Remanufactured Head (ebay), Need you all experts advise Options

[VavAlephVav]

Ya i'd say a 'rebuilt head' doesn't mean that they have ground the cams for performance or anything like that.

[Langing]

Three angle valve job; lap the valves in; check the tolerances on the camshafts journals, camshaft lobes, reshim the valves, replace the valve seals, check the valve guides; check the head for cracks and resurface if necessary

Muchas gracias! With that helpful info I can finally relate to what's going on.

You've done this before, right? Did you do most of it by yourself (DIY) or did you farm out the whole job? Or have you done it more than once?

With 16 valves, I would think that work could take a person a while to finish? Would it be true that most anyone mechanically inclined who has the right tools and is reasonably careful could do that job, with the exception of resurfacing, since that's the only task that requires expensive equipment, or do most of those tasks require expensive equipment? And how about cleaning all those parts, wouldn't that be a monster chore?

If an unskilled person, a DIY guy, just had the hots for taking an engine apart to rebuild it all by himself, wanted to get himself a salvage engine from a junkyard, would you try real hard to discourage him? Or would you stay silent and wait for him to fail?

For how many months would he have to reserve the garage to do this?

[msk59]

http://www.shop.headsonly.com/TOYOTA-CELIC...CELICA-7AFE.htm
here is the link of one re builder. and here is the description of what work is done to the head:

This listing is for a rebuilt Toyota Celica 7AFE cylinder head for the years 1993-1997. For other models see our store listings. This head is completely rebuilt. It has been pressure checked for cracks and resurfaced. Guides and seats have been replaced as needed. New VITON valve stem seals have been installed. All heads are given a three angle valve job. All valves have been vacuum checked to ensure proper sealing.

In terms of how long it will take to rebuild the head, Here is a video link I found that will give you an idea of what has been done. this will give you an idea of how the head is pulled out and how the piston rings are cleaned and replaced:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_ASGwWtrxE

Music is annoying LOL.

[Special_Edy]

Three angle valve job; lap the valves in; check the tolerances on the camshafts journals, camshaft lobes, reshim the valves, replace the valve seals, check the valve guides; check the head for cracks and resurface if necessary

Muchas gracias! With that helpful info I can finally relate to what's going on.

You've done this before, right? Did you do most of it by yourself (DIY) or did you farm out the whole job? Or have you done it more than once?

With 16 valves, I would think that work could take a person a while to finish? Would it be true that most anyone mechanically inclined who has the right tools and is reasonably careful could do that job, with the exception of resurfacing, since that's the only task that requires expensive equipment, or do most of those tasks require expensive equipment? And how about cleaning all those parts, wouldn't that be a monster chore?

If an unskilled person, a DIY guy, just had the hots for taking an engine apart to rebuild it all by himself, wanted to get himself a salvage engine from a junkyard, would you try real hard to discourage him? Or would you stay silent and wait for him to fail?

For how many months would he have to reserve the garage to do this?

Ive had a couple heads worked on, had to have a burnt exhaust valve replaced on my old 5s motor. Last head I had apart was for my '82 Yamaha SECA 750, none of the local shops claimed to have the equipment for that small of valves so I lapped the valves and replaced the stem seals myself. Had to buy a special sized valve removal tool.

Without tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, your are limited to-

Removing the valves, replacing the valve stem seals with them out.
Lapping the valves with valve grinding compound.
Using calipers to measure the valves, camshaft lobes and cam journals.
Using plastigauge to measure the clearance inside the cam journals.
Reshimming the valve lifters back into spec.
Checking the straightness of the head.

Grinding the valves and valve seats requires serious machinery, as does replacing the seat or valve guide. But luckly these things are usually only needed on a severely worn head. I would stake money on toyota cylinder heads outliving the block and lower end by several hundred thousand miles as long as the engine is properly maintained. Just make sure the valve shims are in spec, they have something like a 75,000 mile service check interval.

[msk59]

Langing: i spoke to a guy named David from Cylinders Head International. He explained what is done to the head is exactly what he described on their website. he also mentioned that he sells about 70 heads a day from his shop. I asked him if there is additional work requires and he said NOT usually, however, sometimes you do need to adjust the valves if there is a valve chatter.

In Shims under bucket valve system, it is rather difficult to adjust as you would need the exact shim to replace it with. Most sport bikes have that type of valves adjustment.

I think I am going to go with the aftermarket head in the next month or so.

[Langing]

Langing: i spoke to a guy named David from Cylinders Head International. He explained what is done to the head is exactly what he described on their website. he also mentioned that he sells about 70 heads a day from his shop. I asked him if there is additional work requires and he said NOT usually, however, sometimes you do need to adjust the valves if there is a valve chatter.

In Shims under bucket valve system, it is rather difficult to adjust as you would need the exact shim to replace it with. Most sport bikes have that type of valves adjustment.

I think I am going to go with the aftermarket head in the next month or so.

Thanks for the info. Going with a large rebuilder like that seems to me ought to be our best option, all things considered, and especially if we don't want to (or can't) waste a lot of time learning how to be an engine mechanic. Using a local shop, even a good one, judging from the comments, requires that you are fairly knowledgeable about a variety of things, else you can't validate their work. If that man ships out 70 rebuilt heads every day, that's a good indication that his organization is good at rebuilding heads, so your chances of getting a poorly rebuilt one should be low.

SpecialEdy was kind enough to spell out the ginormous amount of sophisticated technical work that is involved in rebuilding a head properly, and no matter how much you choose to take upon yourself, you would still have to use the services of a "trusted" machine shop. I have nothing against machine shops, or the people who own and/or operate them, and in fact believe it important to send work their way whenever you can to help them stay alive. However, when it comes to figuring out the best way to get your engine rebuilt, there is more to it than simply removing and replacing a cylinder head (block, intake, exhaust, etc), and simplifying the process (while achieving a higher probability of getting the job done correctly) seems wise. We need our cars out of service as short a time as possible.

I don't know about you, but each time I attempt something totally new, it takes me anywhere from 2X to 4X the time it should, like if I had been through the process at least once before. That reminds me of the video you posted of the time lapse engine overhaul (with the Christmas music). It made me want to learn how to do that, but scared me as well. There is a whole lot happening in that foreshortened video!

Here's another thought that perhaps you've had yourself. How about getting your car in shape the best and fastest way possible (I can hear your mom's pleasure rising and then falling). . . then, as you have time, search for your Celica's NEXT engine, the one you wished you had in her to begin with, the one that you can imagine would make her whisk through puberty, say from a junkyard or parts place, somewhere you could buy one cheap, and get yourself set up (in your mom's garage? ?) to take your time rebuilding that engine, one it wouldn't matter if you wasted because you would NOT potentially lose much money. If a secret desire to rebuild an engine from scratch was psychologically embedded in your current decision making, you could get it out of your system that way as time and money came available. It's just a thought.

[msk59]

thanks Langing. I just spoke to a mechanic who is a retired Toyota Mechanic. i am taking the car to him next Tuesday and he will check it for me i.e., compression test, leak-down test to see how big a problem I have.

I asked him about the re-manufactured head and he DOES NOT recommend it. He had bad experience in terms of some shops will weld the crack on the head etc. With luck he knows local shops who he trusts for his work to do his machine work for him.

(BTW, I do have my own garage LOL, that is where I spent most of my time anyways)

[VavAlephVav]

There you go, the most important thing is to find peoples you can trust.

And I totally agree i'd rather take it to somebody else so I can be sure it's taken care of right the first time. These guys keep trying to convince me I could do it myself, and I'm sure I could ...eventually
I think $500 for a job that pays 8 hours for somebody I trust is not a bad deal at all.
And if I made an oil mess in Mom's garage then SHE'd blow a head gasket.

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Jul 2, 2014 - 11:11 AM

[Langing]

Three angle valve job; lap the valves in; check the tolerances on the camshafts journals, camshaft lobes, reshim the valves, replace the valve seals, check the valve guides; check the head for cracks and resurface if necessary

Muchas gracias! With that helpful info I can finally relate to what's going on.

You've done this before, right? Did you do most of it by yourself (DIY) or did you farm out the whole job? Or have you done it more than once?

With 16 valves, I would think that work could take a person a while to finish? Would it be true that most anyone mechanically inclined who has the right tools and is reasonably careful could do that job, with the exception of resurfacing, since that's the only task that requires expensive equipment, or do most of those tasks require expensive equipment? And how about cleaning all those parts, wouldn't that be a monster chore?

If an unskilled person, a DIY guy, just had the hots for taking an engine apart to rebuild it all by himself, wanted to get himself a salvage engine from a junkyard, would you try real hard to discourage him? Or would you stay silent and wait for him to fail?

For how many months would he have to reserve the garage to do this?

Ive had a couple heads worked on, had to have a burnt exhaust valve replaced on my old 5s motor. Last head I had apart was for my '82 Yamaha SECA 750, none of the local shops claimed to have the equipment for that small of valves so I lapped the valves and replaced the stem seals myself. Had to buy a special sized valve removal tool.

Without tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, your are limited to-

Removing the valves, replacing the valve stem seals with them out.
Lapping the valves with valve grinding compound.
Using calipers to measure the valves, camshaft lobes and cam journals.
Using plastigauge to measure the clearance inside the cam journals.
Reshimming the valve lifters back into spec.
Checking the straightness of the head.

Grinding the valves and valve seats requires serious machinery, as does replacing the seat or valve guide. But luckly these things are usually only needed on a severely worn head. I would stake money on toyota cylinder heads outliving the block and lower end by several hundred thousand miles as long as the engine is properly maintained. Just make sure the valve shims are in spec, they have something like a 75,000 mile service check interval.

I sincerely appreciate your helpfulness in introducing me to this (what is to me a) new world. What you just posted is most helpful; made things snap into place. You also pointed out something I have been ignoring for a long time because of my lack of experience and shallow understanding. I'm talking about the importance of keeping the valve shims in spec. Their service interval is 75,000 miles and I've not paid the least attention to them for the 300,000 miles I've put on her. Maybe if I got those shims adjusted, she might be able to go over 70 without me feeling like she needs rest (seems happy at 60)! That adds a new task to my relatively immediate todo list!

Although I find engine guts intimidating, I've had my 7A-FE valve cover off twice since I bought Betsy, once because of an oil leak at the spark plug tube ends (caused by a service mechanic) and the second was when I changed out her timing belt. So, it is not EXACTLY like I see the engine as a complete black box. I have seen her cam shafts

So, when I read your advice I popped open Vol 1 of my BGB and skimmed over the VALVE CLEARANCE INSPECTION AND ADJUSTMENT procedure. It has some terminology that I will have to puzzle but the only thing that caught my eye as being a possible problem for me is their use of two SSTs on the exhaust side used to take out, measure, and replace the adjusting shims (SST A and SST B. . . page EG-22), needed because the exhault cam shaft is not removed in the procedure. Since my experience with Toyota tells me you cannot get your hands on their special service tools, I'm wondering if there are suitable alternative tools? I've got thickness gauge, micrometer, etc., and I can be careful when removing the intake cam shaft, so this job doesn't look all that intimidating to me. Seems I'm slowly being forced to crawl deeper and deeper into her internal organs!


BTW: I googled images of the Yamaha SECA 750. If your 82 is like those images, you had/have a very nice looking motorcycle!

[Langing]

thanks Langing. I just spoke to a mechanic who is a retired Toyota Mechanic. i am taking the car to him next Tuesday and he will check it for me i.e., compression test, leak-down test to see how big a problem I have.

I asked him about the re-manufactured head and he DOES NOT recommend it. He had bad experience in terms of some shops will weld the crack on the head etc. With luck he knows local shops who he trusts for his work to do his machine work for him.

(BTW, I do have my own garage LOL, that is where I spent most of my time anyways)

It is good to know that you have clean, protected space in which you can do this kind of work.

That negative recommendation from an expert is helpful and certainly timely. Makes my logical reasoning look flawed.

But makes me wonder where the flaw is?

When you are interacting with him try to pump him for information like: whether his bad experience(s) came while he was an active Toyota Mechanic or afterwards; how many times did he experience such problems versus how many times he installed rebuilt heads; could that/those bad experience(s) have been isolated events or did they occur with all re-manufacturers; were there general instructions given to Toyota Mechanics NOT to use head re-manufacturers; why did he think a re-manufacturer would try to get away with doing something so obviously unethical as that (clearly, they would lose a head from the "circulation" that keeps their business going, but getting another from a junkyard ought to be cheap and easy, AND the cost of getting a bad reputation is always hanging over them if they operated this way); was "welding a crack on a head" the only problem he has seen coming from them; did they generally do a superior job of rebuilding heads, otherwise? I would be looking for other reasons to be biased against re-manufacturers, since I still have hope.

Like, what might cause a supposed expert Toyota Mechanic to favor a local machine shop over re-builders, other than what he reported to you. I know, for example, that Toyota dealers charge an enormous amount of money for their OEM Toyota parts, and do the same in charging for their Mechanic's time. They consequently seem to sell parts that are, indeed, OEM (i.e. high) quality. They don't need call-backs for any reason because they simply cannot afford to potentially be seen as providing inferior service. If I was a RETIRED Toyota Mechanic and was presented with the situation you and I are in with aging Celica engines, and I had limited funds, why would I insist on only using OEM quality parts in my personal car, unless I was still thinking like a Toyota Mechanic? I can imagine that while he was working directly for Toyota, being a well trained mechanic, he probably didn't have to think twice about charging his customers extra to cover the costs of using a local machine shop with which he developed a nice working relationship over time, and that machine shop would have good reason to do their absolute best work when a Toyota job was coming in the door. Would the same shop treat you the same? Would you know a machine shop that did Toyota's work?

I wonder if the guy who told you he shipped 70 heads per day would tell you how many heads he shipped to car dealer shops versus independent shops, and DIY people?

And remember, a sample of one isn't statistically meaningful. We need to find a number of experts who report similar examples before we can know we should write these guys off. Maybe I will visit some of the other Toyota websites looking for comments about head rebuilders and report back as to what I find.

All that said, what your Toyota Mechanic said is not good on its face!

[Langing]

There you go, the most important thing is to find peoples you can trust.

And I totally agree i'd rather take it to somebody else so I can be sure it's taken care of right the first time. These guys keep trying to convince me I could do it myself, and I'm sure I could ...eventually
I think $500 for a job that pays 8 hours for somebody I trust is not a bad deal at all.
And if I made an oil mess in Mom's garage then SHE'd blow a head gasket.

Exactly, TRUST is the most important issue we are dealing with. These days, it isn't easy to develop!


But once you have. . . life is good!

[VavAlephVav]

To me that is the most important reason to not buy something like that from someplace far enough away to have to ship it.
I talk about going to "school" and "Living at moms", but I'm really not that young at all. And I've worked many jobs for many different companies and it doesn't matter What business they are in, They make money because they F3kk people everyday.
And you would think logically that you could make even More money if you would Do What Is Right, but they don't give a f3ck, they just keep on f3cking people. They figure most people are so afraid of getting f3cked some more that once they realize they've been f3cked they won't even come back to complain or try to get their money back.
And even if a few people do it won't matter because they've made so much money off of everybody else.

So it is good to search around to find somebody who knows what they are talking about and ask them who They trust.

[Langing]

To me that is the most important reason to not buy something like that from someplace far enough away to have to ship it.
I talk about going to "school" and "Living at moms", but I'm really not that young at all. And I've worked many jobs for many different companies and it doesn't matter What business they are in, They make money because they F3kk people everyday.
And you would think logically that you could make even More money if you would Do What Is Right, but they don't give a f3ck, they just keep on f3cking people. They figure most people are so afraid of getting f3cked some more that once they realize they've been f3cked they won't even come back to complain or try to get their money back.
And even if a few people do it won't matter because they've made so much money off of everybody else.

So it is good to search around to find somebody who knows what they are talking about and ask them who They trust.

That is a really sad comment! Nonetheless, I agree with the truth of it. That's where things stand today. Maybe we can join together to find a way to make things better? Like sharing the names of people and companies we, as individuals, have come to trust; call it a TRUSTED LIST! So many people want things done right; this website is a testament to that, and there are so few who are spoiling it for the rest of us. Put them on the DO NOT TRUST LIST; drive them out of business, and out of our lives!

[Special_Edy]

You can remove the exhaust camshaft on the 5s, possibly the 7a, without much effort. Its the intake camshaft which requires a lot of disassembly. The only important things are making sure you install the camshaft bearing caps in the correct order (they are numbered), and that you reinstall the camshaft with the timing marks aligned properly.

The exhaust valves are typically the faster wearing valves on any engine, they are heated by the exhaust while open which can cause wear, and they shed the heat through the valve seat when closed. The intake valves are cooled by the valve seats too, but also cooled by the cool air from the intake flowing through them. 100 or less degree air vs 1000+ degree air makes a big difference in the valve's life.

[msk59]

Thanks to all for their input. I think the strong consensus from reading this thread is the best way to go, which may be a bit expensive is to go with the rebuilding your existing head from a local shop you have found (hopefully reputable)
So I am now gathering parts and other info. I started another thread in which I am asking what brand of parts to go with since I have read many different reviews on this board.
Special_Edy: Thank you for your input. I got the factory Service Manual for 1996 Celica and I will be using that to dismantle the engine. For now the plan is to not remove the entire engine from the car. However, if I found out more work is required then I will do that.

Thanks to all

[Langing]

Thanks to all for their input. I think the strong consensus from reading this thread is the best way to go, which may be a bit expensive is to go with the rebuilding your existing head from a local shop you have found (hopefully reputable)
So I am now gathering parts and other info. I started another thread in which I am asking what brand of parts to go with since I have read many different reviews on this board.
Special_Edy: Thank you for your input. I got the factory Service Manual for 1996 Celica and I will be using that to dismantle the engine. For now the plan is to not remove the entire engine from the car. However, if I found out more work is required then I will do that.

Thanks to all

I'm hoping you will open a thread to photo-document the tear down, rework, and rebuilding of your cylinder head, so we can all learn from your experiences?

[msk59]

I am planning on it. I was going to start last weekend but other priorities interfered and this weekend looks shot too! I would like to start and finish before it gets too cold.