Buying New Celica - What should I look for?, In hopes to convert to GT-Four eventually Options

[Selly_Kuhman]

I have had a Silv 96' Anniversary Ed. 5-Speed ST Celica for years and sadly lost it last year (RIP), before I was able to do the GT-Four conversion I was planning on. I didn't know 100% if I should do it based on how hard/expensive it would be for someone who doesn't mod/fix cars as a hobby. Although I thought I may ask some things before I look into getting another 6g Celica, since that has been my goal for years now which I never got around to doing.

I am good with my hands, and would love to take on this project, but I have nowhere to work on the car where I live. I have read tons of forum threads and posts, and feel a bit overwhelmed by how complicated this looks for an amateur like myself. Hopefully I'm getting myself worried for nothing...hopefully... I'd be happy if anyone can help me out with any one of these questions!


-Jay


What's the mileage I should be looking for on a new Celica?


What's the price range I should expect to look for? (I live in NY)


If I get an automatic, does that make me a pussy? (I know it does, but is there anyone who has a gt4 auto)


What year's / trim does the GT-Four conversion work with? eg. ST, GT, Convertible? (Is there a combo that it is easiest/cheaper for)


What are the parts needed to convert the hood, bumper and spoiler?


How much do the parts cost individually?


Where would I be able to acquire these parts?


Who would be able to do the conversion?


How much would labor cost around to install them?



Here's a few I found that are semi-close to me. Would be grateful if anyone knew of any others in my area for sale.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/ve...57640&Log=0

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/ve...68893&Log=0

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/ve...87383&Log=0

[richee3]

What's the mileage I should be looking for on a new Celica?
To me, the condition of the car matters more than mileage. If there's a 150,000 mile Celica with all maintenance records and in excellent condition, I'd buy that well before a 50,000 beat up car. You can search for any mileage you like but try to see if the maintenance matches the mileage.


What's the price range I should expect to look for? (I live in NY)
Totally up to you, depends on your budget.


If I get an automatic, does that make me a pussy? (I know it does, but is there anyone who has a gt4 auto)
Justifiable if you don't intend to do a swap, go to any track days, and see a lot of traffic. Again, just your preference.


What year's / trim does the GT-Four conversion work with? eg. ST, GT, Convertible? (Is there a combo that it is easiest/cheaper for)
Any year/trim. It bolts on just the same.


What are the parts needed to convert the hood, bumper and spoiler?
There's a how-to thread in the stickies in Exterior Styling, be sure to give that a read.


How much do the parts cost individually?
Depends on when you shop, how much patience you have, whether you find them in the US or need to be shipped from overseas, etc.


Where would I be able to acquire these parts?
Ebay is the easiest place.


Who would be able to do the conversion?
You can do it yourself. It's mostly nuts and bolts, but you have the option of drilling and welding one piece if you want a 100% OEM style conversion. The wing may require two holes to be drilled in your hatch and three holes to be filled, if you get a facelift Celica. Otherwise it's direct bolt-on for the pre-face hatch. Again, be sure to give the stickies a read so you know what is involved.


How much would labor cost around to install them?
Any dollar spent paying somebody else to do it is a dollar too much, in my opinion. It's relatively simple to install the front end. But to each his own, if you'd prefer to pay a body shop to do it.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but these questions have been answered dozens of times. There's a how-to thread with pictures in the Exterior Styling section. The stickies contain a wealth of information.

[Box]

Everything richee said. Also being in New York rust is a serious issue to look out for. The only other thing I can think to add is do you mean GT-Four as in cosmetics only, or also the drive-train? If yes to the second the GT-Four was only made with a manual transmission, and it'd be best to look for the GT as it uses the S family engine just like the GT-Four.

[Selly_Kuhman]

Thanks for the responses! To answer your question, I was going to make the cosmetic changes to start off, then save up for the engine swap. So I def will look into the GT model. What is the info I need to know about the "facelift" bar. I have read some people use it and some dont, but not sure where it comes from, and if it is necessary. Pretty much why would I want to use one? Also I found the bumper and hood for sale for $900. Is that a good price? Thanks for all your support! Will be sure to post pics once I get everything underway.

[Box]

Oh, the crash-bar and latch are different. I think people have modified the USDM one before, but don't hold me to it. I haven't looked in awhile but that seems a tad high for only the hood and bumper. Check around eBay to get a good idea.

[VavAlephVav]

Normally id say Yes, an automatic makes you a pussy. BUT if you have to drive that thing around in New York, New York well then I understand. I can't deal with traffic in a city of 1 million people, in a city of 8million id get an auto too.

And if you really want a Real gt4 that guy is selling one in Jersey. But he wants 12k for it. Search the for sale thread you'll see it

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Aug 26, 2014 - 4:17 PM

[Box]

The only excuse for an automatic is if you're missing your left leg.

[1994Celica]

Please don't get an auto. I have one and it kills all the fun of the car. If drive in heavy traffic then I could understand. Also for a gt4 front swap you need a different crash bar and frame rail adapters.

[Box]

Automatics are so boring, especially behind a meager amount of power.

This post has been edited by Box: Aug 26, 2014 - 5:28 PM

[Selly_Kuhman]

Manual it is. Screw the traffic. I was planning on checking out this 97 gt 5-speed tomorrow, but now I'm not sure after looking at the carfax... Post said 132k miles...report says 192. Post says no accidents...report says car was hit on the right side and was totaled. Here's the link if anyone has some input.

http://newjersey.craigslist.org/cto/4635952219.html

Here is another 1997 gt 5-speed which is a bit far, but idc if I have to drive hours to find a decent car. It has a lame green theme which will be instantly changed. 136k milles but I dont see any fog lights. I thought the 97 and up have those stock for the GT model. Also the stick shift looks a bit old. Is this an older year, or an ST? Would help a lot of anyone can confirm this before I spend $40 on a carfax report, or drive out there.

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/cto/4569343493.html



As for the GT-Four in Jersey for 12.5k, I would love to get that, but can only afford around 4k currently.

Also can you do the cosmetic and/or engine swap GT-Four conversion with a convertible GT ? I've never seen it done, so figured it's not compatible.

[richee3]

I'd skip that first one. Go with your gut feeling. The Carfax can sometimes miss accidents when the owners hide them, but it doesn't just make accidents up. The 192k mileage could have been a typo and they meant 129k, but salvaged title is salvaged title regardless of mileage. The second one claims to be a GT. The easiest exterior ways to tell are the 5 spoke rims, bigger exhaust tip, and rear disc brakes, but 1997 had a limited edition ST that had the GT brakes and wheels too. However, that car doesn't have the limited edition badges and the exhaust isn't stock so it's difficult to tell. It looks more like a GT than an ST though. The facelift bumper either had stock lights or plastic covers, and that car has neither so odds are the fogs were removed.

Read my previous response for the convertible GT4 conversion. There's a ton of information in the stickies. The engine bay is the same regardless of whether it's a convertible or not so the engine swap will be the same.

[Box]

Besides, if you want a 3S-GTE there was never an automatic ECU unless there's something outside of the Celica that's eluding me at the moment.

The convertible is the based on the coupe/Curren body, but the front end and drive-train of the GT-Four would be compatible.

The first one not matching with the report is somewhat concerning. If you want it I'd let the seller know when you see it in person, and see how they react. You should get a feel if it was an honest mistake or if they're trying to hide something. If you get the notion they're lying I'd just walk away. Even then I wouldn't pay much over $1,500 or so if it really has been salvaged.

The GT is supposed to have fog lights, they've been removed at some point. If the first one doesn't check out I'd keep looking.

This post has been edited by Box: Aug 26, 2014 - 9:10 PM

[VavAlephVav]

The 4 cylinder is definitely way quicker with the manual, especially the GT with a 4.17 diff gear.
Even at 65mph I can still accelerate nicely without even downshifting.

the black one sure doesn't look like she keeps the interior very clean for being "her baby" but that kind of thing is fixable

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Aug 26, 2014 - 10:02 PM

[njccmd2002]

questions..

If i am looking to get a celica to convert to a Half GT4.... mmmhhh.... I consider myself an amateur. assuming it includes engine

1. why would I get a low mileage celica, just to swap another engine, (a rolling chassis, will do fine)
2. high mileage, who cares, its getting another engine, and the poly bushing set is only 300 usd, that would revamp the suspension.


or are we talking just a front end conversion, (like plastic surgery), which is the way it seems you are going to, looking at responses....

if your goal is an engine swap, then look for a rolling shell, dont toss away any money on a low milage car, just to pull the engine out, and junk it.

to give you an idea of a 250k mile car with rust looks like see my thread...

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=91690

at the end, broke almost even selling it. because i could not get any return on the engine, i pulled out of it. but it gives you an idea.

first set a goal, then worry about a car...

if you have no goal in mind, then its difficult to find the project.... cant go buying expensive car, to just then toss engine out..

Its hard to tell you what car you need to buy, only you can make a decision.

first figure out if you can afford a swap, if you have a backup plan, in case you get stuck, or a friend that can assist.

I do the things my self, and learned it all in this forum. Im not a mechanic by trade, just a hobbyist with tools.

[Selly_Kuhman]

So I called out the guy on the accident and the miles. You dont have to read this, but for anyone who was curious how it went....I was nice about it and simply said

me: how many miles were there on it again?
seller: like 130 around
me: okay, because I'm looking at the car report and it says 192k
seller: nooo, it definitely doesn't have that much. It's my friends car and I know it's around 130
me: also hows the condition of the exterior/interior? Is there anything wrong I should know about before coming
seller: noo, it's fresh, inside and out.
me: What happened with the accident the car was in?
seller: noooo, there's never been an accident, there's only been one owner.
me: The report also says your friend took a drive to colorado a few years ago and the car was hit on the right side, and was considered totaled.
seller: Maybe he went to colorado, idk anything about an accident though, the car is in perfect condition, you didn't get the pics I sent your phone?
me: nope
seller: ohh i sent them from my sisters phone. I sent a ton!
me: well maybe my phone didnt get them yet, try sending them to my email
seller: ok ok sending them now

Well I still received no pics from him through phone or email. After the convo I texted him a pic of the report showing all the stuff I was talking about. No response. I was supposed to stop by at 5pm today, and he didn't even txt or call asking if I was still coming. Think that settles that...


As for the black 97 gt manual with the green rims... I got an email from the woman saying "I'm sorry I changed numbers the car blew up last week my husband is in the process of putting a new motor in it I blew a rod"

Should I rule this one out as well? Not sure what blowing a rod is, but I dont see why someone would be putting a new motor in a car they are selling for $2000.

[Box]

Slung a rod would be the proper term. I'd just keep shopping. The last you want to do is buy the wrong car because you didn't want to wait.

[Selly_Kuhman]

I appreciate the responses. They definitely give me some better insight as to what direction to head.

As for your question nj, I have $4000 to spend at the moment. My goal was to get a car that can get me to and from work (40miles round trip in traffic, about 40 to 50mins each way). I was looking to do the cosmetic gt-four change first after saving up and acquiring the parts. Then save up for the engine swap.

I only asked about the mileage because I would need it to last at least a year in case I dont get to the engine swap before then. I also figured (I could be totally wrong) that if a car had 250,000 miles on it, and I put in an engine that had 60,000, the rest of the parts would still have that 250k on it.

I'm almost finished reading through your thread btw, it is quite inspiring! I would like to do work myself, but since this would be my work car I cant afford to mess it up, or leave it disassembled. Also I dont have/cant afford tools... Your car looks identical to my old one! Thanks for the input and suggestions, and hope to get more advise from ya along the way.

[richee3]

I'd rule out the one with green rims as well. They're probably putting a junkyard engine in it, and who knows if he's ever done a swap before. $4,000 is plenty to find a clean 6th gen, so with some patience you should be able to find a clean one.

[VavAlephVav]

also you can use sanduskys search tool
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=93099
lets you search every craigslist in 5 states automatically

[Box]

Low 200K or less should be good. Condition of the car and how it's been taken care of is more important than how many miles are on it.

[Selly_Kuhman]

Awesome search tool...I ended up getting like 3 hours of sleep before I had to go to work in the morn thanks to it. I'm still having bad luck finding a 97-99 GT manual in decent condition. I've started looking at some nice MR2's and Tuscanis. Pls dont flame.lol

[Box]

Why does it have to be a '97-99? '96-99 is the same anyhow. '94-95 have the two post spoiler which is what the GT-Four uses.

[VavAlephVav]

yep the 94-94 is OBD1 and the best looking spoiler. at least I mean you cant get riser blocks or the TRD one until you get your turbo. and for God's sake don't put a park bench on it
but they don't have the foglights until 1996 me thinks. Also under the hood on the firewall is the Chassis number a real GT will start with ST204, the ST is AT200. that's the sure way to tell
if really is a GT or a conversion.

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Aug 28, 2014 - 8:07 PM

[VavAlephVav]

Awesome search tool...I ended up getting like 3 hours of sleep before I had to go to work in the morn thanks to it. I'm still having bad luck finding a 97-99 GT manual in decent condition. I've started looking at some nice MR2's and Tuscanis. Pls dont flame.lol

oh yeah this is gonna be my DD, later ill get an MR2 for a toy.
depending on how easily you can do the work or have somebody else do you might even be better off taking a cheap one and slapping a cheap 5s in it for now. I bought mine for $2000 and by the time ive rebuilt all the brakes, replaced the Ecu, the motor, struts and tires, over the period of a year I'll barely have $4500 in it.
and it will be a dependable DD for several years.
I just can't justify spending money on the body and paint yet. I still have to park it down by the University for 2 more years and if some kid Bashed my **** after I had it all painted and polished I'd be in a bunch of trouble because of what I'd do to him :S

[Selly_Kuhman]

I never noticed the 96+ has a different spoiler with the 3 posts...Does that mean you would need to replace the whole hatchback door if you were to get a 96+ model for the GT-Four spoiler conversion? I am actually looking at a 95 right now which I may pick up. Still deciding between a few. VavAleph, what does OBD1 mean when you were referencing the 94? Also what is a cheap 5s...lol

But don't worry I am anti-park bench. Thankfully I am finished with University and don't have to deal with douchey kids who think its funny to key cars, inhale dust cleaner, and drive 2mph past the buildings holding down their clutch while tapping the gas pedal. Here's my final few I'm deciding between if anyone has input. I'm pretty sure I'll go with the 95 Black though.

95' Celica GT 5spd - 184k - $3000- Clean report
http://newhaven.craigslist.org/cto/4633678451.html

97' Celica GT 5spd - 192k - $2500- "Total Loss" in report. Car looks mint though
http://newjersey.craigslist.org/cto/4635952219.html

99' Celica GT Conv 5spd - 156k- $2600 - Rear window wont go down, backlite half off, electronic top broken
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/4631951721.html

94' Celica GT 5spd - 136k - $700 - "Vehicle Scrapped" in report - Needs windshield, Hood, Airbags- Guy restored everything else it looks like in the pics...although the car is black and the fenders and bumper are silver
http://newjersey.craigslist.org/cto/4646403711.html

[Box]

You'd have to fill the holes for the 3 post and then drill out holes for the 2 post, better off just replacing the liftback.

OBDI and OBDII are the stages of computer diagnostics, OBDI cars have less emissions equipment and aren't as smart when it comes to self diagnosis. Generally in the states that require emissions testing OBDI is a huge benefit, cars made from 1996+ are OBDII.

If it were me I'd go for the '95 and try to get it for $2,500 or the '94 since it's cheap and you plan on replacing body panels anyhow.

This post has been edited by Box: Sep 2, 2014 - 11:24 PM

[VavAlephVav]

...well, you can get lucky with a 5s because there are lots of people who take it out just because they wanna get a 3sgte or something.
I just bought one for 350 but had to pay another couple hundred bucks to ship it, and a little more for clutch kit, timing kit ect. but its got less than 2 years on a new headgasket.
the big issue is the headgasket, like a lot of 90s 4 cylinders they used a crappy gasket from the factory. if you replace it with a multi layered steel, MLS, gasket its good but if its never been replaced it probably needs one.

the 95 looks nice but the only way it gets 40mpg is if it's an ST. I hate people who don't load lots of pics. if you're capable of doing most of the work yourself the 94 could be worth checking out.

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Sep 3, 2014 - 12:51 AM

[Selly_Kuhman]

The 94 dude is offering his car for $500 if anyone wants to pick it up. I got some pics of what it looks like now if you're curious.

I'm working on getting a ride out tomorrow to check out the 95. Talked to a mechanic in the area who said he will check it out for like $50 to make sure there's no hidden problems. Is there anything I should ask him to check that may be a problem for a car close to 200k miles?

Also, are the blinkers for the 96 the same as the 95? I may stop by a guy parting out his 96, but when I was looking for the clear blinkers on ebay along with the side markers. I know the truck tacoma or tundra, I forget which has the same ones, but I saw something where it only works for the 96+ celica models. Any ideas on where a 95 can get clear blinkers and side markers?

[Box]

The big thing on these cars is synchronizer grinding when downshifting into third and sometimes second. The rest are the usual things with a twenty year old car.

The front turn signals are different between the years. With the Tacoma/Tundra they're talking about the clear lenses for the door lights.

[Selly_Kuhman]

Thanks. So I will ask the mechanic to check that out. Along with the tranny, axles, and should i ask about the head gasket?

For the clear turn signals on the 95, this is all I could find. I didn't know there was a diff b/w the 95 and newer models for turn signals. Let me know if you know of any places I can find them. Along with the side markers. I did see the forum post on this, but seems the ones he found aren't around still.

Also I'm seeing a lot of facelift/prefacelift references, but don't fully understand what the difference is or how it will affect the GT-Four bumper conversion. If there is a thread explaining this, feel free to link it.

Not sure if this is related, but I do notice some of the GT-Four bumpers are flat, while others are rounded. I will look for pics, but I think the actual GT-Four bumper is round, while maybe the trd one or kit is flat? Can anyone clarify the difference if they know what I'm referring to. TY much

This post has been edited by Selly_Kuhman: Sep 3, 2014 - 7:28 PM

[Box]

The front bumper cover is styled differently, along with the rear spoiler. With doing the GT-Four conversion the front bumper cover is changed anyway.

[Selly_Kuhman]

Why are they different? I eventually want to convert the 95' to the round type. Is that possible? Please say yes...

Flat Examples








Round Examples







This post has been edited by Selly_Kuhman: Sep 3, 2014 - 8:04 PM

[1994Celica]

What do you mean by flat vs round? All those bumpers look the same to me... Either way the gt 4 bumper cover swap is possible. You either need to modify your crash bar or the gt4 crash bar to fit, or you can get frame rail adapters.

This post has been edited by 1994Celica: Sep 3, 2014 - 8:20 PM

[richee3]

The GT4 bumper stayed the same from 94-99. Never got a facelift. The only thing different in those pictures is the angle/perspective.

[Selly_Kuhman]

Thanks for the clarification. I been looking at so many pics I'm now seeing things. Anyways I got the 95' black GT...I was psyched... Had the mechanic check it out in the same town I got it in. He said there's some rust on the bottom and I just needed to change the rotors and the pads, which is one of the few things I can do on my own. So I got the car for 800 less than asking price, 2200 in total. I had an odd feeling after I saw he was talking to the repair shops owner saying how he just did construction on his friends basement.

I had it checked out today at my local mechanic and he said the car's a "flood car" and there's bad rust all over. He said the car was even floating at one point most likely. My stomach dropped when I heard that. He said things are rusted together so bad I wouldn't even be able to change the brakes myself since he's going to need to torch the calipers and other parts just to take them off. He said just by looking at it I'm going to need new break lines, calipers, rotors, pads, and he found a oil leak coming from the timing belt seal. He's in the process of finding out how much more I will need and the cost.

So there goes my extra $$ I had that I was going to put into the conversion most likely. Is this even savable/worth attempting the conversion on eventually? Or am I just getting the parts needed for the car to prolong its death?

This post has been edited by Selly_Kuhman: Sep 6, 2014 - 1:20 PM

[Box]

If it's a flood car talk to the seller about it, try and be polite about it. If they refuse to take it back tell them you'll be writing your Attorney General, and do such. There are laws protecting you from being sold a deathtrap, even from private sellers.

[Selly_Kuhman]

Talked to the seller, he said it's fine, just drive it and he spent the money and wont take it back. BS. Talked to the mechanic, without even checking the engine yet it's going to be over 2000 for parts and labor. Awesome... This is why I wish I knew more about cars and repairs. Anyone have a good site where I can start learning basics? Tired of overpaying for things I'm sure costs 1/4th of the cost, and just having to take mechanics' "word" for it.

This post has been edited by Selly_Kuhman: Sep 6, 2014 - 4:49 PM

[njccmd2002]

Yeah. This site is where u learn. Search and read. How do they know it was flooded. They just assumed?

You are in jersey where harsch winters take a toll in 20 year car. Flooding means water in the cockpit. Which means mold in seats and carpet. Can you check? Otherwise is winter rust. As a general rule i try not to buy a north car unless i see undercarriage.



Post pics of the rust. Post pics of the under strut area. Thats a common area that rusts. Sorry this happens. Male the best of it. Clean it. Sell it. And maybe take a loss....

[Box]

Write your Attorney General and get a letter from your mechanic.

My grandfather bought a truck that ended up with a cut frame that wasn't disclosed, wrote the Attorney General and they're making the seller cover the repairs.

[Selly_Kuhman]

Finally got "Rusty" back. Looked great on the outside and inside, but the bottom was a whole other story. My new 95 GT...yay...

[richee3]

Expensive... But hey, the car looks great!

[Selly_Kuhman]

Thanks! Yeah, I def missed having the Celica for a year.

On the way back from CT, I was letting my friend drive the car, while I was driving his. We stopped by NYC on the way back to get some food. At one point in slow moving traffic when I was driving behind him, I heard this younger guy say "AHH and old Celica!" Then ran up to the window and started talking to my friend about it. Then I heard his friend yell to him "Ask em' how much was it?!"

Then yesterday when I went to register the car at the DMV, the woman I was dealing with at the counter was like "OH a Celica!" Then she went on to say how she had an 82' Celica which had a truck engine in it and she would beat everyone in races back then. She was looking for another Celica also, and knew all the ones on CL and Autotrader that I was looking at. Then on the way out of the DMV I saw a MK4 Supra in the parking lot. Only see like 3 of those a year if I'm lucky.

Anyways, my plans for conversion are now backed up with all the unforeseen repair costs, so I am just looking to do some cheaper upgrades for the time being. First on the list, I'm going to try plastidip metalizer on my rims which are beat to hell. Then going to attempt the red-out on the tails. Will post progress in case anyone else on a tight budget is looking to do some cost efficient cosmetic changes.

This post has been edited by Selly_Kuhman: Sep 17, 2014 - 5:29 PM

[Box]

Well, at least you have it all straightened out and it's safe. I'm serious though about writing the Attorney General if you haven't already. Anyhow if you need help on things feel free to post separate topics.

[Selly_Kuhman]

Starting out with the painting the tails. Any idea how to get them to look like this? They look lighter in some areas. I'm wondering if he made them clear first, then did the red out after. It also looks like he made some areas darker than others by taping the lights in half. Maybe it's just how the light is reflecting off them...Anyone have an idea? Also I'm not sure where I got this pic from. It was in my pics folder from a few weeks ago and can't find what site it was taken from.

[Box]

The lights are on.

[VavAlephVav]

those look real nice though, you might be able to use a headlight buffer system and make them look sparkly, or maybe just bendover and get some brand new ones from Toyota.
but you could mask off the lenses and paint the black trim too.

[Nial]

The lights are on.

Also the photo has had some HDR filter applied.