2zz swap? Options

[Team_yoda]

if your gonna do a swap in a 6th gen celi then go for the 3s-gte. My brother has a celica gt-s with the 2zz 6sp. Its a great motor but there is no torque. Also that motor is very easy to blow because of the close ratio trans. Lift does kicks ass ill admit. But the motor in general sux unless you start from scratch. Its an all aluminum block with either cast iron or steel insert sleves. so you cant bore it hone it or anything. Stock you can only run 6-7lbs boost cuz it has 11.5:1 compression ratio. The 3s-gte it an amazing swap. You can run stock turbo to 17lbs on rev 3&4 motors. & if you really wanna kill civics do an AWD swap. thats what ima do to mine.

[Kwanza26]

if your gonna do a swap in a 6th gen celi then go for the 3s-gte. My brother has a celica gt-s with the 2zz 6sp. Its a great motor but there is no torque. Also that motor is very easy to blow because of the close ratio trans. Lift does kicks ass ill admit. But the motor in general sux unless you start from scratch. Its an all aluminum block with either cast iron or steel insert sleves. so you cant bore it hone it or anything. Stock you can only run 6-7lbs boost cuz it has 11.5:1 compression ratio. The 3s-gte it an amazing swap. You can run stock turbo to 17lbs on rev 3&4 motors. & if you really wanna kill civics do an AWD swap. thats what ima do to mine.

Anyone who argues "torque" and drives anything with less than 200 ft lbs of torque... doesn't know jack about torque. Torque and horsepower are just two ways of representing the same thing... work rate. You can have all of the torque in the world but if it has a low work rate (horsepower)... it's not gonna be fast. it can sure tow a lot though. Know the difference before you start saying "blah blah blah... no torque". If anything, the 2ZZ being an open deck alluminum block, you can re-sleeve and bore the motor out significantly more than you can a closed deck iron block (such as an S or A series block). Also... you cannot blame the motor for blowing up because of a sh!tty driver mis-shifting at 8000 rpms. That will pretty much blow up any motor...

Anyway... the reason Toyota people don't like the motor is because it works like a Honda VTEC motor. Most Toyota tuners are just biased and preach "torque" this and "torque" that... but fail to realize Horsepower is what wins the race. Why? Gearing. Torque doesn't take as much advantage of gearing in a accelerating situation as horsepower. Everything works together. Granted the 2ZZ is more limited in terms of tuning due to the motor being smaller and already highly tuned from the factory, but that in no way makes it better/worst than any comparable motor.

[yaj204]

if your gonna do a swap in a 6th gen celi then go for the 3s-gte. My brother has a celica gt-s with the 2zz 6sp. Its a great motor but there is no torque. Also that motor is very easy to blow because of the close ratio trans. Lift does kicks ass ill admit. But the motor in general sux unless you start from scratch. Its an all aluminum block with either cast iron or steel insert sleves. so you cant bore it hone it or anything. Stock you can only run 6-7lbs boost cuz it has 11.5:1 compression ratio. The 3s-gte it an amazing swap. You can run stock turbo to 17lbs on rev 3&4 motors. & if you really wanna kill civics do an AWD swap. thats what ima do to mine.

Anyone who argues "torque" and drives anything with less than 200 ft lbs of torque... doesn't know jack about torque. Torque and horsepower are just two ways of representing the same thing... work rate. You can have all of the torque in the world but if it has a low work rate (horsepower)... it's not gonna be fast. it can sure tow a lot though. Know the difference before you start saying "blah blah blah... no torque". If anything, the 2ZZ being an open deck alluminum block, you can re-sleeve and bore the motor out significantly more than you can a closed deck iron block (such as an S or A series block). Also... you cannot blame the motor for blowing up because of a sh!tty driver mis-shifting at 8000 rpms. That will pretty much blow up any motor...

Anyway... the reason Toyota people don't like the motor is because it works like a Honda VTEC motor. Most Toyota tuners are just biased and preach "torque" this and "torque" that... but fail to realize Horsepower is what wins the race. Why? Gearing. Torque doesn't take as much advantage of gearing in a accelerating situation as horsepower. Everything works together. Granted the 2ZZ is more limited in terms of tuning due to the motor being smaller and already highly tuned from the factory, but that in no way makes it better/worst than any comparable motor.

i agree!!

[Kadett]

@Kwanza: You got a point. But still like I said. For daily driving (general use of the car) I'd rather have a shift lazy engine with a bit of low end torque (2k rpm upwards) then having to rev it up a high rpm HP engine to 4k rpm to get anywhere a bit faster.

I know the 3S-GTE (stockwise) doesn't make 200lbs before like 3000-3500rpm. But a swapped (3s) 6th gen is still faster (@ low rpms) then with the 2zz. Even tho the 7th gen has shorter gearing and weighs 170-200lbs lighter then the 6th gen.

[Team_yoda]

Anyone who argues "torque" and drives anything with less than 200 ft lbs of torque... doesn't know jack about torque. Torque and horsepower are just two ways of representing the same thing... work rate. You can have all of the torque in the world but if it has a low work rate (horsepower)... it's not gonna be fast. it can sure tow a lot though. Know the difference before you start saying "blah blah blah... no torque". If anything, the 2ZZ being an open deck alluminum block, you can re-sleeve and bore the motor out significantly more than you can a closed deck iron block (such as an S or A series block). Also... you cannot blame the motor for blowing up because of a sh!tty driver mis-shifting at 8000 rpms. That will pretty much blow up any motor...

Anyway... the reason Toyota people don't like the motor is because it works like a Honda VTEC motor. Most Toyota tuners are just biased and preach "torque" this and "torque" that... but fail to realize Horsepower is what wins the race. Why? Gearing. Torque doesn't take as much advantage of gearing in a accelerating situation as horsepower. Everything works together. Granted the 2ZZ is more limited in terms of tuning due to the motor being smaller and already highly tuned from the factory, but that in no way makes it better/worst than any comparable motor.[quote]


So tell me how i dont know jack about torque? Dude all i said was the the 3s-gte is better cause it has more torque. But it aslo has a top end too. & actually you cant really resleave the 2zz. its a cast iron impregnated aluminum block, you'll ruin it. I work for toyota i know. Have you ever actually driven a celica gt-s 6spd without the TSB tranny updated parts? & Everyone iv talked to loves lift in the 2zz, its not like vtec its better. theres just a very limeted number off parts and there expencive, not to mention the car is a bitch to work on.

[purplegt4]

& actually you cant really resleave the 2zz. its a cast iron impregnated aluminum block, you'll ruin it. I work for toyota i know.

The 2zz-ge actually has an aluminum w/metal matrix composite lined cylinder block. The 1zz has the cast iron liner.

the 2zz was designed to

1. provide high speed performance
2. retain low speed flexibility
3. maintain same bore pitch as base engine (to keep same outer dimensions)
4. maintain same emission standard as base engine target TLEV
5. achieve best power to weight ratio in the field.

2zz is a sporty, compact, lightweight, high power, and flexible engine.

Takasuke Shikida, Yoshikatsu Nakamura, Tamio Nakakubo
and Hiroyuki Kawase. Development of the High Speed 2ZZ-GE Engine 2000-01-0671
_____________________________________

what are 1/4 mi times for a swapped 3s vs the 1/4 mi times for a 7th gen?

7th gen times from newcelica.org
http://www.newcelica.org/other/tracktimes/...?sort=celicagts

from an old web page that toysport has up
http://www.toysport.com/Technical%20Inform..._tech_notes.htm

The aluminum block is hefty and casted really clean. It will allow the engine to produce massive horsepower over stock. Dimensionally they are bigger than the 4AGE, the engine family it is superceding. Block strengthening is possible, by pinning the cylinders to stabilize the bores. The crank is a lightweight design and so are the rods. The crank and rods are casted really well, stress-relief and shot-peen- will produce parts that look forged.

The 2ZZGE has problems. Bent valves from missed shifts have been common. Sticking valve mechanism also cause unscheduled visits to the Toyota Dealers.

Toyota is addressing these problems currently. We have forged pistons in stock and .5mm os available with deeper valve reliefs and a .5 higher compression.

considering i haven't heard of the 2zz being swapped in, i'd really like to see it race a swapped 3s. stock forms of course.

[frosty]

torque gets you ahead of the race, hp just carrys you the last little bit. I would love to have the lift in my car, I just wish the 2zz wasn't a 1.8L.

If there was a stroker kit or if someone found another crank that fits, then I would say it might be worth it. Throw in a nice set of cams, os valves, head jod, and some itb's and look out!

As long as you find this motor for cheap and keep it all cost effective, then I say continue on!

[Team_yoda]

torque gets you ahead of the race, hp just carrys you the last little bit. I would love to have the lift in my car, I just wish the 2zz wasn't a 1.8L.

If there was a stroker kit or if someone found another crank that fits, then I would say it might be worth it. Throw in a nice set of cams, os valves, head jod, and some itb's and look out!

As long as you find this motor for cheap and keep it all cost effective, then I say continue on!

There is a stroker kit out there for it. But your gonna take the longgevity of the motor & throw it out the window.I dont thank iv ever seen cams for it. Aad a port & polish on the head will only give you about 10hp to the crank. If you seriously want da 2zz jus get a 2000 or 2001 celica gt-s. its lighter, you can subtract more wieght easily. Its a high 14sec car stock if you can drive it. & with a few mods you can be down to high 13s

[purplegt4]

isn't that like saying to all the US 3s swappers -> hey, if you want a 3s go get a st185, they have the 3s stock, awd, and it'll be legal.

isn't that the reason ppl come to this site -> to read about a 6g and make their 6g to their liking?

i personally don't like a 7g because of its blindspots, and i like the 6g better, which is why I have one.

[pitcelica]

I think that some of you don't understand what is real HP and real Torque.

Torque is rotational force.

Torque formula :

T = R x F

R = radius (wheel diameter/2 for WHP)
F = Force applied on a certain point at the end of the radius (force applied to the ground) unit is lbs or newton

HP = power (quantity of watt)

Hp come from torque and the only other value that can affect HP for a same torque is RPM

HP formula :

HP = torque (lbs-ft) * RPM/5252

So, supposing a 3sgte : 200 lbs-ft @ 3200 RPM

HP = 200*3200/5252

So, HP @ 3200 RPM = 122HP

So, supposing a 2ZZ : 130lbs-ft @ 6800 RPM

HP = 130*6800/5252

So, HP @ 6800 RPM = 168 HP

Those maths are only example, but I only want to clarify some little things that people don't understand. HP cannot be measured. Torque can be measured. Hp is calculated from torque and RPM.

High torque mean high HP at low RPM

Small torque mean High HP at high RPM

So, now you can make a choice, do you want to have big HP at 8000RPM or do you want more torque = HP appear at lower RPM.

This is only to clarify little things, if I made a mistake or if you think that what I'm saying is wrong, please let me know.

[bccentaur3]

isn't that like saying to all the US 3s swappers -> hey, if you want a 3s go get a st185, they have the 3s stock, awd, and it'll be legal.

isn't that the reason ppl come to this site -> to read about a 6g and make their 6g to their liking?

i personally don't like a 7g because of its blindspots, and i like the 6g better, which is why I have one.

Despite the blind spots, anyone who has driven the 7th gen gts will pick that over a 6th gen. Its not all aesthetic at this point. With the 7th gen gts the more bang for the buck would be to boost it vs swapping in a 3s. Same goes with the 6th gen. Why do the 2zz swap when you can go with the 3s with little modification to the motor mounts. I own both 7th gen and 6th gen. I love the 7th gen because its a gts and with slight mods to the suspension it handles 10X better than the 6th gen. Sure the gts is equipped with the vvtl-i 2zzge motor, but once I get the 3s into the 94 gt, I'll end up forgetting about the 7th gen. Why? Because BOOST is like sex.

[Kadett]

Why? Because BOOST is like sex.

You just cant have enough of it

This post has been edited by Kadett: Dec 12, 2007 - 11:13 AM

[GriffGirl]

Why? Because BOOST is like sex.

You just cant have enough of it

But you'll still need to take a little blue pill for it when you get old. And I won't even GO there about all the lubricants that are already required.