Gen3 3SGTE Dyno Run, Guess my numbers! Options

[CilverSeliST205]

On either the 20th or 27th I am going to do a couple of pulls on a dynojet, so I would like for you guys to guess the results... so:

Altitude: 176meters above the sea level, predicted temp. ~ 65-75F

POWER MODS:
'95 Gen III 3S-GTE swap
99' Solara v6 tranny
Precision turbo FMIC (don't know the dimensions but i know its bar&plate)
2.5" mandrel bent IC piping
Apex'i intake
3" catless downpipe (xs power.... ewww....)
3" catless custom mandrel bent exhaust (or DG exhaust)
Magnaflow muffler
Blitz DSBC

I am going to do 2 pulls, one on stock boost ~14 psi and one at 17 psi, so guess for each pull.

I do not have the boost controller and muffler yet, so if anyone wants to advise against, or recommend something better than blitz dsbc or magnaflow muffler, please do so quickly before I order them...
Ill post the graphs and runfiles right after the dyno session

[lagos]

when u go to the dyno, can you make sure they give you the run file, and can you post it here? also, make sure they log your a/f with a wide band o2 sensor. id love to see how the 2nd and 3rd gen swaps compare on a dyno.


my guess ... youll make around 260-280 hp...somwhere in that ballpark.

[jgreening]

when u go to the dyno, can you make sure they give you the run file, and can you post it here? also, make sure they log your a/f with a wide band o2 sensor. id love to see how the 2nd and 3rd gen swaps compare on a dyno.


my guess ... youll make around 260-280 hp...somwhere in that ballpark.

If you are talking whp with a ct20b, I say you are way off. I will guess 240whp at 17psi.

[CilverSeliST205]

when u go to the dyno, can you make sure they give you the run file, and can you post it here? also, make sure they log your a/f with a wide band o2 sensor. id love to see how the 2nd and 3rd gen swaps compare on a dyno.


my guess ... youll make around 260-280 hp...somwhere in that ballpark.

If you are talking whp with a ct20b, I say you are way off. I will guess 240whp at 17psi.

Why such low estimate Jay ? My only worry is knock related retard coz of 93 octane on jdm ecu maps... should i add xylene/toulene/race gas for the dyno run? or is that cheating

I found a couple of dyno pulls of gen3 + BPU + pump gas

http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=171601
93 octane, mbc, apexi intake and open 3" DP
263 hp 265 ft/lb tq @ 18 psi
239 hp 246 ft/ lb tq @ 16
thats with ignition problems...
other guy with similar mods got 235whp with stock boost and healthy ignition

http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=45631
stock ecu, pump gas, bpu
229hp 221tq @ 10 psi (how can you get 10 psi when WG is on like 14psi actuator ????)
252hp 274tq @ 16 psi

My guess is 255-265 whp

[jgreening]

when u go to the dyno, can you make sure they give you the run file, and can you post it here? also, make sure they log your a/f with a wide band o2 sensor. id love to see how the 2nd and 3rd gen swaps compare on a dyno.


my guess ... youll make around 260-280 hp...somwhere in that ballpark.

If you are talking whp with a ct20b, I say you are way off. I will guess 240whp at 17psi.

Why such low estimate Jay ? My only worry is knock related retard coz of 93 octane on jdm ecu maps... should i add xylene/toulene/race gas for the dyno run? or is that cheating

I found a couple of dyno pulls of gen3 + BPU + pump gas

http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=171601
93 octane, mbc, apexi intake and open 3" DP
263 hp 265 ft/lb tq @ 18 psi
239 hp 246 ft/ lb tq @ 16
thats with ignition problems...
other guy with similar mods got 235whp with stock boost and healthy ignition

http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=45631
stock ecu, pump gas, bpu
229hp 221tq @ 10 psi (how can you get 10 psi when WG is on like 14psi actuator ????)
252hp 274tq @ 16 psi

My guess is 255-265 whp

Don't get me wrong, I hope you do better and wish you well. Most of all, have fun. However, you asked me to make guess, and I did. The basic reason is that the ct20b cannot overcome the fall-off due to stock cams. Getting above 260whp on a stock cam / stock turbo 3sgte is difficult without tuning. On a gen II, its very difficult to get over 240whp due to the stock fuel maps - although Jeff and some others on mr2oc.com have done it. Its a little easier on a gen III because every breathing modification you put on makes your car run leaner and that adds power. It also increases risk of blowing the engine if you are not tuning or at least monitoring the a/f ratio. Which leads me to my last point: do not do a dyno run on a modded gen III without a wideband hooked up and being prepared to cut the run if you go over 12 a/f ratio. Good luck.

Jay

[CilverSeliST205]

Don't get me wrong, I hope you do better and wish you well. Most of all, have fun. However, you asked me to make guess, and I did. The basic reason is that the ct20b cannot overcome the fall-off due to stock cams. Getting above 260whp on a stock cam / stock turbo 3sgte is difficult without tuning. On a gen II, its very difficult to get over 240whp due to the stock fuel maps - although Jeff and some others on mr2oc.com have done it. Its a little easier on a gen III because every breathing modification you put on makes your car run leaner and that adds power. It also increases risk of blowing the engine if you are not tuning or at least monitoring the a/f ratio. Which leads me to my last point: do not do a dyno run on a modded gen III without a wideband hooked up and being prepared to cut the run if you go over 12 a/f ratio. Good luck.

Jay

Very valuable info, learned something new today...
Why breathing mods make the mixture leaner in gen3? is it because of MAP sensor based fueling? I know oem ecu likes to run really rich on boost in mid-top end, but if I see my A/F too lean to be on the safe side then what can I do to add more fuel? FPR, piggyback fuel controller ? or is EMS the only way ? Also how can I shift the boost cut a bit higher than 17-18 psi on a MAP setup?

[jgreening]

Why breathing mods make the mixture leaner in gen3? is it because of MAP sensor based fueling?

I know oem ecu likes to run really rich on boost in mid-top end, but if I see my A/F too lean to be on the safe side then what can I do to add more fuel? FPR, piggyback fuel controller ?

or is EMS the only way ?

Also how can I shift the boost cut a bit higher than 17-18 psi on a MAP setup?

Yes. A map system adds fuel based on air pressure - not flow like an AFM equipped Gen II 3sgte. Thus, when you increase flow with a breathing modification like a new exhaust, the pressure could theoretically stay the same (or even be reduced) which would tell the ECU to keep the fuel the same (or reduce it) but the air content in the mixture will be much higher - causing a more lean condition. Ricky B from MR Controls reports that he has seen many modded Gen III set ups that run on the ragged edge of safety. The bottom line is be careful, and be smart.

Yes.

No, its not the only way but it is the best way.

I am pretty sure you can get a FCD for a gen III. Some other folks on here will know for sure though. If you get an EMS, you can set fuel cut at anything you want including eliminating it all together if you want.

[CilverSeliST205]

Yes. A map system adds fuel based on air pressure - not flow like an AFM equipped Gen II 3sgte. Thus, when you increase flow with a breathing modification like a new exhaust, the pressure could theoretically stay the same (or even be reduced) which would tell the ECU to keep the fuel the same (or reduce it) but the air content in the mixture will be much higher - causing a more lean condition.

I have hard time understanding how you can increase flow without increasing the pressure? Isn't pressure directly proportional to flow? For example, if i get rid of an restrictive intake in favor of a short ram i will increase the flow -> flowing more air into the mani -> producing more manifold pressure ?? Enlighten me please

Another thing is FCD, how would such thing work on a gen3 ? It can't just cut off MAP signal, and altering it would cause very dangerous mixture leaning...

[jgreening]

I have hard time understanding how you can increase flow without increasing the pressure? Isn't pressure directly proportional to flow? For example, if i get rid of an restrictive intake in favor of a short ram i will increase the flow -> flowing more air into the mani -> producing more manifold pressure ?? Enlighten me please

Because restrictions allow pressure to build more easily. When you remove a restriction, you will have more flow at the same pressure. Make sense?

[CilverSeliST205]

Because restrictions allow pressure to build more easily. When you remove a restriction, you will have more flow at the same pressure. Make sense?

I see, a restriction prevents pressure from escaping, therefore restrictions allow pressure to build more easily... Makes sense...

But isn't MAP + IAT sensors capable of precisely calculating the ammount of air molecules entering the combustion chamber ? fuel injection is adjusted accordingly pressure and temperature of intake air, how does more flow alter the ammount of oxygen entering combustion chamber per cycle ?
Sorry for bombing you with questions

[phattyduck]

But isn't MAP + IAT sensors capable of precisely calculating the ammount of air molecules entering the combustion chamber ? fuel injection is adjusted accordingly pressure and temperature of intake air, how does more flow alter the ammount of oxygen entering combustion chamber per cycle ?
Sorry for bombing you with questions

Actually, a AFM or MAF based system is MUCH better at measuring/calculating air flow into and out of the motor. (as it is measureing the actual mass (AFM) or flow (MAF) of the air going past the measuring device) MAP based ECUs are cheaper and allow for bigger power as their is no restriction on the intake for a measuring device.

A MAP+IAT based fueling system requires an assumtion of the volumetric efficiency of the motor (VE) to calculate theoretical airflow through the motor (volume of air sucked into each cylinder per intake stroke). Any time you do a modification that allows the motor to breath more easily (intake, porting+polishing, exhaust, turbo, etc.), more air flows through the motor at a give intake manifold pressure. Since the ECU has no easy way of knowing that the VE has changed, it assumes an incorrect airflow which leads to incorrect fueling which leads to possible *boom*

-Charlie

(so, lower exhaust back pressure means that more exhaust can escape through the exhaust ports, leading to more air being pulled into the cylinder on the intake stroke for the same manifold pressure... a better intercooler means that the there is less pressure lost across it so that the pressure at the outlet of the turbo is lower compared to the intake manifold - less boost at the outlet of the turbo leads to less exhuast back pressure at the exhaust ports (turbo doesn't work as hard) which leads to more air flowing though the motor at a given manifold pressure. get the idea?)