The engine's in 7th and 6th gen Celica, Why did they change?? Options

[BonzaiCelica]

So i was thinking the other day of the difference between the motor's in the 6th gen and 7th gen celica's. The 3sge engine was a very potential motor with 3rd gen producing 177 hp 142 lb torque, 4th gen "Redtop Beams" 197hp 152 lb torque and the 5th gen "Blacktop" found in the Altezza producing 207 hp and 159 lb's torque. I would say those a pretty impressive numbers.

Honda has had their vtec since the nsx first came out in the early 90's and they have been improving ever since. So why did toyota decide to go with a 1zz-ge and 2zz-ge engine for the celica. I mean the displacement went down in .2 liters. The 1.8 ltr 2zz engine came with vvtl-i to compete with honda's vtec? In the US, the celica only produced a 180 hp and in japan it produced 190 hp. Then there was the trd celica which produced 194 hp. Still that wasnt even enough to touch the Integra type r B18c5 motor which produced 195 hp and had around the same torque as the 7th.

So why didnt toyota stick with the 3sge. They could have produced an 2 ltr engine that had around 215 hp with vvt-i on the intake and exhaust manifold just like the 3sge blacktop.

[BonzaiCelica]

hmm i see alot of guys swapping in 3S-GE Blacktop into their celica st182. what did they have to change to make this possible, do they still use the altezza ecu?? Swapping the head from the blacktop, making a custom valve cover painted in the red thats painted on the 3sge redtop and the same pistons used in the blacktop with an aftermarket ecu... would the torque be the same as a blacktop beams??

Recently updated video from japan about a few months back of his SS-III ST202 vs an MR-S fitted with a 2zz-ge im assuming at tsukuba. I also asked him if he has any videos of him versus an Integra Type R DC2 and then i translated it using google and left a comment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OUOe8u1e0

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Aug 19, 2010 - 1:31 AM

[Edophus]

hmm i see alot of guys swapping in 3S-GE Blacktop into their celica st182. what did they have to change to make this possible, do they still use the altezza ecu?? Swapping the head from the blacktop, making a custom valve cover painted in the red thats painted on the 3sge redtop and the same pistons used in the blacktop with an aftermarket ecu... would the torque be the same as a blacktop beams??

Recently updated video from japan about a few months back of his SS-III ST202 vs an MR-S fitted with a 2zz-ge im assuming at tsukuba. I also asked him if he has any videos of him versus an Integra Type R DC2 and then i translated it using google and left a comment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OUOe8u1e0

thats my current project, blacktop beams into an st182 for track and fun purposes, maybe it was you who asked recently on youtube how i did it?

[RavenAegis45]

hmm i see alot of guys swapping in 3S-GE Blacktop into their celica st182. what did they have to change to make this possible, do they still use the altezza ecu?? Swapping the head from the blacktop, making a custom valve cover painted in the red thats painted on the 3sge redtop and the same pistons used in the blacktop with an aftermarket ecu... would the torque be the same as a blacktop beams??

Recently updated video from japan about a few months back of his SS-III ST202 vs an MR-S fitted with a 2zz-ge im assuming at tsukuba. I also asked him if he has any videos of him versus an Integra Type R DC2 and then i translated it using google and left a comment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OUOe8u1e0

thats my current project, blacktop beams into an st182 for track and fun purposes, maybe it was you who asked recently on youtube how i did it?

Ummm hate to burst your bubble but from the look of that Intake Manifold, thats the so called Grey top BEAMS 3S-GE, which is more similar to the Red Top but i believe it has a different exhaust manifold and is detuned slightly? but it definitely doesn't look like a true Black Top

[Edophus]

Ummm hate to burst your bubble but from the look of that Intake Manifold, thats the so called Grey top BEAMS 3S-GE, which is more similar to the Red Top but i believe it has a different exhaust manifold and is detuned slightly? but it definitely doesn't look like a true Black Top

its ok my bubble remains intact , its a blacktop alright, look at where the altenator would normally be, thats a water way from the head to the radiator, that part is different to the other beams, as is the oil drain at the other side of the head its in a slightly different position, and also no waterways at the gearbox side of the engine , the intake manifold is from a red top i've just painted it black.

Its basically a blacktop engine, redtop intake manifold/throttlebody, redtop oil pickup and baffle plate, and redtop sump. The timing belt tensioner has been swapped with a redtop tensioner aswell.


This was me mocking up the setup for the altenator as its tucked down the back of the block now, same position as the mr2, it can still be changed once the engine is in position it just takes a little longer. Excuse the mess it was an old barn i was working in and very hard to keep clean!


that was when the engine first went in, quite clearly a blacktop from these pictures, i had to swap the brake master cylinder for a gen 6 ss3 (actually the old one my old ss3!) in order for it to clear the vvti gear.


One of the things that makes this possible without creating a custom mount on the timing belt side is the gen 5 has a different engine mount there to the gen6, which would clash with the exhaust vvti gear, also i removed power steering and abs so i was able to route the water lines at that side of the engine bay.

Bonzai, i dont think there is that many, the only other blacktop st182 i know of is in germany, i know of a few mr2's though, but maybe there has been more since i last looked. Its not a lot of point in doing this over the redtop, but the blacktop has a lighter valvetrain intended to rev higher, and it makes a bit more power at higher revs, perfect for my track car, also blacktop engines are cheaper over here in the uk, so cost wise its not been any different to convert the blacktop with some redtop parts, as it would be to buying in a redtop. Aftermarket ecu was always part of the plan aswell. The blacktop should yeild a little extra power and revs and hopefully be worth the extra work.

At the moment the engine is in and running, but it needs the fueling sorted, also the blacktop throttlebody being drive by wire is a pain, and isnt working right, not sure if it needs to talk to the vsc/trc ecu that would normally be in an altezza, i've given up on it for justnow, and will be using an adaptronic ecu and binning the altezza ecu, will be using the redtop throttle body.

Havent done anything of late Rusty, its been in storage for a couple months now at a freinds lockup, and probably will be for a couple more, i'm currently looking for a new place, i've got my new wiring loom to be doing meantime. But damn i need this thing on the road I got to drive it onto the back of a trailer though