebuilders. Our comprehensive inventory includes heads for domestic or import models and carry a 12-month unlimited mileage guarantee.

WE MAKE IT SIMPLE

We make it easy for you. Your head will arrive in our special foam lined box. Once your new head is installed all you have to do is put your old one in the box and tape it up, then apply the included prepaid UPS sticker to the box. You may then give the box to any UPS driver you may see, or take the box to any UPS pickup point, there will be no charge to you to complete the transaction and return your old head to us.

YOUR OLD HEAD

We will accept your old cylinder head no matter what is wrong with it as long as it includes all the parts that our head came with. You will never be charged extra because your old head is damaged. Cracked head? OK! Bent valves? OK! Head taken apart? OK! (as long as you put all of the parts in the box). We have no up-front core charge. Our comprehensive inventory includes heads for domestic or import models and a 12-month unlimited mileage guarantee.

HEADSONLY, also known as Cylinder Heads International has thousands of rebuilt cylinder heads in stock. We strive to have the heads people need when they need them. Due to the fact that we sell heads Nationwide to professional installers, garages, dealerships and engine rebuilders, occasionally we may be temporarily out of stock on certain hard to find or high demand items. This is rare. In this case we will offer to rebuild your head, or a full refund, your choice.

[msk59]

Langing. I did read the entire post, a few times in fact. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

The original purpose of my post was to gain more information about the rebuilt heads and to see if anyone has any good or bad experience with these heads. that is all.

[Langing]

Langing. I did read the entire post, a few times in fact. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

The original purpose of my post was to gain more information about the rebuilt heads and to see if anyone has any good or bad experience with these heads. that is all.

Thanks for verifying my understanding, and thanks for reading “gone with the wind.”


Please understand that my intention was not to attempt to change your mind. In fact, I am jealous of the experience you are going to gain in your undertaking, and I wish you the best as you are setting out on that journey to DIY manhood.


It would still be so nice if someone who had actually incorporated one of those $300 heads in their Celica could speak to us, based on having had that experience, to things like the quality of those suppliers, etc. Your initial question piqued my interest and it still isn’t satisfied.

[msk59]

LOL. I never read 'Gone with the wind' nor did I saw the movie. that is bad, I know!



Thank You for your thoughts.

This post has been edited by msk59: Jun 17, 2014 - 7:57 AM

[VavAlephVav]

the first book I ever read was the uncut version of The Stand.

I totally agree, and rather than try and do too much diy I'd rather give my money to local people who do good work, the shop that will do the labor are people I trust and the machine shop has been building racing engines for people since the '70s.
I want people like this to stay in business so I take them my money. and I'm still coming out way less than if I took it to the dealer and got hosed.

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Jun 17, 2014 - 8:45 AM

[Langing]

the first book I ever read was the uncut version of The Stand.

I totally agree, and rather than try and do too much diy I'd rather give my money to local people who do good work, the shop that will do the labor are people I trust and the machine shop has been building racing engines for people since the '70s.
I want people like this to stay in business so I take them my money. and I'm still coming out way less than if I took it to the dealer and got hosed.

Never read The Stand, but have read other Stephen King novels. Great writer. When I think of The Stand, I hear the word "tome."

I applaud your sentiment and wholeheartedly agree with your approach. Wish I knew of a shop nearby that I could trust the way you trust yours. I also think it is important to help businesses that good stay alive and thrive.

On the other hand, looking at this question purely in dollars and cents terms, stripping away our better values and ideals, none of these shops can compete with mass produced rebuilt heads, so when someone is on a strict budget or happens to be hard up for cash and cannot afford to act 'generously' they would most likely save money by using a big remanufacturer. The truth of this seems self-evident to me.

But, that isn't all that needs to be known about them. I'd surely like to know what their quality standards are, and if I put one in my car, would it last as long as the first engine did. That's really important to me because if I put one in at $300, and it only lasted, say 50,000 miles, then the cost based decision reverts to favoring a local shop, not to mention the hassle of multiple replacements done at times that are not of your choosing.

[VavAlephVav]

Well, we have this little tire shop and the old guy that runs the place has been there for a long time, so I went down and asked him who around here I can trust.
I told him I wasn't afraid to pay a regular rate, but who is Not going to FuKK me?
And he told me who I should go and see, and I had them put a motor in an Astro van, which was like a 12 hour job where you had to drop the Subframe, and he did the labor for $650 and everything worked great.

Ive also considered changing out the whole motor as its 8 hours labor for the head and only 10 for the whole motor. There was a guy on the FB group selling a rebuilt 5sfe for $600 just a couple weeks ago.

[msk59]

Never read that one either. I used to watch too much TV ( I know that is bad) so when my then 6 years old daughter started quoting Disney characters, I decided it was time to cut the Cable 'cord'. Never been happier since. The remaining 5 local channels including public provide pleenty of news and entertainment that I never miss cable. I am especially happy that I dont have to hear or see Kardasians/honey bobo anymore. All that saving is now go into this project car (LOL).

Langing; You are in the heart (or close to it) of NASCAR country. You should have machine/engine building shops everywhere in that City. There is a lot of knowledge about engine building down south so I heard. I would recommend check with your folks at work etc., they will let you know or know of someone that does a reputable job.

In terms of buying the $300 rebuild head, some of those come with 1 year/unlimited mileage warranty. Someone told me the other day that usually they do not spend much time in valve lapping. Not sure if the local will do any better, it depends upon how busy they are.

Keeping an eye on the oil consumption right now and doing other stuff to bring it back to the state that I will be happy with.

[Langing]

Never read that one either. I used to watch too much TV ( I know that is bad) so when my then 6 years old daughter started quoting Disney characters, I decided it was time to cut the Cable 'cord'. Never been happier since. The remaining 5 local channels including public provide pleenty of news and entertainment that I never miss cable. I am especially happy that I dont have to hear or see Kardasians/honey bobo anymore. All that saving is now go into this project car (LOL).

Langing; You are in the heart (or close to it) of NASCAR country. You should have machine/engine building shops everywhere in that City. There is a lot of knowledge about engine building down south so I heard. I would recommend check with your folks at work etc., they will let you know or know of someone that does a reputable job.

In terms of buying the $300 rebuild head, some of those come with 1 year/unlimited mileage warranty. Someone told me the other day that usually they do not spend much time in valve lapping. Not sure if the local will do any better, it depends upon how busy they are.

Keeping an eye on the oil consumption right now and doing other stuff to bring it back to the state that I will be happy with.

We also cut the cable. . . about nine months ago. Still watch too much TV, but it's better cause it's actually coming from the computer, and is mostly YouTube how to, news and movies. Now any crap we watch is pretty much our own fault, except there has been a dramatic increase in the number of ads on YouTube. If ads get any worse, we will just cut out YouTube as well. What little intelligence I have is totally insulted by them. Our old provider was TimeWarner and they were so bad you can't believe, but worse because over 20% of their ads were for themselves! We were paying them a fortune to send out TimeWarner ads???

As far as me living in NASCAR country, you do have a good point. The kind of resources you are talking about probably do exist in many of the smaller towns scattered throughout NC, but especially in the mountains around Asheville where the moonshiners once thrived. Those guys created the racing industry because they had to in order to be in their line of business. Now NASCAR's HQs is in Charlotte near or at the Speedway. As I gain more experience working on my own car, perhaps I will run into some of those guys. It's something I should put some time into checking out. But long time racing stables like those of the Petty Brothers, to name one, certainly aren't looking to help idiots like me out. Many of them are now celebrities. I'll let you know if something interesting turns up. Till then, keep on aiming high!

This post has been edited by Langing: Jun 19, 2014 - 5:15 PM

[Langing]

Well, we have this little tire shop and the old guy that runs the place has been there for a long time, so I went down and asked him who around here I can trust.
I told him I wasn't afraid to pay a regular rate, but who is Not going to FuKK me?
And he told me who I should go and see, and I had them put a motor in an Astro van, which was like a 12 hour job where you had to drop the Subframe, and he did the labor for $650 and everything worked great.

Ive also considered changing out the whole motor as its 8 hours labor for the head and only 10 for the whole motor. There was a guy on the FB group selling a rebuilt 5sfe for $600 just a couple weeks ago.

Sounds like you wisely know your way around. That was a perfect place and way to introduce yourself. And the result speaks for itself. I think I should learn from your experience and try to do the same.

That 5sfe you saw, it sounds like you are thinking of putting one in your 94 GT. Would it be a lot of trouble to change out?

Also, I'm wondering if it would it be possible to put one in my manual 94 ST Coup, which still has the original 7afe? And if it was possible, what's involved in doing that? Sounds like a major job for a casual DIY guy. Would the extra power be worth the effort? I'm not looking for a race car, just a little more get up and go, and possibly a little more threatening sound?!

Finally, $600 for a rebuilt 5sfe sounds like a real deal. Or said another way, if something sounds too good to be true, it isn't. . .

But, hey, what do I know?

[Special_Edy]

I got a 5S from a 93 Camry with 163k in the junkyard for $200. Picked the camry/5s with the cleanest looking oil on the dipstick. When I pulled the pan off later and checked the bearings they still had crosshatches on them from being rebuilt.
It only takes a long day to swap the motor yourself after you've done it once.

[Langing]

I got a 5S from a 93 Camry with 163k in the junkyard for $200. Picked the camry/5s with the cleanest looking oil on the dipstick. When I pulled the pan off later and checked the bearings they still had crosshatches on them from being rebuilt.
It only takes a long day to swap the motor yourself after you've done it once.

To me. . . that's a mouthful. . . "after you've done it once". . . makes all the difference in the world!

But, that is only ME, I am sure.

Then that brings me back to my question. Can I put a 5S into my AT200 frame?

Rather, after I've done it once, can I put a 5S into my AT200 frame?

[Special_Edy]

Yeah you just need more parts. Some of the electronics, the wiring harness, the transmission, axles. There is probably more, you basically need a running parts car. You could swap a 3SGTE for the same amount of trouble

[Langing]

Yeah you just need more parts. Some of the electronics, the wiring harness, the transmission, axles. There is probably more, you basically need a running parts car. You could swap a 3SGTE for the same amount of trouble

Let me ask in a different way.

In your opinion, if you had my car (94 Celica ST Manual 1.8 L), and wanted to somewhat upgrade its engine (has original 7A-FE with 300k miles), what would you do?

For me, just replacing it with another (rebuilt) 7A-FE isn't out of the question. I was just thinking that if I was going to that much trouble (what to me seems like a lot of trouble), what might be possible with a little more effort.

And your last comment led me to wonder if I could obtain a "wiring harness" by going to a junkyard? Like supposing I was going to pick out an engine at some junkyard, should I just pick out the wiring harness while I was taking out the engine? And would that wiring harness and engine be easy to integrate back into my car?

Yeah, these are questions that are too simple, meaning hard to get experienced people to stop and answer, but I remind you that I am a baby cakes beginner at all of this kind of work, so each time you answer them you are speeding the growth of my naive but expanding knowledge base.

[Special_Edy]

The 5sfe isnt worth the trouble.
Maybe a 4age If you wanted something spicier which would utilize the existing drivetrain, you need a custom harness and the ecu.
A 3sge, 3sgte or 1mz would require a GT drivetrain. The 3s engines are the only ones that you could use a factory harness on, they would bolt into a GT. 1mz is about as cheap as a 5sfe or 7a but then you need a lot of custom parts besides the GT drivetrain, exhaust, motor mount, clutch and wiring harness to name a few.

Boosting a 7a is always an option too. I was trying to figure out if 4age heads or camshafts would swap into a 7a but I lacked the interest to finish the hardcore research.

[Syaoran]

The 5sfe isnt worth the trouble.
Maybe a 4age If you wanted something spicier which would utilize the existing drivetrain, you need a custom harness and the ecu.
A 3sge, 3sgte or 1mz would require a GT drivetrain. The 3s engines are the only ones that you could use a factory harness on, they would bolt into a GT. 1mz is about as cheap as a 5sfe or 7a but then you need a lot of custom parts besides the GT drivetrain, exhaust, motor mount, clutch and wiring harness to name a few.

Boosting a 7a is always an option too. I was trying to figure out if 4age heads or camshafts would swap into a 7a but I lacked the interest to finish the hardcore research.

I was doing a little research for a friend once and I found on various 4A-GE oriented forums a couple of bottom end swaps. It's somewhat easier than the 3SGTE/GE head onto the 5SFE, as the bore for the pistons is the same so you can use 4A-GE pistons and no custom piston is necessary.

However, some things change and you have to get a Porsche timing belt because the block is taller on the 7AFE.

The 7A-FE also has a better design on the rods compared to the 5S-FE, 4A-GE and 3S-GTE in the sense that it already uses bolts and not "studs", which can be replaced for stronger ARP2000 units from a Renault Clio 16v for around $120.

A high compression, bigport 7age 1.8L hybrid with stock rods can rev up to 8600RPM with no problems if the rod bolts are used and it'll make 200whp if not more with proper mods (ITB, cams and exhaust mainly)

It seemed very attractive to me to go backwards and convert my GT celica into an ST with a Celica GT-S 2000+ 6-speed for an extra hundred wheel horsepower while N/A, but then I decided against it because I prefer turbos...

[Special_Edy]

Never read that one either. I used to watch too much TV ( I know that is bad) so when my then 6 years old daughter started quoting Disney characters, I decided it was time to cut the Cable 'cord'. Never been happier since. The remaining 5 local channels including public provide pleenty of news and entertainment that I never miss cable. I am especially happy that I dont have to hear or see Kardasians/honey bobo anymore. All that saving is now go into this project car (LOL).

Langing; You are in the heart (or close to it) of NASCAR country. You should have machine/engine building shops everywhere in that City. There is a lot of knowledge about engine building down south so I heard. I would recommend check with your folks at work etc., they will let you know or know of someone that does a reputable job.

In terms of buying the $300 rebuild head, some of those come with 1 year/unlimited mileage warranty. Someone told me the other day that usually they do not spend much time in valve lapping. Not sure if the local will do any better, it depends upon how busy they are.

Keeping an eye on the oil consumption right now and doing other stuff to bring it back to the state that I will be happy with.

We also cut the cable. . . about nine months ago. Still watch too much TV, but it's better cause it's actually coming from the computer, and is mostly YouTube how to, news and movies. Now any crap we watch is pretty much our own fault, except there has been a dramatic increase in the number of ads on YouTube. If ads get any worse, we will just cut out YouTube as well. What little intelligence I have is totally insulted by them. Our old provider was TimeWarner and they were so bad you can't believe, but worse because over 20% of their ads were for themselves! We were paying them a fortune to send out TimeWarner ads???

As far as me living in NASCAR country, you do have a good point. The kind of resources you are talking about probably do exist in many of the smaller towns scattered throughout NC, but especially in the mountains around Asheville where the moonshiners once thrived. Those guys created the racing industry because they had to in order to be in their line of business. Now NASCAR's HQs is in Charlotte near or at the Speedway. As I gain more experience working on my own car, perhaps I will run into some of those guys. It's something I should put some time into checking out. But long time racing stables like those of the Petty Brothers, to name one, certainly aren't looking to help idiots like me out. Many of them are now celebrities. I'll let you know if something interesting turns up. Till then, keep on aiming high!

Somehow I just read the part about youtube. The ads are fantastic. Most of my income comes from my youtube channel. If it wasnt for ads noone would waste their time bringing you quality videos. Time is money.

[msk59]

Soooo back to my original question: Are the aftermarket heads any good?

[Langing]

Soooo back to my original question: Are the aftermarket heads any good?

The original question sought information about experiences members have had when using a large head rebuilding company. So far, no member has stepped forward to offer a single experience. So, we are still left wondering how good these outfits are at rebuilding heads. And it would be good to know because they seem to offer an inexpensive approach to rebuild a head.


Previous comments have shown that this isn't a "no brainer" type of question. The answer depends on who is asking the question, what their personal goals are when asking (are they biased toward DIY; do they prefer giving he work to a local person, do they prefer to farm the job out and forget about it, etc), and at least one unknown (what experiences have people had.with corporate rebuilders).

Making the decision of what approach to use when you need to fix your head should depend on your expectations of quality, cost, time to complete, as well as the amount of personal effort required. So, break the problem down and ask instead simpler questions, as follows, and perhaps those answers might help make the bigger decision:


A) Which of the following approaches can be expected to provide the highest quality job when rebuilding an "old" head? (i.e., which will lead to the likelihood of the longest additional engine life?)

1) Total DIY?

2) DIY and Local Machine Shop?

3) DIY and a company that rebuilds thousands of heads each year?

4) No DIY; Just drop car off with Dealer to install NEW head.


B) Which of the following approaches is expected to provide the least expensive job when rebuilding an "old" head? (i.e., lowest cost)

1) Total DIY?

2) DIY and Local Machine Shop?

3) DIY and a company that rebuilds thousands of heads each year?

4) No DIY; Just drop car off with Dealer to install NEW head.


C) Which of the following approaches will take the least time to complete when rebuilding an "old" head? (i.e., least amount of time your car will be out of service)

1) Total DIY?

2) DIY and Local Machine Shop?

3) DIY and a company that rebuilds thousands of heads each year?

4) No DIY; Just drop car off with Dealer to install NEW head.


D) Which of the following approaches can be expected to require the least amount of your personal effort when rebuilding an "old" head? (i.e., which will lead to the likelihood of the longest additional engine life?)

1) Total DIY?

2) DIY and Local Machine Shop?

3) DIY and a company that rebuilds thousands of heads each year?

4) No DIY; Just drop car off with Dealer to install NEW head.





Me answering the four questions: A4, B3, C4, D4

Now, do the same exercise again, but drop out item 4:

Me answering the four questions: A3, B3, C3, D2

Let's take a poll. What would your answers be? Or is this exercise unhelpful?

[VavAlephVav]

You can add a poll if you go back and edit the original post.
From my experience you NEVER EVER pick #4 in any category.
I buy lots of high quality parts from Toyota, but once its past a certain age there's not much need for the dealer mechanic. It will be more expensive and you Still can't guarantee its right. : (

From there it really just depends on your skill level. If you have a garage and the tools and know what you're doing there's no reason not to do it yourself.
You're going to need the machine shop to rebuild your head. But if you're an a mature mechanic you could do it but not if its your daily driver and you have to have it done right in < 2 days.
Even when taking it to a shop just search around until you think you've found somebody who knows what they're doing and won't hose you.

[msk59]

OK here is my situation, which may or may not differ from Langing's situation:

1.This is my second car so I have another vehicle to drive if I have to.
2. I have a two car garage and almost all the tools to do the job
3. Know-how: This is the area where I do not have a whole lot of expertise. I have done one similar work on my 1974 Celica long time ago and I had help. So with little encouragement, I think I can do it. take the head off, take it to a reputable shop and have them rebuild it while I work on removing the pistons. the knowlege I lack is keeping it all straight, while putting it back together. Not putting the piston in the wrong cylinder etc.

My original question was whether aftermarket heads are reliable or not. The only reason for asking that question was to eliminate the wait time for the head rebuild and a little bit of saving.

My main goal is to put the car in its original running condition.

Thanks

[VavAlephVav]

To me the rebuilt head is just as good as a head that you take to a shop yourself, or for that matter if you buy a used head and take it to the machine shop yourself. But to me you can get a salvage head for $110 and get it cleaned, mangnifluxed, resurfaced tested and whatever for maybe as low as $50. But you will have the local machine shops testimony on the condition of the head.

[Special_Edy]

Whats the shipping on a cylinder head? Do you have to pay the shipping if it is returned?

[Langing]

OK here is my situation, which may or may not differ from Langing's situation:

1.This is my second car so I have another vehicle to drive if I have to.
2. I have a two car garage and almost all the tools to do the job
3. Know-how: This is the area where I do not have a whole lot of expertise. I have done one similar work on my 1974 Celica long time ago and I had help. So with little encouragement, I think I can do it. take the head off, take it to a reputable shop and have them rebuild it while I work on removing the pistons. the knowlege I lack is keeping it all straight, while putting it back together. Not putting the piston in the wrong cylinder etc.

My original question was whether aftermarket heads are reliable or not. The only reason for asking that question was to eliminate the wait time for the head rebuild and a little bit of saving.

My main goal is to put the car in its original running condition.

Thanks

We have quite similar situations, actually. My main goal is also to put my car into its original running condition. Here is my situation compared to yours:

#1, Same
#2, Same
#3. Same

"whether aftermarket heads are reliable or not" WAS your original question. If, in reality, the answer were that those aftermarket heads were of equal or better reliability than heads overhauled by a local machine shop, you might purchase one of them, and then you would "eliminate the wait time" while saving a little money. You would, of course have to repack and ship the head you remove back to the rebuilder (but you already paid for that in the original price).

IMHO using a rebuilt head from one of the big head rebuilders SHOULD be cheaper, and more reliable, than using a local machine shop because of economies of scale (by them purchasing wearing parts, cleaning solvents, and polishing materials in bulk), and refinement of process quality controls (having a line of expert rebuilders, people who do nothing but that all day long every day). These economies can only be achieved by a large rebuilder. Thus, this OUGHT to be the wise decision, only we have no one that has yet stepped up to testify that they have used rebuilt heads shipped by whoever, and are still perfectly happy some ten or more years later. But even that is a crap-shoot because it is a sample of only one. Statistically speaking, you need a much larger set of reviewers who have been satisfied before you know for certain. Why don't you contact a rebuilder and ask for testimonials from their customers?

Unless you personally know a local machine shop operator and you have absolute faith in him, because you have worked with him before, or someone you know and trust has, how do figure he will do your job as well as people who focus entirely on rebuilding heads? In today's economy, people who work for themselves cut as many corners as possible to be able to make any money at all. We are victims of the "race to the bottom." Today I find it impossible to find and employ a roofer, painter, auto mechanic, you name it, anyone who will do the work I want done at a level of quality that meets my standards, which are admittedly high but not unreasonable. That is, unless I pay more money than I can afford to give him the luxury of time to perform at that quality level. Even if I do that, it still might be impossible to get them to work "at my quality level".

And, I've a recent experience that fits this perfectly. I just paid a hungry painter a couple of hundred dollars more than he was asking ($800 rather than $600) to top off a few parts of the exterior house painting job I had been doing on my own home (I have a 30 foot ladder but still can't get to certain places). It wasn't a lot of work; I figured day or two. I was hoping that by my word and deed he would understand how badly I wanted him to give me a quality job. Turns out he thought he was doing the job to my standards, but he wasn't, and I could see no 'civil' way to explain the difference to him. I came away from the experience thinking that the problem was that he has an internal calibrated standard for the way he paints, a calibration that has been developing all along, and at the present time he really doesn't know how to paint in any way other than the way he does it ---- meaning a way in which he can make money, for to him, like so many others TIME = MONEY. So, he has only one speed, FAST. A machinist exists under the same economic pressures my painter lives in, so the same forces shape him as well.

In a typical machine shop, do they rebuild heads all day long? Or do they take in whatever machining job that comes in the door that day? If you found one that only did heads, then you might be safe choosing them to do the job on your head. Then you get back the same head that came off your car (a plus?) and you could perhaps watch them do the work to check if they are doing it well (do you know what to look for? I don't!).

Why is buying a rebuilt head any different than buying a rebuilt starter motor or a rebuilt alternator?

[Langing]

Whats the shipping on a cylinder head? Do you have to pay the shipping if it is returned?

The rebuilders I looked at charged a fixed fee (a few hundred dollars) and out of that money they purchase the return shipping, so all you do is crate the head back up in the container the head you bought came in and paste the prepaid shipping label on it and call Fed Ex, (or whoever).

Sorry, I reread your question. You asked if you have to pay if you return the head? I'm guessing you meant that the head that you received wasn't right for your car, or was damaged, or you wanted to return it for any reason to the rebuilder you bought it from. I would expect you would then have to pay the shipping charges, but you had already paid for shipping charges to send back the head you were removing when you put on the new one. Guess what you end up paying depends on the reason you want to ship it back. If it were non-functional, maybe they pay. I didn't see that situation described in what I read on-line.

This post has been edited by Langing: Jul 1, 2014 - 3:01 PM

[Langing]

To me the rebuilt head is just as good as a head that you take to a shop yourself, or for that matter if you buy a used head and take it to the machine shop yourself. But to me you can get a salvage head for $110 and get it cleaned, mangnifluxed, resurfaced tested and whatever for maybe as low as $50. But you will have the local machine shops testimony on the condition of the head.

I was thinking that rebuilding a head meant more than just cleaning, resurfacing, and checking for cracks. It's got cam shafts, and all sorts of stuff in there that I know nothing about, but don't the moving parts get examined for wear and replaced if needed. Don't they grind valve seats? Stuff like that?

What exactly do they do when they rebuild a head? Can you point me to some resource I can read, or some video on YouTube?

[Special_Edy]

Three angle valve job; lap the valves in; check the tolerances on the camshafts journals, camshaft lobes, reshim the valves, replace the valve seals, check the valve guides; check the head for cracks and resurface if necessary

[VavAlephVav]

Ya i'd say a 'rebuilt head' doesn't mean that they have ground the cams for performance or anything like that.

[Langing]

Three angle valve job; lap the valves in; check the tolerances on the camshafts journals, camshaft lobes, reshim the valves, replace the valve seals, check the valve guides; check the head for cracks and resurface if necessary

Muchas gracias! With that helpful info I can finally relate to what's going on.

You've done this before, right? Did you do most of it by yourself (DIY) or did you farm out the whole job? Or have you done it more than once?

With 16 valves, I would think that work could take a person a while to finish? Would it be true that most anyone mechanically inclined who has the right tools and is reasonably careful could do that job, with the exception of resurfacing, since that's the only task that requires expensive equipment, or do most of those tasks require expensive equipment? And how about cleaning all those parts, wouldn't that be a monster chore?

If an unskilled person, a DIY guy, just had the hots for taking an engine apart to rebuild it all by himself, wanted to get himself a salvage engine from a junkyard, would you try real hard to discourage him? Or would you stay silent and wait for him to fail?

For how many months would he have to reserve the garage to do this?

[msk59]

http://www.shop.headsonly.com/TOYOTA-CELIC...CELICA-7AFE.htm
here is the link of one re builder. and here is the description of what work is done to the head:

This listing is for a rebuilt Toyota Celica 7AFE cylinder head for the years 1993-1997. For other models see our store listings. This head is completely rebuilt. It has been pressure checked for cracks and resurfaced. Guides and seats have been replaced as needed. New VITON valve stem seals have been installed. All heads are given a three angle valve job. All valves have been vacuum checked to ensure proper sealing.

In terms of how long it will take to rebuild the head, Here is a video link I found that will give you an idea of what has been done. this will give you an idea of how the head is pulled out and how the piston rings are cleaned and replaced:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_ASGwWtrxE

Music is annoying LOL.

[Special_Edy]

Three angle valve job; lap the valves in; check the tolerances on the camshafts journals, camshaft lobes, reshim the valves, replace the valve seals, check the valve guides; check the head for cracks and resurface if necessary

Muchas gracias! With that helpful info I can finally relate to what's going on.

You've done this before, right? Did you do most of it by yourself (DIY) or did you farm out the whole job? Or have you done it more than once?

With 16 valves, I would think that work could take a person a while to finish? Would it be true that most anyone mechanically inclined who has the right tools and is reasonably careful could do that job, with the exception of resurfacing, since that's the only task that requires expensive equipment, or do most of those tasks require expensive equipment? And how about cleaning all those parts, wouldn't that be a monster chore?

If an unskilled person, a DIY guy, just had the hots for taking an engine apart to rebuild it all by himself, wanted to get himself a salvage engine from a junkyard, would you try real hard to discourage him? Or would you stay silent and wait for him to fail?

For how many months would he have to reserve the garage to do this?

Ive had a couple heads worked on, had to have a burnt exhaust valve replaced on my old 5s motor. Last head I had apart was for my '82 Yamaha SECA 750, none of the local shops claimed to have the equipment for that small of valves so I lapped the valves and replaced the stem seals myself. Had to buy a special sized valve removal tool.

Without tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, your are limited to-

Removing the valves, replacing the valve stem seals with them out.
Lapping the valves with valve grinding compound.
Using calipers to measure the valves, camshaft lobes and cam journals.
Using plastigauge to measure the clearance inside the cam journals.
Reshimming the valve lifters back into spec.
Checking the straightness of the head.

Grinding the valves and valve seats requires serious machinery, as does replacing the seat or valve guide. But luckly these things are usually only needed on a severely worn head. I would stake money on toyota cylinder heads outliving the block and lower end by several hundred thousand miles as long as the engine is properly maintained. Just make sure the valve shims are in spec, they have something like a 75,000 mile service check interval.

[msk59]

Langing: i spoke to a guy named David from Cylinders Head International. He explained what is done to the head is exactly what he described on their website. he also mentioned that he sells about 70 heads a day from his shop. I asked him if there is additional work requires and he said NOT usually, however, sometimes you do need to adjust the valves if there is a valve chatter.

In Shims under bucket valve system, it is rather difficult to adjust as you would need the exact shim to replace it with. Most sport bikes have that type of valves adjustment.

I think I am going to go with the aftermarket head in the next month or so.

[Langing]

Langing: i spoke to a guy named David from Cylinders Head International. He explained what is done to the head is exactly what he described on their website. he also mentioned that he sells about 70 heads a day from his shop. I asked him if there is additional work requires and he said NOT usually, however, sometimes you do need to adjust the valves if there is a valve chatter.

In Shims under bucket valve system, it is rather difficult to adjust as you would need the exact shim to replace it with. Most sport bikes have that type of valves adjustment.

I think I am going to go with the aftermarket head in the next month or so.

Thanks for the info. Going with a large rebuilder like that seems to me ought to be our best option, all things considered, and especially if we don't want to (or can't) waste a lot of time learning how to be an engine mechanic. Using a local shop, even a good one, judging from the comments, requires that you are fairly knowledgeable about a variety of things, else you can't validate their work. If that man ships out 70 rebuilt heads every day, that's a good indication that his organization is good at rebuilding heads, so your chances of getting a poorly rebuilt one should be low.

SpecialEdy was kind enough to spell out the ginormous amount of sophisticated technical work that is involved in rebuilding a head properly, and no matter how much you choose to take upon yourself, you would still have to use the services of a "trusted" machine shop. I have nothing against machine shops, or the people who own and/or operate them, and in fact believe it important to send work their way whenever you can to help them stay alive. However, when it comes to figuring out the best way to get your engine rebuilt, there is more to it than simply removing and replacing a cylinder head (block, intake, exhaust, etc), and simplifying the process (while achieving a higher probability of getting the job done correctly) seems wise. We need our cars out of service as short a time as possible.

I don't know about you, but each time I attempt something totally new, it takes me anywhere from 2X to 4X the time it should, like if I had been through the process at least once before. That reminds me of the video you posted of the time lapse engine overhaul (with the Christmas music). It made me want to learn how to do that, but scared me as well. There is a whole lot happening in that foreshortened video!

Here's another thought that perhaps you've had yourself. How about getting your car in shape the best and fastest way possible (I can hear your mom's pleasure rising and then falling). . . then, as you have time, search for your Celica's NEXT engine, the one you wished you had in her to begin with, the one that you can imagine would make her whisk through puberty, say from a junkyard or parts place, somewhere you could buy one cheap, and get yourself set up (in your mom's garage? ?) to take your time rebuilding that engine, one it wouldn't matter if you wasted because you would NOT potentially lose much money. If a secret desire to rebuild an engine from scratch was psychologically embedded in your current decision making, you could get it out of your system that way as time and money came available. It's just a thought.

[msk59]

thanks Langing. I just spoke to a mechanic who is a retired Toyota Mechanic. i am taking the car to him next Tuesday and he will check it for me i.e., compression test, leak-down test to see how big a problem I have.

I asked him about the re-manufactured head and he DOES NOT recommend it. He had bad experience in terms of some shops will weld the crack on the head etc. With luck he knows local shops who he trusts for his work to do his machine work for him.

(BTW, I do have my own garage LOL, that is where I spent most of my time anyways)

[VavAlephVav]

There you go, the most important thing is to find peoples you can trust.

And I totally agree i'd rather take it to somebody else so I can be sure it's taken care of right the first time. These guys keep trying to convince me I could do it myself, and I'm sure I could ...eventually
I think $500 for a job that pays 8 hours for somebody I trust is not a bad deal at all.
And if I made an oil mess in Mom's garage then SHE'd blow a head gasket.

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Jul 2, 2014 - 11:11 AM

[Langing]

Three angle valve job; lap the valves in; check the tolerances on the camshafts journals, camshaft lobes, reshim the valves, replace the valve seals, check the valve guides; check the head for cracks and resurface if necessary

Muchas gracias! With that helpful info I can finally relate to what's going on.

You've done this before, right? Did you do most of it by yourself (DIY) or did you farm out the whole job? Or have you done it more than once?

With 16 valves, I would think that work could take a person a while to finish? Would it be true that most anyone mechanically inclined who has the right tools and is reasonably careful could do that job, with the exception of resurfacing, since that's the only task that requires expensive equipment, or do most of those tasks require expensive equipment? And how about cleaning all those parts, wouldn't that be a monster chore?

If an unskilled person, a DIY guy, just had the hots for taking an engine apart to rebuild it all by himself, wanted to get himself a salvage engine from a junkyard, would you try real hard to discourage him? Or would you stay silent and wait for him to fail?

For how many months would he have to reserve the garage to do this?

Ive had a couple heads worked on, had to have a burnt exhaust valve replaced on my old 5s motor. Last head I had apart was for my '82 Yamaha SECA 750, none of the local shops claimed to have the equipment for that small of valves so I lapped the valves and replaced the stem seals myself. Had to buy a special sized valve removal tool.

Without tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, your are limited to-

Removing the valves, replacing the valve stem seals with them out.
Lapping the valves with valve grinding compound.
Using calipers to measure the valves, camshaft lobes and cam journals.
Using plastigauge to measure the clearance inside the cam journals.
Reshimming the valve lifters back into spec.
Checking the straightness of the head.

Grinding the valves and valve seats requires serious machinery, as does replacing the seat or valve guide. But luckly these things are usually only needed on a severely worn head. I would stake money on toyota cylinder heads outliving the block and lower end by several hundred thousand miles as long as the engine is properly maintained. Just make sure the valve shims are in spec, they have something like a 75,000 mile service check interval.

I sincerely appreciate your helpfulness in introducing me to this (what is to me a) new world. What you just posted is most helpful; made things snap into place. You also pointed out something I have been ignoring for a long time because of my lack of experience and shallow understanding. I'm talking about the importance of keeping the valve shims in spec. Their service interval is 75,000 miles and I've not paid the least attention to them for the 300,000 miles I've put on her. Maybe if I got those shims adjusted, she might be able to go over 70 without me feeling like she needs rest (seems happy at 60)! That adds a new task to my relatively immediate todo list!

Although I find engine guts intimidating, I've had my 7A-FE valve cover off twice since I bought Betsy, once because of an oil leak at the spark plug tube ends (caused by a service mechanic) and the second was when I changed out her timing belt. So, it is not EXACTLY like I see the engine as a complete black box. I have seen her cam shafts

So, when I read your advice I popped open Vol 1 of my BGB and skimmed over the VALVE CLEARANCE INSPECTION AND ADJUSTMENT procedure. It has some terminology that I will have to puzzle but the only thing that caught my eye as being a possible problem for me is their use of two SSTs on the exhaust side used to take out, measure, and replace the adjusting shims (SST A and SST B. . . page EG-22), needed because the exhault cam shaft is not removed in the procedure. Since my experience with Toyota tells me you cannot get your hands on their special service tools, I'm wondering if there are suitable alternative tools? I've got thickness gauge, micrometer, etc., and I can be careful when removing the intake cam shaft, so this job doesn't look all that intimidating to me. Seems I'm slowly being forced to crawl deeper and deeper into her internal organs!


BTW: I googled images of the Yamaha SECA 750. If your 82 is like those images, you had/have a very nice looking motorcycle!

[Langing]

thanks Langing. I just spoke to a mechanic who is a retired Toyota Mechanic. i am taking the car to him next Tuesday and he will check it for me i.e., compression test, leak-down test to see how big a problem I have.

I asked him about the re-manufactured head and he DOES NOT recommend it. He had bad experience in terms of some shops will weld the crack on the head etc. With luck he knows local shops who he trusts for his work to do his machine work for him.

(BTW, I do have my own garage LOL, that is where I spent most of my time anyways)

It is good to know that you have clean, protected space in which you can do this kind of work.

That negative recommendation from an expert is helpful and certainly timely. Makes my logical reasoning look flawed.

But makes me wonder where the flaw is?

When you are interacting with him try to pump him for information like: whether his bad experience(s) came while he was an active Toyota Mechanic or afterwards; how many times did he experience such problems versus how many times he installed rebuilt heads; could that/those bad experience(s) have been isolated events or did they occur with all re-manufacturers; were there general instructions given to Toyota Mechanics NOT to use head re-manufacturers; why did he think a re-manufacturer would try to get away with doing something so obviously unethical as that (clearly, they would lose a head from the "circulation" that keeps their business going, but getting another from a junkyard ought to be cheap and easy, AND the cost of getting a bad reputation is always hanging over them if they operated this way); was "welding a crack on a head" the only problem he has seen coming from them; did they generally do a superior job of rebuilding heads, otherwise? I would be looking for other reasons to be biased against re-manufacturers, since I still have hope.

Like, what might cause a supposed expert Toyota Mechanic to favor a local machine shop over re-builders, other than what he reported to you. I know, for example, that Toyota dealers charge an enormous amount of money for their OEM Toyota parts, and do the same in charging for their Mechanic's time. They consequently seem to sell parts that are, indeed, OEM (i.e. high) quality. They don't need call-backs for any reason because they simply cannot afford to potentially be seen as providing inferior service. If I was a RETIRED Toyota Mechanic and was presented with the situation you and I are in with aging Celica engines, and I had limited funds, why would I insist on only using OEM quality parts in my personal car, unless I was still thinking like a Toyota Mechanic? I can imagine that while he was working directly for Toyota, being a well trained mechanic, he probably didn't have to think twice about charging his customers extra to cover the costs of using a local machine shop with which he developed a nice working relationship over time, and that machine shop would have good reason to do their absolute best work when a Toyota job was coming in the door. Would the same shop treat you the same? Would you know a machine shop that did Toyota's work?

I wonder if the guy who told you he shipped 70 heads per day would tell you how many heads he shipped to car dealer shops versus independent shops, and DIY people?

And remember, a sample of one isn't statistically meaningful. We need to find a number of experts who report similar examples before we can know we should write these guys off. Maybe I will visit some of the other Toyota websites looking for comments about head rebuilders and report back as to what I find.

All that said, what your Toyota Mechanic said is not good on its face!

[Langing]

There you go, the most important thing is to find peoples you can trust.

And I totally agree i'd rather take it to somebody else so I can be sure it's taken care of right the first time. These guys keep trying to convince me I could do it myself, and I'm sure I could ...eventually
I think $500 for a job that pays 8 hours for somebody I trust is not a bad deal at all.
And if I made an oil mess in Mom's garage then SHE'd blow a head gasket.

Exactly, TRUST is the most important issue we are dealing with. These days, it isn't easy to develop!


But once you have. . . life is good!

[VavAlephVav]

To me that is the most important reason to not buy something like that from someplace far enough away to have to ship it.
I talk about going to "school" and "Living at moms", but I'm really not that young at all. And I've worked many jobs for many different companies and it doesn't matter What business they are in, They make money because they F3kk people everyday.
And you would think logically that you could make even More money if you would Do What Is Right, but they don't give a f3ck, they just keep on f3cking people. They figure most people are so afraid of getting f3cked some more that once they realize they've been f3cked they won't even come back to complain or try to get their money back.
And even if a few people do it won't matter because they've made so much money off of everybody else.

So it is good to search around to find somebody who knows what they are talking about and ask them who They trust.

[Langing]

To me that is the most important reason to not buy something like that from someplace far enough away to have to ship it.
I talk about going to "school" and "Living at moms", but I'm really not that young at all. And I've worked many jobs for many different companies and it doesn't matter What business they are in, They make money because they F3kk people everyday.
And you would think logically that you could make even More money if you would Do What Is Right, but they don't give a f3ck, they just keep on f3cking people. They figure most people are so afraid of getting f3cked some more that once they realize they've been f3cked they won't even come back to complain or try to get their money back.
And even if a few people do it won't matter because they've made so much money off of everybody else.

So it is good to search around to find somebody who knows what they are talking about and ask them who They trust.

That is a really sad comment! Nonetheless, I agree with the truth of it. That's where things stand today. Maybe we can join together to find a way to make things better? Like sharing the names of people and companies we, as individuals, have come to trust; call it a TRUSTED LIST! So many people want things done right; this website is a testament to that, and there are so few who are spoiling it for the rest of us. Put them on the DO NOT TRUST LIST; drive them out of business, and out of our lives!

[Special_Edy]

You can remove the exhaust camshaft on the 5s, possibly the 7a, without much effort. Its the intake camshaft which requires a lot of disassembly. The only important things are making sure you install the camshaft bearing caps in the correct order (they are numbered), and that you reinstall the camshaft with the timing marks aligned properly.

The exhaust valves are typically the faster wearing valves on any engine, they are heated by the exhaust while open which can cause wear, and they shed the heat through the valve seat when closed. The intake valves are cooled by the valve seats too, but also cooled by the cool air from the intake flowing through them. 100 or less degree air vs 1000+ degree air makes a big difference in the valve's life.

[msk59]

Thanks to all for their input. I think the strong consensus from reading this thread is the best way to go, which may be a bit expensive is to go with the rebuilding your existing head from a local shop you have found (hopefully reputable)
So I am now gathering parts and other info. I started another thread in which I am asking what brand of parts to go with since I have read many different reviews on this board.
Special_Edy: Thank you for your input. I got the factory Service Manual for 1996 Celica and I will be using that to dismantle the engine. For now the plan is to not remove the entire engine from the car. However, if I found out more work is required then I will do that.

Thanks to all

[Langing]

Thanks to all for their input. I think the strong consensus from reading this thread is the best way to go, which may be a bit expensive is to go with the rebuilding your existing head from a local shop you have found (hopefully reputable)
So I am now gathering parts and other info. I started another thread in which I am asking what brand of parts to go with since I have read many different reviews on this board.
Special_Edy: Thank you for your input. I got the factory Service Manual for 1996 Celica and I will be using that to dismantle the engine. For now the plan is to not remove the entire engine from the car. However, if I found out more work is required then I will do that.

Thanks to all

I'm hoping you will open a thread to photo-document the tear down, rework, and rebuilding of your cylinder head, so we can all learn from your experiences?

[msk59]

I am planning on it. I was going to start last weekend but other priorities interfered and this weekend looks shot too! I would like to start and finish before it gets too cold.