5SGTE, Anybody try this/pros cons Options

[Nemises]

Has anybody here attempted to match the 5SFE bottom end with a 3SGTE head. I found this link some guys building one.
http://www.jimsnodgrass.com/enginebuildup.htm

[Doge]

I know for a fact that the 5s block AND crank are stronger and more "beefy." And you're right about the flywheel... you use the 165 flywheel only if you have AWD... in which case you DO use it (or a fidanza). Mabye you dont know but the 165 flywheel IS a 6 bolt pattern... the 185/205 flywheels are 8 bolt. Want proof?
My "not as hard as you think" comment was aimed solely on the task of mating the 3s head to a 5s block. There is no real custom stuff you have to do... it will literally bolt on givin the water jacket holes match up. Notice in my post I said "Doing this for a celica would basically be the same process as a 3s swap..."

And you DO NOT have to have a certain year to mate it... some years have the water passages line up.. some years dont... if it doesnt you have to match them by comparing the head gasket openings to the block and drilling passages where necessary.

You wanna see some pages that cover this topic that describe exactly what i just wrote? Ok here you go... I suggest you read up.

5sfte 1

The casting quality of the block was amazing. Where every 3sgte Ive seen had rough inside walls with casting crap EVERYWHERE... the 5s block was clean and smooth and consistant.. which would promote oil drainage a lot. Not to mention make cracks and fractures less likely... and also reduces the need for deburring.
And the block is BEEFY. Everywhere you look, the block has more "meat" than the 3s block.. its just... beefcake.

5sgte 2

Originally posted by Whitemr291
alright, well how "hard" is it really to put a 3s head on a 5s block, reading over it, it seems really hard  .
-Terry

Very easy. I have built two, one a 2.2L with the 5S block and crank, the other a 2.1L with the 5S block and 3S crank. If you're lucky you don't need to drill coolant passages.. other than that it is a matter of a simple engine rebuild and sourcing the pistons. Chrisk takes care of the pistons.

5sgte 3

The flywheel from an ST165 (All trac Celica, 1st gen) should be used so you can use the turbo tranny.

3sgte Power Primer (the holy grail for 3s info)

the 5S crankshaft is a monster and can be used as is

...I could go on forever...


Next time dont be an asshole when you pick a post apart... believe it or not but some people are as smart as you. And I'm sorry for being an asshole.

This post has been edited by Doge: Nov 15, 2004 - 4:16 PM

[Kwanza26]

I know for a fact that the 5s block AND crank are stronger and more "beefy."  And you're right about the flywheel... you use the 165 flywheel only if you have AWD... in which case you DO use it (or a fidanza).  Mabye you dont know but the 165 flywheel IS a 6 bolt pattern... the 185/205 flywheels are 8 bolt.  Want proof?

I stand corrected on this point. The two St165's I've worked on in the past both had 8 bolt flys... but they also did wear later model engines.

My "not as hard as you think" comment was aimed solely on the task of mating the 3s head to a 5s block.  There is no real custom stuff you have to do... it will literally bolt on givin the water jacket holes match up.  Notice in my post I said "Doing this for a celica would basically be the same process as a 3s swap..."

How many people do you know do a 5SGTE swap and then define it as "easy" based on bolting on a head? Misleading dude. You did correct yourself later on... but that makes it very misleading to just the average reader. As far as the blocks go... there are several generations of the S series blocks with different water jackets (as you said). Get the one that works... Why bother mentioning drilling water jacks for the one that doesn't work?

And you DO NOT have to have a certain year to mate it... some years have the water passages line up.. some years dont... if it doesnt you have to match them by comparing the head gasket openings to the block and drilling passages where necessary.

I'm not 100% certain... but the differences were due to an update. They can be based roughly on what year the car was produced...

You wanna see some pages that cover this topic that describe exactly what i just wrote?  Ok here you go... I suggest you read up.

Only problem is... those are relative opinions. Are you telling me you believe EVERYTHING these guys say based on their opinions? I'll tell you the very simple reason why the 5S block is slightly thicker. Till then, I suggest you be your own person and not take everyone else's ideas as the gospel truth... not even mine.

First off... design improvements were made in the 5S series blocks (hence 2 gens of 5S blocks). The guy specifically compares his 5S block pulled from a 94 Celica, which were of the redesigned 5S block. It would be safe to say... that's a bad comparison because you're comparing a newer designed motor to an older designed motor (1st/2nd gen 3SGTEs were nearly identical in the bottom). That's not accurate. If he would have compared a 1994 5SFE block to a 1994 3SGTE (3rd gen)... I'll bet you the same design process went into both of those blocks and they both would have had the same attention to detail. This only refers to manufacturing improvements... not strength.

As far as strength goes... the 5S block is an over-squared design. 87mm bore vs. 91mm stroke. That alone... is the reason why the crank looks beefier. Oversquared designs emphasize on torque... to make torque, increase stroke length. The drawback is... the taller the stroke length, the farther the piston has to travel during stroke cycles. The most stress occurs during the combustion stroke... when the piston gets pushed down putting a ton of strain on the crank. The bigger the stroke... the more the strain. That's the reason why the 5S crank looks so much beefier. The 3SG crank is designed to rev. It's a perfect squared design and can handle upwards of 10,000 rpms (Beams race versions)... Being it's a squared design, the 3SG crank does not need to be built bigger. Let's put it this way... the 5S crank is strong for its stroker purpose... the 3SG crank is built for its squared balance. That doesn't make one stronger than the other. Let's say if the 5S crank was the same stroke as the 3S crank, yet it maintained its size... then it would possibly be stronger... but that's not the case. It's built bigger because it has to maintain a taller stroke. Get what I'm saying?

As for the block... it's built bigger. The 5S block has a taller deck and thicker walls designed and built for its purpose. It can potenially be bored out larger than a 3S block... but that doesn't make it stronger. Bigger = stronger is based on opinion. Composition, density, amougst other things determines the strength of the block. The size doesn't really matter. If a well composed alluminum block (SR20 for example) can be designed as strong as an iron block (3SGTE)... it's more about composition and desnity than thickness and size. That leaves to question whether or not being bigger and thicker actually makes the 5S block stronger than a 3S block. I'll assure you... different generation blocks are very different in terms of density and composition. Nearly every single model of the 4AGs had differently composed blocks. 20V blocks are generally very dense compared to its 7 rib 16V counterpart. Check the part numbers... all different.

Originally posted by Whitemr291
alright, well how "hard" is it really to put a 3s head on a 5s block, reading over it, it seems really hard  .
-Terry
Very easy. I have built two, one a 2.2L with the 5S block and crank, the other a 2.1L with the 5S block and 3S crank. If you're lucky you don't need to drill coolant passages.. other than that it is a matter of a simple engine rebuild and sourcing the pistons. Chrisk takes care of the pistons.

Opinion... It would be easy for me cause I have the tools and expertise... but not for everyone. Don't take people's opinion as the truth. If it were so easy... how come nobody here has built one?

Next time dont be an asshole when you pick a post apart... believe it or not but some people are as smart as you.  And I'm sorry for being an asshole.
[right][snapback]207039[/snapback][/right]

I wasn't trying to be an asshole... and I'm still not. I'm just very forward. You're arguing based on opinion... and not even really your opinion... OTHER's opinions. I'm not second guessing them either... but there are simply too many variables. A 5SGTE build emphasizes on torque. IMO, the 3SG blocks are much tougher than the 5S block simply because the 3SGTE blocks are PROVEN race bred motors. The 5SFE was designed to power economy cars. That being said... I doubt Toyota would make the 5S block out of super dense materials or anything of the sort. Toyota rarely ever overbuilds their engines, let alone a 5SFE. The advantage of a 5SGTE build is NOT to increase strength... but to increase displacement and torque. That's what makes sense to me... and I'm sorry for soundling like an asshole. I know people interpret me like that cause I don't sugar coat things... that's all good. I hold nothing against you.