 ST very slow, is it suppose to be slow or not?? |
 Feb 25, 2004 - 4:33 PM
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Enthusiast  Joined Feb 4, '04 From Tampa Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%)  |
I had a 87 ST, and that was a fast, zippy car. I had to sell it and now i bouht an 95 ST. I assumed it would be faster or at least the same speed. However it is slow, a 87 is much faster in accelaration. Do I have a probelm with the engine? Or is this just the speed of the 6th gen STs??
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Feb 25, 2004 - 4:54 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Sep 22, '03 Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
The 87 ST had a very different engine. I think it was still an "A" series engine, i am not sure but maybe a 4AFE.
The 95 ST was pretty much built as an economic car, so yeah its probably slower for that reason. |
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Feb 25, 2004 - 5:50 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Aug 29, '02 From ny to philly Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
your old car had this:
http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/3sfestats.htm your new car has this: http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/7afestats.htm |
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Feb 25, 2004 - 5:53 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Feb 4, '04 From Tampa Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Well why did Toyota downgrade to the 7afe?
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Feb 25, 2004 - 6:05 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Oct 22, '03 Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
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Feb 25, 2004 - 6:55 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
The 4th gen ST's had the 3sfe. I personally think they're a lot slower than 6th gen ST's... but that's my opinion. My ST is as fast as 6th gen GTs...
-------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Feb 25, 2004 - 7:05 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '03 From Vancouver, Canada! Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
right..... what mods?  i see that list..... you cant compare like that.... not fare to us non modded gt/gt-s now you need to think....if the gt had the same mods who would win? 
This post has been edited by wind: Feb 25, 2004 - 7:06 PM |
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Feb 25, 2004 - 8:53 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined May 22, '03 From NOVA Currently Offline Reputation: 16 (100%) |
 well i know the st is supposed to be slow, but lets remember the car isn't anything without a good driver.....like for instance with my practically stock at the time 96' ST. with nothing but a cold air and 17" rims(yea rims do nothing i know that) and really nice plugs....i abliterated a 7th gen. gt/gt-s (still not sure which one it was, but none the less he had a ton more mods on it then mine did) BUT the moral is that i CAN shift very well during a race....that freakin idiot couldn't shift to save his life so i won....so you can't compare car to car really...drivers matter too
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Feb 25, 2004 - 9:05 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '02 From Hecho en la Republica Dominicana/Living in NJ Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
i have to agree it's has to do more with the driver.... with my bone stock 95 ST (AT) i'm very quick off the line.. but thats just cause i know how to get all out of that engine and transmission. -------------------- |
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Feb 25, 2004 - 9:20 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Jul 12, '03 From Chatham, Ont Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Well there is a certain point where driving ability is going to become worthless. Basically with a good driver in an ST, you might keep up with a 130hp car that is being driven by a subpar driver.
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Feb 25, 2004 - 9:26 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Oct 1, '02 From Minnesota, USA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Even if he had crappy shifting, I promise it wasn't a GT-S. The vvtl-i, the lift adds so much. The redline is way high and the powerband is way up there too. Unless he had an autostick but you said he was shifting. You most likely beat a GT not a GT-s.
-------------------- 95 Toyota Celica GT
Dead for now --> Soon to have a 3S-GTE 02 WRX --> This is for speed - Borla Exhaust - TurboXS BOV - Custom CAI 02 Civic EX - MB Quart Reference 5.25" Components - Rockford MTX 8" Subs in the doors - Alpine Type S Rear Fills - 2x Alpine SWR-1042D Subs in a custom fiberglass box - Alpine F345 Amp for the front doors - Alpine M605 on each Type R - Phoenix Gold wiring - Alpine CDA-9855 Head Unit - Alpine Amp link - 2x Rockford Fosgate 1 Farad Caps - The best Viper 791 alarm install ever |
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Feb 25, 2004 - 9:31 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jun 2, '03 From Annandale VA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I actualy out drove a GT once too, I dono if they are that slow, or they the drivers we encountered sucked that bad
course ours was kinda a log run along a road with turns and stuff so who could handel best had alot to do with it.
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Feb 25, 2004 - 9:36 PM
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Enthusiast Joined May 22, '03 From NOVA Currently Offline Reputation: 16 (100%) |
ok so it must a been a gt, they sit at 160 HP...this guy had a full exhaust, and no doubt a lil more engine stuff to go along.....so i'm thinking the exhaust has to at least add 20hp so thats 180 HP bottom line.....i'm estimating this 7th gen was around 180-195HP...i dunno..but the only complaint against my ST is the freaking REDLINE how the heck do i get rid of it or make a switch to turn off my fule cut off....cause i got beat my a SVT focus just cause my redline was so low that he caugh back up when i shifted outta 1st into 2nd....thats where i lose races is cause the redline is too low
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Feb 25, 2004 - 10:28 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jul 12, '03 From Chatham, Ont Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Uhhh cough, I doubt it man, exhaust on a stock engine ads a cool sound and thats about it, and they sit at 130hp and thats with vvti, my moms matrix has the same engine and they arent very quick at all. The st as what 100hp? and less torque, its not going to beat much period with equal drivers.. This post has been edited by Uppitycracker: Feb 25, 2004 - 10:30 PM |
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Feb 26, 2004 - 12:18 AM
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Enthusiast Joined May 8, '03 From San Jose, CA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
7th gen Celica GT is 140hp stock. An exhaust ain't adding 20hp. 15% power gain with an exhaust on a 4cyl? Maybe with some stickers on there. A 96 ST has 105 HP stock. Let's add 8 years worth of wear and tear on the engine, and you're sub-100. Add your CAI and maybe you're at 100 again. Add your 2.5" exhaust to a 1.8L N/A engine and you're sub-100 again. Add heavy 17s and you slowed your car some more... plus any other visual mods you have on there weighing it down. If you were racing a 7th gen with 195HP you'd KNOW it -- with the ****tiest driver in the world, as long as he steps on the gas and made his shifts...he'd win. there is no way you'd take him, let alone obliterate him. My guess is he wasn't even racing. Sorry bro. - aba This post has been edited by abatardi: Feb 26, 2004 - 12:26 AM |
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Feb 26, 2004 - 12:29 AM
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Enthusiast Joined May 8, '03 From San Jose, CA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
the redline is there for a reason. so you don't blow up your engine when you start throwing shims out. Plus you aren't even making power that high (your peak power is at 5600 rpm). Why would you want to go even higher where the power just drops off faster? - aba |
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Feb 26, 2004 - 1:29 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined Dec 26, '02 From Alabama Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) |
and GT-S's normally make 160ish at the wheels...
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Feb 26, 2004 - 2:21 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Aye... however, their auto tranny gearing sucks ass, so they're only 17 second cars. Also note, there are slight tuning/ECU differences between the various versions of the 1zzfe. The celica would have probably the most tuned between the Corolla, Matrix, and MR-S. All of them, aside from the Matrix and Rolla have different HP ratings. A 7th Gen GT, I'd say, is slightly quicker than a 6th gen GT because of the engine design and how they deliver their power. The 5SFE's are pretty flat beyond 5k or so... As for my ST... heh... i'm not gonna make any crazy claims, but I did run a 16.7 (which is the rough average stock GT time) with bad tuning and exhaust leaks (one at the header and another at the muffler). Not making excuses, so I'll just post a timeslip perhaps in the near future after my exhaust leaks are fixed and the rain stops. I'm currently too busy. I also do have a readily available 5SFE powered car to compare against... so i'm not just making blank comparisons like most others... ;] -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Feb 26, 2004 - 10:40 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 24, '02 From Wirral, UK Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
It's not a slow car by any means.. I got done for 97.9 mph last year.. ( I had been doing way over that)...
my GT is faster thou - but only on 'private roads' |
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Feb 26, 2004 - 11:39 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Feb 4, '04 From Tampa Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Well...maybe ill have to give the 'ol ST a tune up and possibly replace the clutch. What else would you reccommend to get some lost HP back??
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Feb 26, 2004 - 5:49 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Feb 11, '04 From columbus, ohio Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
the 7th gen celica gt-s has 180 hp the matrix has different engines in certain levels the XRS matrix and pontiac vibe gt have the same engine as the celica gt-s and they all sit at 180 with but the high redline of the cars is ridiculous they are hard to beat cause they keep goin and never have to shift well hard to beat in an ST
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Feb 26, 2004 - 8:43 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
hehehe... nothing against you, but that was one big long run-on sentence. Some school perhaps? ;] Yeah... the power delivery of that engine is wayyy high, so in essence, the more you rev them, the more power you can make. That's the beauty of variable cam timing with LIFT. 2 cam profiles for the price of one. -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Feb 26, 2004 - 10:22 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Feb 11, '04 From columbus, ohio Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
sorry this forum is english 101
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Feb 26, 2004 - 10:43 PM
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 Administrator Joined Aug 23, '02 From Seattle, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 14 (100%) |
I know that my ST was slow. I ran a 17.7 at the track, but that was with low compression due to fried piston rings I believe, and with a clutch and synchros that were in poor shape.
-------------------- New Toyota project coming soon...
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Feb 27, 2004 - 2:13 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
at the flywheel... also, from a 4a-fe to a 7a-fe is an UPGRADE... they have identical heads, but the 7a-fe is a 1.8 over the 4a-fe's 1.6....... they are BOTH economical designs..... they both have similar blocks.... the 7a-fe has a bit higher torque & HP numbers, but not much... the only thing i can see difference is the newer they got the heavier they got (i'm assuming).... |
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Feb 27, 2004 - 2:56 AM
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Enthusiast Joined May 8, '03 From San Jose, CA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Not sure why people can't agree on this... 7th Gen Celica GT-S = 180 Flywheel HP 7th Gen Celica GT = 140 Flywheel HP It's right on toyota.com posted up there... check it out. - Aaron |
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Feb 27, 2004 - 3:08 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
& toyota is known for overstating HP.....
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Feb 27, 2004 - 3:54 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '02 From Hecho en la Republica Dominicana/Living in NJ Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
get rid of the AC -------------------- |
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Feb 27, 2004 - 11:40 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 29, '02 From ny to philly Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
true, but his 87 st came with a 3SFE which puts out 115 hp and 124 tq
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Feb 27, 2004 - 12:13 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Feb 4, '04 From Tampa Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
My friend has a 98 kia sephia bone stock, and his car is faster than my ST. Accelerates quicker, however top speed is lower.
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Feb 27, 2004 - 12:36 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 29, '02 From ny to philly Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
maybe their gearing is lower. because stats-wise the st has more torque and weighs a bit less. or your car could be defunct.
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Feb 27, 2004 - 12:48 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
 To the wheels. These things are anything but overstated... looking at the torque numbers... I'd say those were understated. This is WHP stock. -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Feb 27, 2004 - 3:58 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 26, '02 From Alabama Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) |
wow might that be the dyno chart for a GT-S???? At the wheels!!!????
ahhem, exactly. www.newcelica.org |
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Feb 27, 2004 - 5:05 PM
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Enthusiast Joined May 8, '03 From San Jose, CA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Thanks Kwanza for the dyno chart.
Toyota is not known for overstating HP that I've ever heard. Name a car that they overstated HP on. - Aaron |
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Feb 27, 2004 - 5:17 PM
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Administrator Joined Aug 23, '02 From Seattle, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 14 (100%) |
The AE101 Corolla Levin with the 4A-GE is pretty over-rated.
-------------------- New Toyota project coming soon...
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Feb 27, 2004 - 7:53 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '03 From Vancouver, Canada! Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
that dyno is impressive.... look at the jump at 6000rpm.... thats huge it jumped almost 30 hp and after 6000 it went up to 170 quick.... wow
but... ahem.... where the hell is the torque....thats pathetic.... 
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Feb 27, 2004 - 9:49 PM
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Enthusiast Joined May 8, '03 From San Jose, CA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
yeah, haha. 60 ft lbs of torque at 3k. That's tough. - Aaron |
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Feb 27, 2004 - 11:49 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
That's the trade off. True all-motor engines have very crappy low-end torque. They're not designed to be there. Even with the cam timing and lift and such, it's hard to design the motors to spit out a ton of low-end torque with the very high-end power. Turbos and such can do it with ease, but that also brings in a new list of problems and maintence. Of course, larger displacement would also, but that will defeat the purpose of anwell-tuned import motor. Might as well muscle with the domestics. Honestly speaking though (IMO), the trade off is well worth the high-end power. As for the overstating HP ratings... Toyota actually does it quite a bit with their n/a engines. All of the 4AGE motors were overstated in one way or another. Most of them make only 100 hp or so at the crank, aside from the high-comp redtop which makes roughly 120-130 hp. The 20 valve, as mentioned, only makes 10hp or so more than the redtop. The only cool thing about it, is the sound of individual throttle bodies and the being it has 20 VALVES! The only reason the 20 valve was rated at 160hp was to compete against Civic SiR's and Cerios in Japan. Even the 3SGE's were highly overstated. 2nd gens were rated at 160-170 hp while only making 140-150. The 3rd gens rated at 170-180 only pushed 160-170... and of course, the Beams rated at 200-210 when they're actually only around 180-190. The only major difference betweens the beams and the 3rd gen 3SGE, aside from the pretty valve cover and intake manifold, was the compression was raised slightly, and VVTi was added (along with DLI and other little electrical goodies). Even still, VVTi only imporved throttle response and low-end response. It didn't greatly increase horsepower at all. All of the 3SGE's made around 135-150 ft lbs (seems like a lot... but they made that around 5k rpms) of torque while the 4AGE's made around 100-130. This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Feb 27, 2004 - 11:49 PM -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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