Gathering Info for 7A-FE Rebuild, Need advice on parts etc Options

[msk59]

Hello All: I am getting ready to rebuild the head and change the piston rings on my 1996 7A-FE ST hatchback. I spoke to the local dealer and they gave me price on the parts. I also have Rock Auto's price as well and there is a difference in price but quality is unknown to me, although i have heard good stuff about Rock Auto:

So here are my questions:

Rebuild gasket set : Dealer or Aftermarket (if Aftermarket then which brand)
Piston Rings: Dealer or Aftermarket (if Aftermarket then which brand)

Valve Seats/covers etc: Dealer or Aftermarket (if Aftermarket then which brand)

Head Bolts: Dealer or Aftermarket (if Aftermarket then which brand)


All you gurus out there, please provide your input


Thank You all in advance.

[Box]

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=72502&hl

[msk59]

Oh Yes, I have read/watched that one many times.

[Box]

Hmm, only thing I'd know to say is to find the service manual as it'll have everything you'll need to know and more.

[msk59]

Box thanks. I got one off eBay earlier this week so i am set to go. House is full of guests so I took Monday off and will start the work hopefully Sunday night or Monday.

[Bitter]

I'd use dealer for the important parts, like the head gasket and the head bolts, but bearings are fine aftermarket and so are the rest of the gaskets.

[Box]

If you get Timken or Nachi bearings and races, odds are they were the OEM supplier to begin with.

[msk59]

Thank You all for the input and advise. I got the tear down started. Taking pictures as i go along. So far I have taken the intake apart, exhaust out and the cams are out. Overall two day progress. i am taking my time as too much to absorb and learn.

Intake Manifold was full of crud and carbon. 99% of EGR holes were plugged. I am surprised how this car ran all this time. Took all day to get those clean.

Earlier tonight, i focused on the head. So far both cams came out as I followed the Factory Service Manual. Now the head bolts. Will deal with them tomorrow. The manual says to get the SST. I read somewhere here that other sockets would work.

Oh and I ordered the parts from local Toyota dealer. They are offering me 20% discount.

[Box]

Yeah that's the one downside to EGR, coats the top end of the motor in gunk. My current car came without EGR from the factory, hooray.

[Smaay]

do not get gaskets from rockauto or ebay. Get the OEM rebuild kit. Just ask yourself, do you want to do this all over again?

also check your cylinders for roundness, and proper size. I spent the extra money and had the cylinders bored .020 over and got the oversized pistons. I used aftermarket pistons and rings. no problems there. You will have to heat up the piston to get the wrist pin in. Its not a floater like the 5S.

This post has been edited by Smaay: Jul 30, 2014 - 8:04 AM

[msk59]

Oh Yes! I remember you giving the same advice to someone else here so that is what I did. I ordered engine rebuild kit from my local dealer. 20% off the retail.

Thank You Smaay.

[msk59]

I started pullilng the head and cylinders out: So far:

1; Intake and Exhasut out and cleaned; (Intake were about 90% filled with carbon and gunk)

2: Head and cams out (all labelled and ready to go to shop for rebuild)

3: Both Oil-pans are out. Everything is orange in color (LOL);

I will pull the pistons out tonight and will order the new rings sets. Dont know whether I should go with one over or standard.

[Special_Edy]

You will need to measure the bores. Just take it to a shop and let them determine if you need the cylinders honed out or overbored with oversize pistons and rings. They will have to hone them at the very least, something you could do but I wouldnt suggest it.

[msk59]

Edy: I have some help from a few experienced folks.

Took the pistons out. They were not too bad but the oil ring was completly clogged, including the holes in the piston were plugged as well. So thoroughly cleaned the pistons last night.

Cylinders do not look too bad. There are some shinnig areas especially towards the front and back where the piston sides rub against the cylinder walls. Hatch marks are visible elsewhere.

Placed one of the old rings back in the cylinder block to check the gap (per the FSM) and it is more than the recommended so the rings will be replaced. Question is should I go once size over or install standard rings?

Next i will measure the bores. The engine is still in the car so I cannot take it to a mechanic.

The C-Rods bearings were all fine except #4 which is bad so all bearings will be replaced. Crank still looks shining except on the 4 cylinder where it would need to be polished again. I think it can be done in the car.

Anything else I would need to do?

This post has been edited by msk59: Jul 31, 2014 - 11:06 AM

[Special_Edy]

Replace the rear main seal and the front crankshaft seal. Make sure the taper of the bores is within spec, this is what determines the hone vs overbore. As you noticed it will tend to become wider at the top and bottom in the directions the crank rotates.
The valves, rings and rod bearings are typically the only high wear items.

Double check all the crank and rod bearings with plastigauge. Its only a couple dollars a package. You may need an oversize bearing for #4, just measure with calipers or plastigauge a normal bearing in it.

I would suggest pricing a shop turning the #4 rod journal, your never going to get it perfectly straight and round polishing by hand.

[msk59]

Edy: thank you for the input.

CRANK SEALS: In regards to front and rear seal, the engine block is still in the car. I did not pull the whole engine out. Front seal was recently replaced when I replaced the timing belt.

PISTON/RINGS: I have marked all the pistons and corresponding connecting rod and bearings. I plan on taking those to dealer to get the exact replacement bearings (Per the manual) I have to replace it by the same number. At the same time I will order the rings (standard). The plan is to buy the standard and use a ring to see if it is within specs, if not then I will get one size over. (Please let me know if this is the way to go)

CRANK BEARINGS: I have not open the crank caps yet to see what conditions of the crank shaft bearing (that is next).

SEARCH FOR MICROMETER: Last night we went to rent the tool to measure the innerbore but Sears (who makes one) did not have one nor did the Autozone or Advance Auto. I will check other AUTO stores in town.

I will get the plastigauge tonight.

This post has been edited by msk59: Aug 1, 2014 - 8:27 AM

[msk59]

Hello all: I need help setting the timing on my 7AFE engine from 1996 celica ST. I installed the head back by following the factory manual. The cams have been installed and they are fine. the manual says to check the marks on the cam pulley But there are no marks on the pulley that the book suggests. What should I do at this point. Any suggestion would be appreciated.

[Box]

It's possible the cam gears are on backwards.

[msk59]

No I am talking about the pulley on which the belt is mounted. The cam gears are installed correctly. as I can see both installation marks and the timing marks. and they align perfectly.

Do I need to remove the crank pulley and timing belt cover to setup the timing?

This post has been edited by msk59: Aug 10, 2014 - 4:26 PM

[Box]

All the marks you need should be on the crank pulley and cam gears.

[msk59]

Box thanks. It appears to be that everything is lining up now. See I replaced the rings, honed the cylinder. Head work was done by a shop. The dealer short changed me on three different gaskits so I have to call them today to get those replaced.

In regards to the timing, all the marks are lining up at this time, so I will see if it fires up.

Any advice on which oil to use to break in?

[Smaay]

use plain 10W30 oil. do NOT use synthetic!

[msk59]

Smaay. Do I need to add zinc in it? someone at the local shop suggested it.

[Special_Edy]

You can buy break in oil.

Run the motor at 2000rpm for twenty minutes upon initial start up, then change the oil. Some people have suggestions for breaking in the rings, usually its either baby it for 500-1000 miles or run it real hard a few times to seat the rings.
Put moly lube(or "assembly lube") on on the moving parts when you put the motor back together, and some light oil on the cylinder walls. Just enough to film the bores with of motor oil or bar/chain oil if you have it.

This post has been edited by Special_Edy: Aug 11, 2014 - 1:20 PM

[Smaay]

You can buy break in oil.

Run the motor at 2000rpm for twenty minutes upon initial start up, then change the oil. Some people have suggestions for breaking in the rings, usually its either baby it for 500-1000 miles or run it real hard a few times to seat the rings.
Put moly lube(or "assembly lube") on on the moving parts when you put the motor back together, and some light oil on the cylinder walls. Just enough to film the bores with of motor oil or bar/chain oil if you have it.

no that is the worst thing to do. you drive it hard, hammer down till about 5000 RPM, then let off to about 2000, then hammer down till 5000 again. This will seat the rings good and properly.

when assembling do not use moly lube. use assembly lube.

[msk59]

Thank You very much Smaay. I did and am using assembly lube. Everything is going back as it should. New OEM Headbolts, all headwork done by local Head shop (they only do head work and have very good reputation). New OEM rings.

My main purpose of the rebuld was to bring it back to stock. So no major upgrades except I am thinking of adding an oil cooler.

[Box]

Oil cooler would be a great idea, and should reduce the chances of the 7A becoming an oil burner again.

[Special_Edy]

Does the 7AFE have a stock oil cooler? The 5SFE does. It's at the base of the oil filter and utilizes coolant(the coolant is ~50-100 degrees cooler than oil).

The 2000 rpm is to seat the bearings and valvetrain

This post has been edited by Special_Edy: Aug 11, 2014 - 4:06 PM

[Tort1llaboy]

Does the 7AFE have a stock oil cooler? The 5SFE does. It's at the base of the oil filter and utilizes coolant(the coolant is ~50-100 degrees cooler than oil).

The 2000 rpm is to seat the bearings and valvetrain

yea it deos have a stock oil cooler

[Box]

Strange, mine didn't have one and it was OE. Could be a regional or yearly thing.

[msk59]

No there is no oil cooler in this car and also there is no hole in the upper oil pan for recirculation either.

I am looking on line to see what type of oil cooler to get. there is an oil filter relocation kit available at Trans dapt Part # 1113 but no cooler application.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TRD-1113/?rtype=10

I had it book marked a tutorial on how to install one of these but the website does not populate. Should not be that difficult to figure out. My question is this: Is there enough space to put an oil cooler sandwich adapter in there between the AC and alternaor?

[Box]

I'd route the oil cooler out to the front of the car if at all possible, that way it's more effective.

[msk59]

agreed but the first challange is to find the right cooler, the sandwich adapter. I have selected a location in front of the radiator

[Box]

I think Mishimoto makes oil coolers and such.

[Special_Edy]

You dont need an upgraded oil cooler, it will do more harm than good. Your going to decrease the flow of oil. The pressure restriction will probably be offest by the higher viscosity at lower temperatures. But the oil pump is the highest horsepower consuming accessory on the motor. 10W-30 oil actually has a viscosity of several hundred at room temperature, its supposed to reach an operating temperature of 200-300 degrees F in non racing applications, up to 400-500 in a race engine. The thinner it gets the more HP you will have. Since your engine isnt producing enormous amounts of power you will not see any benefits of increased cooling.
If the oil doesnt get hot enough it wont burn off the fuel and water gases slipping past the rings. Your oil will turn to sludge and you will damage the engine.

The stock oil cooler is what the oil filter screws onto. It is connected to the water pump and the two coolant lines running under the exhaust.

This post has been edited by Special_Edy: Aug 11, 2014 - 11:05 PM

[Bitter]

5S applications have an oil cooler because it combated sludge and varnish issues, 7A's seem to have those issues as well. A factory style oil cooler isn't going to be detrimental in a street application, it's less restrictive than the oil filter itself! The oil flows pretty much straight through it anyway, it jogs side to side some along the way but it's incredibly non restrictive. The stock cooler is a misnomer, it's a temperature regulator. It helps keep the oil temp relative to coolant temp, same as the automatic transmission heat exchanger in the radiator does. Heat flows from hot to cold always, so if the coolant heats faster than the oil (and it does) then the coolant is heating the oil till they're equal temp, then as the oil temp rises above coolant temp the reverse happens, the oil is regulated to always be at least coolant temp or higher. It helps stop spikes in oil temp from heavy load and brings those temps back down faster than no cooler at all which is good for the engine and the oil life. You can't over cool the oil with a stock style heat exchanger.


Disregard part numbers, they are for the 5S-FE as is that particular oil cooler. I'm not sure what OEM Toyota oil cooler would fit or work on a 7A-FE. Possibly a 5S one would from a Camry, but I have no idea how to tell.

This post has been edited by Bitter: Aug 11, 2014 - 11:25 PM

[msk59]

Thank You all for this valuable information. I am definetely inclined towards installing a factory oil cooler if I can find one here in North America. The second option would be (as suggested by Bitter) to use one from 5SFE engine. Those should be common.

Tort1llaboy's thread in this section shows a picture of his oil cooler on the engine block. He is sending me a closeup picture.

Question 1: Has anyone installed a factory oil cooler in their 7AFE engines? If so would you care to show me some pictures?

Question 2: Has anyone installed one from an 5SFE engine? If so, Can I see how it is done?

Those that have an OEM oil cooler/temperature regulator in their cars, can I see some additional pictures?

Many thanks in advance.

Thank You Special Edy/Bitter/Smaay and Tort1llaboy for providing your valueable input

This post has been edited by msk59: Aug 12, 2014 - 8:09 AM

[Smaay]

I dont think the 5S oil cooler will work. first off you need the hard water lines from the water pump, those are on the other side of the block on the 7A.

This is the oil filter mount on the 7A, look at the differences on the 5S





its hard to tell but it looks like you could use that small bolt hole at 1 o'clock to help mount the cooler. but you will also be adding about 2" to the height of your filter, I dont think that will clear the header.
And the hole in the block needs to be the same threads as the 5S. I dont think it is.

If you have your heart set on getting an oil cooler, then I suggest a relocation kit, move the filter to a mount on the frame and have the cooler mounted to the front like I did here in my All-Trac.

[msk59]

Thanks Smaay: I see the differences and the clearence issues. It seems that some of the 7As came with the cooler (Please see Tort1llaboy picture on page 6 of his thread). If I can get that oil cooler then that would solve the problem. I will see what the local dealer has to say.

Relocation Kit is a possibility but wouldn't it put stress on the oil pump? If I understood Special Edy's comment above!

Unfortunately, there aren't any cars in my neighborhood salvage yard that I can venture into and see for myself. LKQ guys are rude at best. The others mostly cater to domestic.

[Special_Edy]

Do what Bitter alluded to. If you have a 5spd and a radiator with the ports to cool the auto transmission utilize that. Its just a straight piece of pipe inside the lower radiator tank. Its significantly cooler in the radiator then the lines from the waterpump which feed the stock oil cooler, but it would be hotter than running a stand alone oil cooler.

If you arent in a hot environment(it gets pretty hot here in Texas) than you might not want to even bother.

Do what Bitter alluded to. If you have a 5spd and a radiator with the ports to cool the auto transmission utilize that. Its just a straight piece of pipe inside the lower radiator tank. Its significantly cooler in the radiator then the lines from the waterpump which feed the stock oil cooler, but it would be hotter than running a stand alone oil cooler.

If you arent in a hot environment(it gets pretty hot here in Texas) than you might not want to even bother.

[msk59]

I do have a 5 speed but I checked the radiator last night and it does not have the ports for oil cooler. But I can find a radiator for auto transmission. Finding an OEM 7afe oil cooler would be a problem.

Also I spoke to our local dealer here and they will be checking to see if the OEM oil cooler is available to US Market.

This post has been edited by msk59: Aug 13, 2014 - 8:37 AM

[Special_Edy]

Maybe there was one on another A series motor

[Bitter]

If any A engine had an oil cooler it would have been a 4A-GZE in the US market.

[msk59]

Guys Here is an idea. Mocal and Greddy make a sandwich adapter thermostatically control. That will eliminate both issues and is doable to our 7afe engine.

see link below. I just need the size of the oil filter so i can get a matching adapter. Anyone knows,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNI-MOCAL-OTSP1X-O...e15&vxp=mtr


This post has been edited by msk59: Aug 13, 2014 - 6:57 PM

[Box]

O.D. 2.69"; Inside Diam/Thread 3/4"-16; Height 3.52"

[msk59]

awesome thanks

Well I got the car fired up. It started right up and we drove it around the block after warmup per Smaay and Special Edy's instructions. Everything ran fine until the throtle cable broke/came out near the gas padel, so limped it home and it got dark so parked it for the night. This morning there was a small pool of oil so I think I may not have tighten the oil filter properly. Dont see any other areas for oil leak but you never know.

So far I am happy, my first attempt to re-ring the car. Thank You to you all for all your help.

Lets hope that nothing else breaks LOL

This post has been edited by msk59: Aug 15, 2014 - 7:47 AM

[msk59]

UPDATE: Had to pull the upper oil pan out again and this time we used a different FIPG. The book says to put a 6mm thick/wide bead and this time it is not leaking. Changed the oil and filter again and the car is now running fine.

Still have to watch the oil consumption.

Thank You all again for all your help and encouragement.

[doory100]

Hello All: I am getting ready to rebuild the head and change the piston rings on my 1996 7A-FE ST hatchback. I spoke to the local dealer and they gave me price on the parts. I also have Rock Auto's price as well and there is a difference in price but quality is unknown to me, although i have heard good stuff about Rock Auto:

So here are my questions:

Rebuild gasket set : Dealer or Aftermarket (if Aftermarket then which brand)
Piston Rings: Dealer or Aftermarket (if Aftermarket then which brand)

Valve Seats/covers etc: Dealer or Aftermarket (if Aftermarket then which brand)

Head Bolts: Dealer or Aftermarket (if Aftermarket then which brand)


All you gurus out there, please provide your input


Thank You all in advance.

dont waste your time just drop a new engine in with lower miles

[msk59]

If I could find one I would have. This work took about 2 weeks with most of the time waiting for parts to arrive.

[doory100]

I am going to do the head gasket on my 5sfe engine. My mechanic said its 8 hours and the engine swap is 12 hours.
I dont want to take out the engine like you did and its cheaper to do the head gasket.
how much was the dealer rebuild kit??
how was it running before the rebuild? how is it running now?
My GT is leaking oil out of the head so thats why I'm replacing it. Other than the clutch slipping its not burning oil or lacking any power.

[msk59]

First I replaced the rings and connecting rod bearing while the block was still in the car. I only took the head out. Gave it to a cylinder head shop with parts for rebuild. I hone the cylinders, and did a good cleaning the engine and intake and put new rings and connecting rods bearings. The crankshaft bearing were fine.

Total cost of everything including purchase/tool rental etc around $900.00

The Ring set from dealer standard were around $130. Gasket set = $122.00. I got all parts at discount price.

My engine was running fine but it was eating a lot of oil. The rings were gone. The oil rings were completely clogged.

This post has been edited by msk59: Aug 17, 2014 - 4:06 PM