does the year 2010 mean alot to the ST205 owner? (it should) Options

[6gtfour]

The ST205 gen3 MAP sensored 3SGTE is a decent engine. It puts out ~ 220 to 230 all wheel (dynojet) horse power and about 215 pound force feet of torque in stock trim. Its fuel consumption is respectable especially off boost and generally it will take you from point A to point B as a very reliable fast cruiser without any complaints. If that makes you happy then read no further.

This is a thread for those of you who are more inclined to believe that we are not alone in the universe; for the type of tuner who does not accept that the earth is round or the sky is blue just because we've been told that all our lives so we continue to believe it without questioning it and without any proof.

Ever since I was born My family has always driven toyotas. I have an undying love for toyotas even though they are currently outclassed in the performance arena by almost every other manufacturer. I have actually written emails to toyota headquarters concerning their intentions for future performance cars and a possibility of the return of the Supra. Their response was basically that toyota is no longer intent on high performance road car production but more interested in eco friendly transport alternatives. In short toyota has gone green.

The obvious question now follows... So... what about die hard toyota performance fans? How do we keep up with newer offerings from other manufacturers who continue to research and develop high performance cars while toyota's performance era struggles to keep up with newer technology? Is it possible to compete with the mitsubishi evo X or subaru's new STI impreza hatch with the likes of the celica ST205?


Well I can assure you that the limiting factor in attempting to find an answer to that question will ultimately depend on what you are inclined to accept or believe. I certainly do not have the answers and while I can assure you that the 3SGTE is outclassed by most of today's factory engines I firmly believe that with a slight adjustment in expectations from this toyota performance platform many of the current beliefs about this widely discredited motor can be proven otherwise.

I've started beginning to observe what sets other manufacturers apart in 2010. What are the targets they set for full production performance cars, some of their goals and expectations. The result has been a readjustment in my own goals and expectations for my ST205 as unrealistic and impossible as they may seem.

2010/11 OEM factory equipped performance cars currently differ from the ST205 celica in several ways including the following:

1) better in cabin road noise control
2) newer/better standard driver interactive electronics
3) navigation
4) multi speaker high quality surround sound
5) electronic trip meter derived stats for things like fuel consumption and expected remaining fuel supply mileage
6) engine condition statistical data such as external ambient air temp, fuel tank meter readout (ltrs/gals)
7) service interval notifications
8) oil level, coolant level, windshield wash bottle level dashboard display indicators
9) better suspension and handling
10 better fuel economy
11) better idle characteristics
12) shorter braking distances
13) significantly higher levels of overall reliability
14) smoother ride quality with less vibration from engine and drive train.
15) better tires
16) better visibility through xenon discharge technology (sometimes steerable and self leveling)
17) higher horse power outputs
18) smoother power delivery usually through newer cam phasing technologies
19) significantly better aesthetics
20) ergonomically superior

Not hardly an exhaustive list but you begin to get the picture. Toyota performance cars are being left behind in more ways than just a quartermile time or highway run.
It should be easy enough to fix the quartermile time or highway runs by dialing up the boost by whatever the currently employed approach is but It will take some doing to fix the actual gap that exists in a broader sense.

If it doesn't bother you then it doesn't bother you but I am never happy when I realize that a luxury SUV such as the Audi Q7 will simply walk away from the ST205 on the highway without so much as a grunt from its engine or even a puff of smoke. All the while having the windows rolled up and possibly not even realizing that I was trying my darndest to keep up with it. In all fairness to the ST205 it is in fact electronically speed limited but I'm just making a general observation.
In the year 1997 when the car was manufactured all it would have taken was a gentle hint of throttle opening at that speed to disappear from the horizon of any approaching average luxury SUV that was available then.

I have been immersed in this school of thought even before the year 2010 as I have always been fascinated by the irony that OEM ECU tuning is usually light years ahead of any aftermarket ECU's programmable options. I would have thought that as good as the OEM is since they must work within a production budget the aftermarket tuner should always be best since the only consideration is performance.

When Nissan launched the GTR R35 It finally dawned on me what was missing. There is very little and usually no focus on street performance tuning from the aftermarket. The aftermarket is saturated with full race spec tuner hardware and the other side of the coin involves very expensive "ricerware" that is more about shiny polished chrome finishes and bright colored silicone hoses etc than it is about performance. Nissan was able to beat all 3 previous versions of the skyline in every corner on a circuit test in japan using a stock R35 even though the R32 R33 and R34 skylines were full tuner vehicles ranging between 400 and 600 horse power. The R35 GTR is also probably heavier than the production machinery that built it. So one can't help but ask how on earth did they get it to be that fast?

Well while you may be thinking that the average ST205 owner does not have access to the nurburgring race circut for testing and also that Nissan's research and development budget for the R35 is wildly beyond the dreams of most lotto winners, there are a few subtle factors that affect the private tuner with equal impact as the most wealthy car manufacturer. Nissan does not have a single red or blue greddy or hks colorful silicone hose under the hood of that car. They did not spend even 10 seconds considering what tone or pitch the blow off valve should make when it dumps air into the atmosphere. Their goals were easily outlined for them by setting an overall goal of achieving a certain lap time on the nurburgring. Anything that affected that goal negatively had to go. And at the same time several other things that were previously frowned upon were utilized such as the weight of the car because at the end of the day the test results were there to prove that the goal was achieved.

If this same approach is used when considering modifications to be done to the ST205 It should be only a matter of time before people start wondering if toyota has reintroduced a limited production run of a higher powered faster celica ST205 in an attempt to show that they are still heavyweights in the performance arena.

[mrgt4]

i have to say i dissagree with you on many many accounts... and heres why..


1) better in cabin road noise control
a... its a sports car, really... who cares? if you do, then buy an audi

2) newer/better standard driver interactive electronics
a.... again... electrics= more things to go wrong, il take being a good driver over fancy yaw diffs in evos etc..

3) navigation
a... its a called a tomtom, nav = more weight = pointless waste of money.

4) multi speaker high quality surround sound
a.... my st205 does have the multi speaker component system, yours obviously has the 4 speakers, not 8

5) electronic trip meter derived stats for things like fuel consumption and expected remaining fuel supply mileage
a... with less than 25mpg i dont want to see how fast my money dissapears thanks.

6) engine condition statistical data such as external ambient air temp, fuel tank meter readout (ltrs/gals)
a... again, all pointless crap for a sportscar, all i want is water and oil temp and oil pressure thankyou

7) service interval notifications
a... you should have the brains to know when to service your car if you own one of these.. if not, sell the car to someone who does.

8) oil level, coolant level, windshield wash bottle level dashboard display indicators
a... again, if your too lazy to use your eyes, you shouldnt own the car.

9) better suspension and handling
a... what planet are you on? with some good struts the gtfour handles like its on rails, ive out classed multiple r34 gtr and r33 gtr on the ring and donington park and bedford

10 better fuel economy
a... what do you expect, a 2l with anywhere upto 280bhp out the factory? if you want economy or moan about fuel consumption, buy a ford fiesta

11) better idle characteristics
a... what are you on? mine idles smooth at 750rpm, if yours doesnt, its crap

12) shorter braking distances
a.... on drugs or something? the st205 has awesome brakes, good pads like carbotechs will stop you dead far quicker than any evo or poohbaru

13) significantly higher levels of overall reliability
a... its a toyota, ive owned it 4 years and have had only regular maintanence that i would do on any other car....

14) smoother ride quality with less vibration from engine and drive train.
a.. its a sports car, built for speed with a little comfort, you dont like, buy a boring car

15) better tires
a... its called a tyre shop

16) better visibility through xenon discharge technology (sometimes steerable and self leveling)
a... buy a hid kit, its not like they had those lights back then, look at the r32 and r33 liners, they are the same crap headlights

17) higher horse power outputs
a... it did, it was far more than the 240 quoted as proven by multiple dyno's

18) smoother power delivery usually through newer cam phasing technologies
a... what isnt smooth, i get very smooth power and usable boost of 1.2bar from 3600rpm

19) significantly better aesthetics
a.. you need to go to specsavers, the st205 is a fantastic looking car and doesnt look a day old.

[6gtfour]

i have to say i dissagree with you on many many accounts... and heres why..


1) better in cabin road noise control
a... its a sports car, really... who cares? if you do, then buy an audi
If you read the first paragraph carefully I wouldn't be here trying to explain the validity of this

2) newer/better standard driver interactive electronics
a.... again... electrics= more things to go wrong, il take being a good driver over fancy yaw diffs in evos etc..
I'll fancy my chances against carlos sainz driving a stock ST205 if you gave me an evo IX

3) navigation
a... its a called a tomtom, nav = more weight = pointless waste of money.
If you think the weight added because of a sat nav can really affect the performance of your car that's quite funny to me

4) multi speaker high quality surround sound
a.... my st205 does have the multi speaker component system, yours obviously has the 4 speakers, not 8
I think you've lost sight of the purpose of the list. I'm comparing standard equipment on new sports cars to the standard equipment on the ST205 in bone stock trim and the premium sound was an option.

5) electronic trip meter derived stats for things like fuel consumption and expected remaining fuel supply mileage
a... with less than 25mpg i dont want to see how fast my money dissapears thanks.
If you can't see the benifit of such a feature thats fine just keep in mind OEM's the world over got their bean counters to sign off on spending the extra money making the feature standard in most of todays cars. That should tell you lots about where your thinking measures up in this era

6) engine condition statistical data such as external ambient air temp, fuel tank meter readout (ltrs/gals)
a... again, all pointless crap for a sportscar, all i want is water and oil temp and oil pressure thankyou
drain 3/4 of your engine's oil and go through a few corners really hard in high boost. While your engine builder sources parts for your rebuild It should give you enough time to realize that not because the dipstick read full when you left to go on your journey does it mean that it will remain full until your destination. too bad your oil pressure and temp gauge didn't have an oil starvation warning light huh? Also bear in mind that water temperature readings are significantly lower in air pockets( or bubbles of steam) than in actual engine coolant. Seen a head gasket you want to upgrade to recently? How about a cracked cylinder? does that turn you on much?

7) service interval notifications
a... you should have the brains to know when to service your car if you own one of these.. if not, sell the car to someone who does.
no need to be harsh this concept speaks to what is termed "gentle reminders" we can all use them from time to time.

8) oil level, coolant level, windshield wash bottle level dashboard display indicators
a... again, if your too lazy to use your eyes, you shouldnt own the car.
well we've already delt with this. I hope you realize now the gravity of the impact that not having them can have. Ever been caught behind a truck after a shower of rain just let up and realized that your windshield wash bottle was empty? that mucky roadspray really gets to you huh?

9) better suspension and handling
a... what planet are you on? with some good struts the gtfour handles like its on rails, ive out classed multiple r34 gtr and r33 gtr on the ring and donington park and bedford.
well if you are referring to upgraded items when you say "some good struts" then you embrace the fact that i'm saying in factory trim the ST205 is no longer on par with newer sports cars in the handling department. I drive one that's well maintained but bone stock and in discussions with a rally suspension engineer about how to improve the handling he referred to the ST205 as "an understeering pig" at high speeds.

10 better fuel economy
a... what do you expect, a 2l with anywhere upto 280bhp out the factory? if you want economy or moan about fuel consumption, buy a ford fiesta
I don't even understand what your point is here and if you're simply saying that better fuel consumption is a silly objective then lets agree to disagree

11) better idle characteristics
a... what are you on? mine idles smooth at 750rpm, if yours doesnt, its crap
in this instance what i should have said is better idle in spite of higher horse power outputs. in other words find me an ST205 that puts out 400 horses to the wheels that idles smoothly at 750 rpm or even 850 for that matter. Newer sports cars are light years ahead in terms of high horse power engines with smooth idle characteristics. As a matter of fact they actually idle better than our now dwarfed ~200 horse power motors because of better individual cylinder combustion control measures

12) shorter braking distances
a.... on drugs or something? the st205 has awesome brakes, good pads like carbotechs will stop you dead far quicker than any evo or poohbaru
find me statistics that prove that and I will retract my statement

13) significantly higher levels of overall reliability
a... its a toyota, ive owned it 4 years and have had only regular maintanence that i would do on any other car....
your car either does not put out much if any power above the factory setting or you drive very cautiously. I've encounted diff problems and a broken engine mount bolt still retaining the factory setting.

14) smoother ride quality with less vibration from engine and drive train.
a.. its a sports car, built for speed with a little comfort, you dont like, buy a boring car
Is the Lexus LF-A a boring car? It has been described as very smooth in ride quality vibration. I'm certain you would appriciate this feature even though you think it makes a car boring. It actually does exactly the opposite

15) better tires
a... its called a tyre shop
again key words... "as euipped from the factory"...

16) better visibility through xenon discharge technology (sometimes steerable and self leveling)
a... buy a hid kit, its not like they had those lights back then, look at the r32 and r33 liners, they are the same crap headlights.
Probably the worst solution you can utilize is buying an HID kit. this introduces dangerously large amounts of glare into the view path of on coming drivers but then I get the feeling this is not a concern for you.

17) higher horse power outputs
a... it did, it was far more than the 240 quoted as proven by multiple dyno's
If you are saying that a stock ST205 puts out more than 240 horse power on a chassis dyno then we're clearly not discussing the same car. Either way compare it to any of the newer sports and several luxury cars of today and you realize that the average soccer mom's vehicle will have a stock ST205 for breakfast.



18) smoother power delivery usually through newer cam phasing technologies
a... what isnt smooth, i get very smooth power and usable boost of 1.2bar from 3600rpm
I don't care who says the CT20-b turbo pulls the car hard right up to redline. It simply doesn't. the car feels punchy around its torque peak as is the case with any other engine with static cam settings but the falloff at higher RPM is blatant and somewhat depressing. Smoother power delivery through inventions such as VVT are heaps better for performance because a broader usable torque band has no downsides whatsoever. cam phasing positively enhances idle characteristics, off boost drivability, fuel ecconomy, boost threshold, peak torque RPM value, peak horse power RPM value, linearity of acceleration, and the list continues.

19) significantly better aesthetics
a.. you need to go to specsavers, the st205 is a fantastic looking car and doesnt look a day old.
the ST205 is a 2 door sports car. If you look at any of the recent two door sports car offerings from low end manufacturers such as mazda, hyundai and honda you realize that the ST205 has again been left behind on styling especially interior... if you start comparing it to things like the BMW M3 CSL and Z roadster it gets left even further behind.

I replied to your post just for the heck of it. It is still a simple fact that since toyota isn't going to produce anything on the low end platform that can keep up with the competition, those who wish to stay competitive in terms of performance as well as class with an ST205 have their work cut out for them.