I am just going to run low boost. . . yea right!, A warning for anyone who wants to boost a 5sfe Options

[HardHead93]

This is a cautionary tale to anyone who thinks they are going to slap a turbo on a high mileage engine and run low boost. DON’T DO IT! In December of 2014 despite all the posts that say, don’t boost your engine unless it is low mileage or rebuilt, I went for it. Is the 5sfe a great engine to boost, yes, but do it right. This post will tell the LONG, expensive, frustrating story to creating my 5sfte. The below write up is what happened.

Background
It has been a long road for this 5sfte build. Here is the engine I started with:


I saw what Supershannon77 did with an Ebay T3/4 turbo for her 6th gen Celica 5sfte and I tried to duplicate it (with a few upgrades). I bought an Ebay kit with the idea that I would need to modify or replace some of the parts that came in it but the bottom line was it would give me a turbo, intercooler, exhaust manifold, downpipe, and some miscellaneous needed parts.

As I started the build I found the kit seriously lacking. The big one was the downpipe was for a CT26 turbo not a T3/4 so I had to order one. There was no oil return line and there was not enough intercooler piping. It took 3 months to resolve all the issues with the advertised “bolt-on” kit (there is no such thing as bolt on from Ebay), I ended up with the following build:


8 psi boost
T3/T04E Turbo
Turbosmart Wastegate
2.5 inch full exhaust
Magnaflow Muffler and Catalytic Converter
AEM FIC Piggyback
SSQV Blow Off Valve
460cc RX-7 Injectors
FMIC
Walpro 255 Fuel Pump
3sgte 3 Bar MAP Sensor
Custom downpipe from Demon Motorsports
Ebay tubular exhaust manifold

I started noticing when I would pop the hood after a drive that there was an extreme amount of heat coming out of the engine bay. I also saw that the under hood insulation was burning away. After doing some digging, I found that the tubular manifold I was using was giving off too much heat instead of shooting it down to the exhaust. I needed a 3sgte manifold. I went to the Toyota dealership and they told me that all their warehouses are out of stock and that the best bet was to find a used one. That led to one option, Ebay. After about a week of missing out on bids I finally scored a 3sgte manifold. It arrived and I was so excited, I ceramic coated it and put it on and the car was back!


Then another problem reared its head, the clutch started slipping. I bought a SPEC stage 2 clutch, got it installed and the car ran like a champ. In the process of tuning the car, I sprung a fuel leak that lead to an engine fire. I think it the Walpro fuel pump put too much pressure on the original lines coming from the fuel filter and something popped.




Now here I am, where I should have started. In hindsight I should have rebuilt the engine before going down the turbo route. My plan was to fix the fire damage and rebuild the engine to a 14-15 psi boost-able monster. My goal is 280-300 horsepower. Based on what I saw in Pressure2’s build, I can use stock pistons and rods but I will need a metal head gasket. I planned to swap the California cylinder head with a Federal head so the fuel injectors fit perfectly.

[HardHead93]

The Engine Pull
I found this great video series of someone pulling, rebuilding, and installing a 5sfe in a Camry. There are some minor differences from this video and my car (engine mounts and automatic vs manual transmission). This video was a really big help. The link is: www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBHJZ_x0neI

Also, these 2 books will become your best friend:


As I started removing parts from the car I found more fire damage than I expected. Nothing that cannot be fixed or replaced but it is still surprising. Initially I only thought I lost my 3 bar MAP sensor, vacuum lines, and some electrical wiring, but there was more than that. The damage included the power steering pump, distributor cap, passenger side axle, A/C trinary switch, EGR recirculation valve, and all the splashguards on that side of the car.

Now starts the engine pull. I took out the exhaust, turbo, downpipe, intake, battery, and radiator.


After that I disconnected the upper and lower heater hoses, then the motor mounts. Also, the A/C condenser and the power steering pump had to be disconnected. When disconnecting the A/C condenser I had to make sure I did not unplug any hoses. I hung it with the heavy duty ties on the front of the engine bay. Then the engine pull began.


As I went through the process of pulling the motor I had to make sure that nothing else was connected as I pulled the motor. I ended up missing the fuel return line to the charcoal canister. This lead to me breaking the Bimetal BVSV Evaporative Vacuumm Valve luckily I found a used one for $20.

Here is the empty engine bay.


I could see all the fire damage. Damn, this is going to be some hard work!


Here is the engine out of the car.


From the back. . .


Looks like I will need a new upper and lower timing belt cover too.
Here is a picture with the transmission off the car. It breaks my heart to see a brand new performance clutch on a burned up engine.

[HardHead93]

Engine Breakdown
Now with the transmission and clutch off the engine, I could mount it to the engine stand. When you are talking off the clutch make sure you put it somewhere out of the way so that you don’t spill oil on it and ruin the friction surface. A friend pointed this out to me when he saw I had the clutch right near where I was working on the engine.


With the engine on the stand I could really see how bad of shape the engine was in from the fire. There were melted wires, vacuum tubing, timing covers, and seals. That is what I get for not listening to the forums about rebuilding the engine before turbo’ing it


You can see here that the harmonic balancer is still on the crank. I was not able to get if off even after taking a cutter to it. I ended up leaving the crank in the block and letting the machine shop take care of it. Come to find out when the timing belt was changed before I owned he car, someone used red Loctite.




There is the culprit that caused the engine fire. The fuel injector made for a federal cylinder head did not seal with the California one on the engine. I hate Cali emissions even more than ever!


More pictures of the engine teardown.


Here is the fuel rail. Besides some burn marks it is in good shape. I will still replace the pressure regulator just to be safe.


Here are the camshafts still on the head.


Cylinder head is off the block


And the pistons and rods.

[HardHead93]

Engine Build-Up
Once the engine was apart I took the block and crank to a machine shop. The engine had 132K on it and did not need to be bored. The block was honed and vatted. The crank was polished. Here they are:




Also, I ordered a rebuilt federal cylinder head. The company was willing to take my old Cali head as a core. The California head has some differences from the Federal brother.
1. Different injector seats
2. Extra EGR port on the back
Here is the old head next to the new one:


I decided to paint the block just to make it look cool.



Now it was time to start putting this puppy back together but I was getting an itching feeling I was missing something so I started doing some more research. I was looking to any weak points or flaws with my build and I found one that bothered me. The rod bolts may not be strong enough to handle the power I was going to put them through so I decided to go with a forged rod. This would ensure that a bolt would not snap under boost. Also, I went with an aluminum allow piston for added strength. It could not beat a forged piston but the forged ones cost WAY too much money. You could see how much beefer the new piston and rod is compared to the older one.



Block and head back together.


Timing belt.




Before I put the fuel rail on I wanted to do a comparison of the fuel injectors. Here are RX-7 (red top), stock California (green middle), and stock federal (green bottom) injectors. You can see the difference between the California one compared to the other 2. Some people say the federal injector will fit in the California head, well not for me.


Here the engine back together.


This post has been edited by HardHead93: Apr 6, 2016 - 12:52 AM

[SwissFerdi]

Hopefully that's the end of your troubles, nice write-up.

[richee3]

You put some work into this build. I like it!

[ILoveMySilly97]

Always nice to see a turbod 5sfe.

[Smaay]

hopefully the FIC works for you. I had nothing but trouble with it on my car. I ended up putting in a V6

[HardHead93]

hopefully the FIC works for you. I had nothing but trouble with it on my car. I ended up putting in a V6

The story is not over. I still have more to tell about this project and I will post it in the coming weeks. As far as the AEM FIC, it is doing ok. I have built a Megasquirt DIYPNP and plan to put it on. I have already tested it out and the engine starts with it but I am have idle problems.

[enderswift]

sorry to hear about the fire. That really sucks, but you're not letting that set back stop you, which is good.

I once accidentally set a suspension on fire. Good times

[HardHead93]

Engine Build Up Part 2
Before I could put the engine in the car I had to repair all the damage the fire caused in the engine bay. This required me getting a new AC switch, replacing power steering hoses, dropping in a new rack-n-pinion, cleaning up the various burn marks, and replace the AC condensation hose.

Next, with the engine back together I had to mate it with the transmission then put it back into the car. That task is easier said than done.


I spent a good 2 hours with the engine on the hoist and the transmission on a hydraulic jack while I tried to work them both together. After a lot of sweat, tears, and a smashed finger, I got the engine and the transmission back together. If you plan to do this, I suggest having a friend help you put the engine and the tranny together. One person can hold the engine steady while the other works the transmission into place.


Now it was time to drop the engine back into the car. The hardest part was getting the front and rear motor mounts to line up one I got the engine in the car. But my baby was coming back together.


Next I started hooking up the new ECU wiring harness, drop the turbo back in, install the radiator, install the alternator, and fill up fluids.


Then came the moment of truth. I turned the key and the engine turned over but would not start. I check all my connection but could find nothing wrong. Then I found a forum on 6gc.net talking about the distributor being off 180 degrees. I took the distributor off, turned it 180 put it back in and this beast came back to life. I thought I was in for fun times from then forward. Man I was wrong.

[trdproven]

keep it going

[HardHead93]

Now that the engine is back in the car, there was one last piece of fire damage that needed to be fixed, the hood. I did a lot of shopping around and I wanted a hood with vents to reduce under hood temperatures. I decided to go with the VIS Carbon Fiber Hood - Zyclone style. When it came, unboxing it was exciting.


Then when I put in on it looked soooooooo nice! I also added insulation under the hood so that the clear coat would not be damaged.




I was also getting high engine temps so I installed a bumper vent to get more flow to the radiator and oil cooler. I think the intercooler sitting in front of the radiator was blocking some of the air flow. Plus, these New Mexico summers are HOT.

[HardHead93]

So everyone sorry I have not posted any status on the car lately but I have some bad news. I was driving the car hard today and BAM, rod knock. This 5sfte setup is killing me! I need to change this thread to "5SFTE. . . DON'T DO IT!"

Before I get into that, let me pick up where I left off. After I got the hood on the car I finished the build. This was around September 2015. The build at the time was the following:
8 psi boost
T3/T04E Turbo
Turbosmart Wastegate
2.5 inch Magnaflow full exhaust
AEM FIC Piggyback
SSQV Blow Off Valve
460cc RX-7 Injectors
FMIC
Walpro 255 Fuel Pump
MaXspeeding Forged Rods


I fought and fought with this set up. The car drove great but boost would only kick in at high speed which basically meant I only got to feel that push when I got on the freeway. Plus I was continually having problems with the AEM FIC piggyback. The car would idle great, drive great on vacuum, but once I hit boost the car's A/F ratios would shoot to 10.0. This is when I thought it was time to take a new direction with this build. In comes the 16G CT26 turbo and the Megasquirt DIYPNP standalone.




Around Dec 2015, I get the CT26 turbo installed and I start to have a serious oil leak plus high engine tens on boost. At this point I am ready to set the car back on fire. I go through and replace the head gasket and couple other seals but the car continues to leak. By Feb 2016 I am out of ideas so I take it to my mechanic. He spends about an hour with the car and runs dye through the engine. The results, every seal is leaking, wtf! At this point I am tired of working on this motor and I was happy to find a mechanic that would so he replaces all the seals. I drive the car home park it for the night, wake up in the morning, the engine is leaking AGAIN!

I take it back to the mechanic multiple times before we finally figure out I have high crankcase pressures and it is blowing out my seals. He brings his "Turbo Guy" in to look and the car and points out the fact that I do not have any crankcase venting routed back to the intake. So I build a custom intake out of intercooler piping, move the battery to the trunk and the problem was fixed.

Below, before custom built intake:


Below with custom built intake:


I take the car out to the track in May of 2016 to see how it will do only to find out I still have a lot of work.





Mainly suspension and the standalone ECU. The suspension is original to the car and the AEM piggyback is not working out. So I put some new KYB Excel G struts with some ground control coilover springs.





I get that all installed and start tuning the ECU using the autotune feature in TunerStudio. My set up is now the following:
12 psi boost
16G CT26 Turbo
2.5 inch Magnaflow full exhaust
76 pin DIYPNP
Electronic Boost controller
SSQV Blow Off Valve
460cc RX-7 Injectors
FMIC
Walpro 255 Fuel Pump
MaXspeeding Forged Rods
Ground Control Coilers with KYB struts
TRD front lip (side skirts being modified to fit)
Wings West Spoiler
VIS Carbon Fiber Hood - Zyclone style
2 piston calipers from Toyota Avalon

The car is running great then just this evening while driving the car BOOM, rod knock. DAMNIT! I love the look of this car and I love this car when it is running but this 5sfte turbo build has been nothing but a headache! I should be out eating Honda Civics and other ricers for breakfast not dealing with a temperamental car.

I am at a crossroads right now. I have learned a lot about motors on this car and I feel I have the knowledge now to do a swap. I am stubborn, this car WILL run boosted. This is what I am thinking:
1. Get a 3rd gen 3sgte (Use the 3sgte ECU or my DIYPNP and swap in my 16G CT26)
2. Get a 4th gen 3sgte (Use the 3sgte ECU or my DIYPNP)
3. Do a 5sgte build (really not sure about this one seem like it could cost ALOT)
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jun 9, 2016 - 12:23 AM

[HardHead93]

I have taken some time to reflect on my rod knock issue. I think I have 2 really good choices moving forward.
1. Rebuild the current engine but go with low compression pistons, webcams, and a high flow oil pump.
2. Get a 4th gen 3sgte and do a swap since I already have a front mount intercooler set up on the car.

Any suggestions?

[njccmd2002]

if you like turbo, go with a 4th gen engine. Proven engines, and becoming popular

[Smaay]

there are several vacuum lines that need to be blocked off so that you dont pressurize the crankcase. I also had trouble with the FIC. my advise, get the 4th gen. the cost to rebuild the 5S will be just about the same.

[HectortheRican]

Great read! Very unfortunate progress, but very exciting nonetheless. PM where in NM you are? I've never met anyone on here in 6 years that lives in NM!

[HardHead93]

I told a friend at work, who used to be a full time mechanic, about the situation I had with my car and he advised be to tear down the engine and take a look at the internals before making my decision on what to do with the engine. I decided to do that so it would at least be a learning experience on my motor. When I took the motor apart it was exactly what I expected. The bearing on the #4 rod had completely melted away and by wiggling the #3 bearing I could tell it was next. It looks like this happened from oil starvation on the rod bearing during a hard pull and the bearing furthest from the oil pump went out first.

I went back and read MrTurrari's turbo 5sfe write up again at http://warp.scl.utah.edu/mr2/Turbo5sfe.html. Given, he is talking about a 5sfe in an MR2 but it is basically the same thing. I came across a key thing I missed in my build from MrTurrari's write up:
"Oil Pump - Replace with a 98 5S-FE pump and shim the relief valve 1-1.5mm to get a higher pressure."

I was running a stock 97 oil pump with no shim. The 98+ Camry/Solara oil pumps have a higher flow. I told my friend about what I found. He asked me what shape was the crank and the rod in. I inspected the crank with a micrometer and found no damage except some oil burn marks. I also inspected the rod (remember it is forged) and it was not warped or damaged in any way just some discoloration from heat. I am guessing there is so little damage because I cut the engine and called a tow truck the moment I knew something was off. He advised to replace all the bearings (rod and main) and he said it was up to me but the rod should still be usable.

While I had the engine apart I decided to do some tranny work too. The tranny is original to the car which is now pushing 20 years old. I had the tranny cleaned, new seals, and inspected then put an LSD on the tranny. The shop that inspected the tranny said there was very little wear and all the gears worked perfectly. The LSD is on the left the old diff is on the right.

Here is the tranny all put back together and painted. It looks nice and pretty!








I know a lot of people were against me keeping the motor but I have put so much blood, sweat, and tears in to this engine build to stop right before the finish line. So instead of doing an engine swap, I bought new seals, new bearings, and a 98 Camry oil pump (shimmed the relief valve). I reassembled the engine and put it back into the car and it fired up and runs like a dream. Before at idle, full warmed up, the oil pressure was dropping to 8-9 psi at idle, now it holds steady at 20 psi. It was out about $200 in parts, excluding the tranny work that needed to be done no matter what I decided, and 2 weekends of wrench turning. Not bad.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Aug 7, 2016 - 8:52 PM

[ILoveMySilly97]

Nice to see you're giving the 5sfe another chance. My mr2 buddy just gave up on blowing up his couple of 5sfe so he went with a gen3 3sgte. Lol.

[Box]

Just finished reading everything, glad to see you were able to save the motor and hopefully now with the higher pressure oil pump you won't have any more issues. Given the circumstances I think you made the right and least expensive choice.

[enderswift]

You will absolutely LOVE that differential. I installed one into my S54 and it completely transformed the car. It is now a potent track machine and I love being able to use the 300hp whenever I want. Enjoy!


Just dont wheel hop or you'll bust teeth off of your gears... Ask me how I know...

[HardHead93]

You will absolutely LOVE that differential. I installed one into my S54 and it completely transformed the car. It is now a potent track machine and I love being able to use the 300hp whenever I want. Enjoy!


Just dont wheel hop or you'll bust teeth off of your gears... Ask me how I know...

That is a little scary. What can I do to prevent wheel hop? I hear stiffer motor mounts should help.

[enderswift]

poly engine mounts help... at the expense of smoothness I'm told. Personally I found that poly suspension mounts and sticky tires to be the biggest help without sacrificing comfort/smoothness

Also just be mindful and let off the power slightly if you start to hop. Don't try to ride it out like I did (I powered through wheel hop at the drag strip)

[HardHead93]

poly engine mounts help... at the expense of smoothness I'm told. Personally I found that poly suspension mounts and sticky tires to be the biggest help without sacrificing comfort/smoothness

Also just be mindful and let off the power slightly if you start to hop. Don't try to ride it out like I did (I powered through wheel hop at the drag strip)

How about these poly mounts?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-Celica-ST20...E-/201640326281?
Do you have bad engine vibrations with the stiffer mounts?

[HardHead93]

I just discovered a really stupid mistake while I was road tuning the car. My speedometer is off. Come to find out, I used the MR2 LSD speedo gear instead of the S54 open diff gear. DOH! While I was driving I saw the speedometer shooting up fast. Once it got to 80 mph, I knew something was off because I definitely wasn't going 80 mph. There is one of those speed sensor signs close to my house so I decided to drive past one. My speedometer read 55 mph while the sign was around 41-42 mph. I did some research and found out the MR2 speedo gear from the E153 has 30 teeth, while the S54 has 23 teeth. I do not feel like taking the engine back out and popping the tranny open again so I am looking to grab a speedo adjustment module. I was planning on upgrading the wheels and tires in a few months so I would need it anyways. Anyone have any suggestions on a good module? I am looking at the Dakota Digital one. Here is the link: http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/pag...prod/prd126.htm

[JordyTurbo]

This is a cautionary tale to anyone who thinks they are going to slap a turbo on a high mileage engine and run low boost. DON’T DO IT! In December of 2014 despite all the posts that say, don’t boost your engine unless it is low mileage or rebuilt, I went for it. Is the 5sfe a great engine to boost, yes, but do it right. This post will tell the LONG, expensive, frustrating story to creating my 5sfte. The below write up is what happened.

Background
It has been a long road for this 5sfte build. Here is the engine I started with:


I saw what Supershannon77 did with an Ebay T3/4 turbo for her 6th gen Celica 5sfte and I tried to duplicate it (with a few upgrades). I bought an Ebay kit with the idea that I would need to modify or replace some of the parts that came in it but the bottom line was it would give me a turbo, intercooler, exhaust manifold, downpipe, and some miscellaneous needed parts.

As I started the build I found the kit seriously lacking. The big one was the downpipe was for a CT26 turbo not a T3/4 so I had to order one. There was no oil return line and there was not enough intercooler piping. It took 3 months to resolve all the issues with the advertised “bolt-on” kit (there is no such thing as bolt on from Ebay), I ended up with the following build:


8 psi boost
T3/T04E Turbo
Turbosmart Wastegate
2.5 inch full exhaust
Magnaflow Muffler and Catalytic Converter
AEM FIC Piggyback
SSQV Blow Off Valve
460cc RX-7 Injectors
FMIC
Walpro 255 Fuel Pump
3sgte 3 Bar MAP Sensor
Custom downpipe from Demon Motorsports
Ebay tubular exhaust manifold

I started noticing when I would pop the hood after a drive that there was an extreme amount of heat coming out of the engine bay. I also saw that the under hood insulation was burning away. After doing some digging, I found that the tubular manifold I was using was giving off too much heat instead of shooting it down to the exhaust. I needed a 3sgte manifold. I went to the Toyota dealership and they told me that all their warehouses are out of stock and that the best bet was to find a used one. That led to one option, Ebay. After about a week of missing out on bids I finally scored a 3sgte manifold. It arrived and I was so excited, I ceramic coated it and put it on and the car was back!


Then another problem reared its head, the clutch started slipping. I bought a SPEC stage 2 clutch, got it installed and the car ran like a champ. In the process of tuning the car, I sprung a fuel leak that lead to an engine fire. I think it the Walpro fuel pump put too much pressure on the original lines coming from the fuel filter and something popped.




Now here I am, where I should have started. In hindsight I should have rebuilt the engine before going down the turbo route. My plan was to fix the fire damage and rebuild the engine to a 14-15 psi boost-able monster. My goal is 280-300 horsepower. Based on what I saw in Pressure2’s build, I can use stock pistons and rods but I will need a metal head gasket. I planned to swap the California cylinder head with a Federal head so the fuel injectors fit perfectly.

I read the post I'm happy you didn't give up ..you out so much work into that motor you now have an emotional connection to that engine I hope all works man great write up

[HardHead93]

Now I am getting a weird ticking noise under load, it is not RPM specific. It happens I start from a dead stop or whenever I get on the gas but not when I am cruising. I have checked and adjusted my camshaft clearances and they are now in spec. I also dropped the oil pan and checked the rod and main bearing and nothing has spun or is damaged. I re-torqued the exhaust manifold nuts and the exhaust nuts on the turbo. What else could I check?

[lagos]

Video of the noise would help.

[HardHead93]

Video of the noise would help.

Here is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WNzhiM2IwI...eature=youtu.be

You can faintly hear it behind the exhaust and turbo spool noise. I tried my best to get it to happen a few times in the video. Also, the ticking happens on a cold start. It makes about 3-4 ticks on a cold start then goes away. The ticking seems the loudest when under load in 1st or 2nd gear. Like I said in my earlier post, I am lost as to what it could be. By the way I have newly installed 294 Webcams on the motor, they are only 2 months old.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Sep 7, 2016 - 7:58 PM

[lagos]

Hmm it's hard to say for sure. I've had similar sounds coming from the downpipe support bracket that mounts to the engine. However you did do a pretty extensive rebuild. I would pick up a stethoscope to rule out any head or bottom end noises.

https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Mechanics-Stetho...ive+stethoscope

[HardHead93]

Hmm it's hard to say for sure. I've had similar sounds coming from the downpipe support bracket that mounts to the engine. However you did do a pretty extensive rebuild. I would pick up a stethoscope to rule out any head or bottom end noises.

https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Mechanics-Stetho...ive+stethoscope

Thanks! I will pick one of those stethoscopes and do some digging. What is weird is that ever since I beat on the car to make the video for you to listen to, the sound has gotten quieter and is almost gone. Could the sound be from the fact that I have not had a chance to really break the motor in due to all the issues I have been dealing with on the car?

[lagos]

You shouldn't be hearing anything during break in, but odd noises are bound to pop after ripping the motor out. I've had things like axle bearing mount, downpipe, timing belt bearings, suspension, etc... make odd noises in the past.

[HardHead93]

Well, I am official fed up with this engine. The ticking turned into knocking and it is no doubt it is rod knock. I checked the engine with a stethoscope and that confirmed it. I am done with the 5sfte, time to get a new motor. I am going 4th gen 3sgte. It was a great learning experience but I am tired of the headaches of this motor. What did I learn from this experience:

1. If you are going to turbo an engine go standalone from the start!
2. Don't be in a hurry, rushing only leads to mistakes that can cost later
3. Go with a forged low compression bottom end from the start, you are going to want more boost, trust me!
4. Listen to the experienced folks on 6gc.net, they have a lot of knowledge and experience
5. Because of this build, I went from a person who had only changed spark plugs and drained fluids to a person who is comfortable with getting dirty with a motor and pulling an engine when needed.
6. Lastly, your engine is not some magical Initial D machine just because you worked on it. You need to treat the engine with respect and know its limits.

I am going to take some time off from working on this car. It will give me time to gather parts and get a master plan together for this swap. I am thinking I will pick this up again sometime in the spring. Thanks for everyone who helped me out with their knowledge. I will either update this thread or start a new one once I begin the swap. Below is the latest picture of my dead 5sfte.

[lagos]

Sorry to hear about the problems, but glad that you see it as a good learning experience !

Overall, the 3sgte swap is pretty hard to beat and I think you'll love it when its all done.

[trdproven]

Too bad it was a really nice 5sfte setup

[jordisonjr]

5. Because of this build, I went from a person who had only changed spark plugs and drained fluids to a person who is comfortable with getting dirty with a motor and pulling an engine when needed.

This interests me. Where did you learn everything about what you were doing? Just reading on the forum here, or did you just figure it out as you go? (or both)

I've always considered doing a swap and may need to in the near future, however, like you did, I have very limited mechanical experience, aside from changing various suspensions parts, changing spark plugs and fluid changes.

I always think about it a swap, and what I would do if I got to a point where I got stuck, and how I would get the problem solved.

[HardHead93]

5. Because of this build, I went from a person who had only changed spark plugs and drained fluids to a person who is comfortable with getting dirty with a motor and pulling an engine when needed.

This interests me. Where did you learn everything about what you were doing? Just reading on the forum here, or did you just figure it out as you go? (or both)

I've always considered doing a swap and may need to in the near future, however, like you did, I have very limited mechanical experience, aside from changing various suspensions parts, changing spark plugs and fluid changes.

I always think about it a swap, and what I would do if I got to a point where I got stuck, and how I would get the problem solved.

When doing this build I read a lot of forums and asked a lot of questions on this forum and to local mechanics. The problem with the 5sfte swap is unless you go "all in" you are going to head down a rabbit hole that is going to take up a lot of your time and money. Now by "all in," I mean rebuild the engine with forged internals, go standalone ECU instead of piggyback, ensure you have a federal emissions cylinder head, get a high flow oil pump, get a high flow fuel pump, etc. Going with a 3sgte swap is a good idea because you are buying an engine that is made for performance and boost. The best places to get information are on this forum and a lot of the MR2 forums. Also, check out this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBHJZ_x0neI

It is of a person in his garage taking out a 5sfe from a Camry and rebuilding it. This video got me comfortable with pulling the motor out of my car. Some of the videos are blocked because of the music playing in the background so you may have to use a proxy server to view them all.
Another good video is this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz4hnJp7gxk

This video breaks down everything you need to put a 3sgte into a MR2. The nice thing about this video is that he also talks about the compatibility with the S54 transmission which comes on the 5sfe. I would also suggest buying a Haynes and Chilton manual. You will need them both because each one explains parts of the car differently. Most importantly, you need to ensure you have the proper tools for this job.

[jordisonjr]

Cool man, thanks for the tips!
Whatever you end up doing with the car; swapping or salvaging this motor, be sure to continue this thread! It was a good read.

[HardHead93]

I am shopping around for a 3sgte and I have a few questions I am having problems getting an answer for:

1. Does it matter if I get a 3sgte with an automatic or manual transmission ECU? (My Celica is an manual)
2. Which is better, a CT26 or the CT15B that comes with the motor? Everywhere I am reading they are very similar in performance. Does anyone have real world comparison of the two?
3. What are the best seals to replace on the motor before I drop it in the car? (I plan to do the rear main seal, oil pump seal, timing belt, thermostat, and oil pan seal at a minimum) The motor will have 50-60k miles.
4. Is there anything I should watch out for when picking my 4th gen 3sgte? Are there any gotchas that I need to be prepared for with this swap?
5. What is the resistor-tachometer fix that I keep hearing about?
6. With regular maintenance and the occasional track day how long should I expect the motor and turbo to last before needed a major overhaul?

I am hoping to pull the trigger on the motor some time in October, then gather the rest of the parts I need, and get the wiring harness done through the rest of the fall/winter. I will also be parting out what I do not need from the 5sfe since besides the rods and pistons, the rest of the engine is good.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Sep 23, 2016 - 10:42 PM

[HardHead93]

I am shopping around for a 3sgte and I have a few questions I am having problems getting an answer for:

1. Does it matter if I get a 3sgte with an automatic or manual transmission ECU? (My Celica is an manual)
2. Which is better, a CT26 or the CT15B that comes with the motor? Everywhere I am reading they are very similar in performance. Does anyone have real world comparison of the two?
3. What are the best seals to replace on the motor before I drop it in the car? (I plan to do the rear main seal, oil pump seal, timing belt, thermostat, and oil pan seal at a minimum) The motor will have 50-60k miles.
4. Is there anything I should watch out for when picking my 4th gen 3sgte? Are there any gotchas that I need to be prepared for with this swap?
5. What is the resistor-tachometer fix that I keep hearing about?
6. With regular maintenance and the occasional track day how long should I expect the motor and turbo to last before needed a major overhaul?

I am hoping to pull the trigger on the motor some time in October, then gather the rest of the parts I need, and get the wiring harness done through the rest of the fall/winter. I will also be parting out what I do not need from the 5sfe since besides the rods and pistons, the rest of the engine is good.

I did some looking around the 6gc.net site and found the following thread:

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=75910&st=0

It answered questions 2, 3, and 4. Could someone point me in the right direction to get the rest of the questions answered?

[lagos]

1. The ecu is slightly different between the automatic and manual versions of the car. The automatic might throw a CEL if there are some specific automatic sensors that it looks for. Personally I would just buy the manual version.

5. You need to modify the signal to the stock tach to make it read correctly. There should be an old post about it somewhere.

6. I installed my 2nd gen motor in 2004 and have since put about 110k miles since the swap. They are pretty reliable as far as turbo motors are concerned. Just make sure your seller provides you with compression test numbers and startup warranty.


Keep in mind that with the 4th gen motor you need to fully rewire the harness, while a 3rd gen motor is basically plug and play with the exception of about 4 wires. I would personally go with the 3rd gen motor.

[slavie]

Thanks for sharing the experience.

Having performed an autopsy on the engine, were you able to determine the cause of the demise? Fuel mixture problem? Timing problem?

To answer one of your questions:
1 (auto vs man ecu) Auto ECU will throw CEL for transmission shift solenoids. You can install a few large-ish resistors to overcome this - you can find details in some Gen3 Camry auto-to-manual swap threads. No impact on engine performance. Yes, easier to go with Manual ECU in the first place if you can, but not the end of the world if you cannot source one.

[HardHead93]

Thanks for sharing the experience.

Having performed an autopsy on the engine, were you able to determine the cause of the demise? Fuel mixture problem? Timing problem?

To answer one of your questions:
1 (auto vs man ecu) Auto ECU will throw CEL for transmission shift solenoids. You can install a few large-ish resistors to overcome this - you can find details in some Gen3 Camry auto-to-manual swap threads. No impact on engine performance. Yes, easier to go with Manual ECU in the first place if you can, but not the end of the world if you cannot source one.

I think the problem started with the rod knock on cylinder #4 from the first time I pulled the engine. That was caused by an oil flow issue from using the stock oil pump. If you turbo a 5sfe you need to get a 98+ camry/solara oil pump and shim the relief valve. When I recently pulled the motor again and took the engine apart I found the following issues.
1. Rod #1 had some small play in it so that was where the knock was coming from
2. Rod #4 had a spun bearing
My guess is that either the rod or the crank was no longer round on those 2 cylinders and replacing the bearings was not going to fix the problem. What I should have done when I pulled the motor the first time was have the crank and rods machined to a set clearance and buy the proper bearings from there. Lesson learned, like I said I am done with the 5sfte and am excited to go 4th gen 3sgte. I am currently parting out the engine on Ebay and have a thread on it here: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=97194

As for the 3sgte, it is funny you bring that up. I just pulled the trigger on a 4th gen 3sgte with a manual transmission ECU. I decided to go with that ECU because the engine it came with was in the best shape. I will pull the 3s wiring harness and send it off to Wiregap with the 5s harness once the engine arrives. While they are building my new harness I plan to get the tune up kit from MR2 Prime and the 3" downpipe. I plan to reuse my Spec clutch disk off the 5sfe because it maybe has 1500 miles on it since I installed it and get a 3s pressure plate and lightweight flywheel.

I know I said I planned to wait on the 3sgte for a few months but a great deal for one came up. When I walk by my Celica with an empty engine bay everyday on my way to work, it drives me crazy. Also, seeing all these 5sfte parts sitting next to the car does not help either.


To be continued. . .

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Oct 6, 2016 - 10:56 PM

[HardHead93]

Does anyone have any tips for cleaning and painting an engine bay? I have burn marks from an old engine fire. Now that the engine is out of the car I would like to clean some of that mess up.

[HardHead93]

Does anyone have any tips for cleaning and painting an engine bay? I have burn marks from an old engine fire. Now that the engine is out of the car I would like to clean some of that mess up.

Nevermind, I got my questions answered in this thread:
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=97213

[HardHead93]

I am really excited my 4th gen 3sgte came in today. I inspected it and it looks good to go. The only problem was they sent an automatic transmission ECU instead of manual. Oh well, it will still work. I guess a lot of other guys run A/T ECUs too.






This post has been edited by HardHead93: Oct 11, 2016 - 7:53 PM

[slavie]

Nice!

Some will argue that auto engines are better as auto tranny won't let you molest the engine as much. Of course, that's just one of the million factors in play, but maybe it's true in your case.

[HardHead93]

I got the valve cover off and the wiring sent off to wire gap. In the meantime I am going to swap the downpipes and replace the seals.

Nice!

Some will argue that auto engines are better as auto tranny won't let you molest the engine as much. Of course, that's just one of the million factors in play, but maybe it's true in your case.

Good to hear, I am hoping after I freshen up the motor, I get 100K miles with little to no problems. Toyota motors will run forever if you keep up the maintenance.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Oct 16, 2016 - 10:06 AM

[xman92]

Wow, you are relentless.. Can't wait for this write up. This is the swap I want to go with. Keep us posted. Good Luck.

[HardHead93]

Wow, you are relentless.. Can't wait for this write up. This is the swap I want to go with. Keep us posted. Good Luck.

I wish I would have went this route from the beginning. It definitely would have saved me a lot of headaches. I cannot wait until I have this beast back on the road.

[HardHead93]

I have started the process of breaking down the engine so it is ready to go once the tune up kit arrives from MR2 Prime. Below is a picture of the timing belt before I removed it. This will make it easier for me to reinstall it when the time comes.


Below are some pics of the motor taken down to the point I need it to be.




I removed the upper and lower oil pain, oil pump, and camshaft gears. I plan to replace the following parts for the tune up:
1. Crankshaft seal rear
2. PCV grommet
3. Valve cover gaskets
4. Water pump and gasket
5. Timing belt - Sun brand
6. Timing belt tensioner
7. Thermostat and gasket
8. Spark plugs
9. Lower timing idler
​10. Oil pump o-ring and seal
11. Camshaft Seals
12. Convert to 3 inch cat-less downpipe
13. Light weight flywheel
14. Axle Seals
15. Magnet Oil Pan plug
I also picked up a JOBD to OBDII reader since the OBDII ports will output codes in JOBD format.

[lagos]

Keep up the great work!

[HardHead93]

Keep up the great work!

Thanks! I am itching to get back on the road. I need to make sure I take my time and do things right.

[HardHead93]

I got some of my goodies in for the swap.

There is my lightweight flywheel, 3sgte pressure plate, and tach adapter. I plan to reuse my SPEC Stage 2 5sfe clutch disk because it only has about 3K miles on it. The tach adapter will ensure my tachometer works with the new different tach signal from the ECU.

[HardHead93]

Just got my valve cover back after being powder coated. It looks good.

[HardHead93]

I got all my wiring back from Wiregap and it looks awesome! I started reassembling the engine and my goal it to have it back in the car by the end of the weekend.



Getting to the oil pump is a pain in the butt. There are 2 oil pans on this motor (upper and lower) and they both have different torque specs. I used a liberal amount of FIPG to make sure I would have no leaks. Also, the water pump is a tough on too. I got some blue gasket maker for those seals to ensure I had no water leaks. After double and triple checking my torque specs with my handy Snap On torque wrench, I think the engine is ready to go back into the car.


The wiring done by Wiregap fits great. You can tell they have done this before. Every wire was just the right length with very little slack. They even put the clips that attach to the intake manifold on to make it hang perfectly above the fuel injectors.

[HardHead93]

***

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Nov 12, 2016 - 8:56 PM

[HardHead93]

I was excited and ready to do this thing! I had the tranny attached to the 3sgte and I was ready to go.


This turned into a tough day! I expected to be further along. I started the day with the idea that I was going to put the motor in the car and fire it up but that did not happen. The guy who powder coated my valve cover got paint into one of the bolt holes that hold the ignition coil in place. I started that bolt in that hole and within a couple turns it got hard to turn the bolt then the head of the bolt snapped off. DOH! I then spend the next 2 hours trying everything to get what was left of the bolt out. I ended up having to drill it out and re-thread the hole. After that I had problems getting the engine into the car because the 2 hangers for the engine are not lined up like on the 5sfe. This meant I had to fight with the engine and the hoist to get everything lined up straight. Good news is the engine is in and on 2 of the motor mounts, bad news is that it is the end of the day and I will have to pick this up in the morning. I hope I can have this done by the end of the weekend.


This post has been edited by HardHead93: Nov 12, 2016 - 9:45 PM

[HardHead93]

Got the wiring, intercooler piping and radiator in.

[HardHead93]

I have everything hooked up and the car will not start, I just hear one click from the fuel pump relay then nothing. Also, my stereo and my aftermarket gauges to not turn on when I turn the key to on (they are wired together). I am banging my head against the wall on this one! I have tested the battery and it reads 12V and when I attempted to jump the car the same thing happened. Does anyone have any ideas?

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Nov 17, 2016 - 10:45 PM

[slavie]

If it won't even crank, something is not getting the power. Starter is on an almost completely separate circuit from the ECU, so the car should crank under almost any condition so long as it's getting power. It may not start for many reasons, but it should at least crank.

Get your multimeter out and start tracing wires. Check fuses for accessories, maybe something is shorting somewhere. Check accessory power. Check whether starter relay is getting power, check Neutral Safety Switch, check power to starter.

Once you've traced where the power stops, remedy and try again. Don't rule out loose connectors or even ones that may not have been plugged in.

It's annoying, but not unsolvable.

This post has been edited by slavie: Nov 18, 2016 - 5:32 PM

[richee3]

Does everything work inside the car besides the gauges and radio?

[HardHead93]

Does everything work inside the car besides the gauges and radio?

I just checked, none of the warning dash lights come on when I turn the key and the AC vents won't turn on. The only think that works are the car's interior are the dash lights and the hazard light button. I checked all the fuses under the hood and in the driver side kick panel and they all tested fine. I combed through some wiring diagrams and it seems like everything that stopped working is hooked to some type of switched power source.

This looks like it may be the ignition switch. Am I on the right track? What is weird is that the car started fine when I pulled the 5sfte. Can an ignition switch go bad from an engine swap?

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Nov 19, 2016 - 10:16 AM

[HardHead93]

I replaced the ignition switch and starter relay, still nothing. I started to think maybe it was the kill switch on the alarm so I checked it out and that is not the case. At this point I started going around the car with a multimeter. It is weird, I am getting power on all fuses except, on the AM1 and CIG&RAD. The ST and IGN fuses get power when I turn the key the appropriate position. Also, the ECU B+ (12V switched) pinout is not seeing power when the key is turned but the BATT pinout is seeing power. This sounds like something is wrong with my switched 12V power. I need to test the 100A ALT fuse because that feeds the AM1 but that one is a pain in the butt to test since it is screwed into the fuse box.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Nov 19, 2016 - 10:28 PM

[HardHead93]

After testing wires then looking at wiring diagrams, testing wires then looking at wiring diagrams, testing wires then looking at wiring diagrams . . . . . . , testing wires then looking at wiring diagrams I found the main engine relay to be the culprit. I replaced the relay plugged everything up and SUCCESS! WOO HOO! The 3sgte came to life! I still have to put the rest of the car back together but for now, the engine runs. I will post a video once I get the car all back together and off of jack stands. Thanks for all the pointers everyone has provided.

[xman92]

Like a soap opera. Can't wait for the next episode. Great Job..

[HardHead93]

I have finally gotten the car completely back together. To finish off the build, I had a local machine shop cut, shorten, and solder my throttle cable. This evening I started the engine, topped off the fluids, and let the car get up to temperature. When I did that I found 2 problems. The oil pan plug has a slow leak. It looks like I will need a new crush washer and some teflon tape. The other issue is the fuel filter has a small leak. The leaks is not very fast but I have a new filter on order and I will not drive the car until I get the leak fixed (I do not want another engine bay fire).

I am also noticing the clutch feels a lot harder than before and I stalled the engine twice backing it out of the driveway. I am guessing the pedal stiffness is the new Exedy pressure plate I have paired with my SPEC stage 2 clutch. I am really excited to drive the car, see how it feels, and revs with the new lightweight flywheel. More to come once I test drive the car. Here is picture of the engine completely back together in the car.

[HardHead93]

I have been driving the car for the last few days to and from work and everything is working very well. The only issue I am having is that the car won't boost past 7-8 psi. I reached out to MR2 PRIME and the said that was the stock wastegate pressure and I need to add a boost controller. I checked the wastegate before I put the engine in the car and it opened at 7 psi like it is supposed to. I thought the turbo vsv would turn the boost up to 13-14 psi in 3rd gear and higher. This must mean my turbo vsv is not working properly. Does anyone know how to check it or does it just not work in a swapped car? The part number for the turbo vsv is 90910-12114.

[HardHead93]

Here are some pics of the car with the 4th gen 3sgte. It is running like a dream.




Giving props to PRIME MR2, those guys helped me out a lot over the phone and I bought a lot of parts from them.


The FMIC give the car a nice smile!




My Magnaflow 2.5 inch exhaust.

Boost on the steering column, water temp, oil pressure, and air/fuel ratio on the pillar.

[richee3]

Looks awesome, glad you get it running right!

[HardHead93]

Here is a video walk around. ENJOY!
https://youtu.be/dO9D_1jgr7U

[HardHead93]

I just went out for a little bit of spirited driving and OH MAN! This engine is crazy! I am only running 7-8 psi (stock wastegate pressure) and the car keeps breaking loose the front tires, especially in turns. I think part of it is the MR2 LSD I have in the S54 tranny because soon as the boost hits 5-7 psi I feel the tires give a little bit. This engine is awesome! I am afraid to turn the boost up to 15 psi where I want it to be. I guess it is time to save for some better tires.

[richee3]

I am afraid to turn the boost up to 15 psi where I want it to be.

[HardHead93]

Haha! I just turned the boost up to 12 psi today. Whoa! I am loving it. The CT15B turbo boost comes on fast and I like it. The only thing is that it shoots up to 12 real quick then levels off at 10 once I get to 5K RPM. I will play with the boost controller to get it set right at 15 psi.

[HardHead93]

Within the last few days I started getting a whine from the car whenever I push the clutch in but it goes away as soon as the clutch is fully engaged or fully disenaged. It even happens if I ride the clutch without fully disengaging it. Everything is pointing to the throw out bearing. CRAP! I just got the car all back together and now this. The sad thing is that this is a fairly new throwout bearing that came with my SPEC stage 2 clutch. If I had to guess, there is less than 2000 miles on this throwout bearing. Is the throwout bearing going bad or is it just going to make that noise because it is not an OEM part?

[HardHead93]

Within the last few days I started getting a whine from the car whenever I push the clutch in but it goes away as soon as the clutch is fully engaged or fully disenaged. It even happens if I ride the clutch without fully disengaging it. Everything is pointing to the throw out bearing. CRAP! I just got the car all back together and now this. The sad thing is that this is a fairly new throwout bearing that came with my SPEC stage 2 clutch. If I had to guess, there is less than 2000 miles on this throwout bearing. Is the throwout bearing going bad or is it just going to make that noise because it is not an OEM part?

It looks like I will be dropping the tranny and replacing the throw out bearing and applying grease. That should correct the problem. I will be documenting the work in the following thread:
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...p;#entry1087219

[DarkDeath]

Haha! I just turned the boost up to 12 psi today. Whoa! I am loving it. The CT15B turbo boost comes on fast and I like it. The only thing is that it shoots up to 12 real quick then levels off at 10 once I get to 5K RPM. I will play with the boost controller to get it set right at 15 psi.

Let me know how it goes when you raise it to 15! I plan to be around 15 to 17 (peak) so I'm curious as well hahaha. Great stuff so far man, hopefully all the other kinks will wear off soon!

Cheers

[HardHead93]

Haha! I just turned the boost up to 12 psi today. Whoa! I am loving it. The CT15B turbo boost comes on fast and I like it. The only thing is that it shoots up to 12 real quick then levels off at 10 once I get to 5K RPM. I will play with the boost controller to get it set right at 15 psi.

Let me know how it goes when you raise it to 15! I plan to be around 15 to 17 (peak) so I'm curious as well hahaha. Great stuff so far man, hopefully all the other kinks will wear off soon!

Cheers

I have raised the boost to 15 psi and holy crap! The car pulls like crazy! Even with the LSD in the tranny, I get a little bit a torque steer. I am loving the way the car feels and I cannot wait to take it out to the track.

[HardHead93]

And the saga continues. . . . .

I was struggling with some engine heat problems with my 3sgte. The engine would run fine but any long stretches on the highway would cause engine temps to rise, not overheat but get a little warmer than I would like to see (around 215 F). I was scratching my head on this one so I changed out the thermostat (even though he one on the engine was brand new), went from my 2 row radiator back to a stock one, and put the stock radiator fans back on (I was using an aftermarket shroud and fans before). Then the problem went away. The car ran fine and temps would bounce between 195 and 205 F. I made all those changes about a week ago.

Fast forward to yesterday and I had the intercooler coupler close to the turbo pop off after a hard pull. I thought, no biggie, it has happened to me before. I replaced the T-clamp and everything was fine. The interesting thing was when the intercooler pipe came loose, it sprayed oil all throughout the engine bay. At first I thought the turbo seals were leaking but after taking a look inside the intake, I found it to be blow by from the crankcase vent routing back to the intake. I ordered a catch can last night and thought that was all I would need.

Then today, I decided to take the car for a spin on a couple back roads. I did a couple short pulls and the car was doing great for a while. Then the engine temps started to rise like the problem I was having before. I turned the heat on full blast and it helped. As I turned around to take the car home, then engine started knocking. Crap! I have heard that sound before on my 5sfte. The knock quickly turned to a banging and then I pulled over and cut the motor.

I think I got a bad 4th gen 3sgte (bad head gasket and worn piston rings). I was only running 14 psi and when the car started overheating and knocking. I wasn't in boost and I have put a total of 1000k miles on this motor since the swap (did my first oil change at 500 miles to make sure any crap that had settled in the motor was out). Also, the engine has a 7k RPM redline and I never went over 6k on the rpms. I am so frustrated with my 6th gen Celica. I feel like I am at a crossroads here with this car. I am thinking of going one of 4 ways:

1. I have an e-mail out to the company that sold me this motor because it is BS that this motor died so fast. I am hoping they will be able to work something out to get me another motor or refund.
2. If #1 does not work, after a little bit of a break, I am thinking of rebuilding the motor with all forged internals and ARP head stuts so I will never have to worry about rod knock again. I still have my 5s block so maybe a 5sgte????
3. Or if I do not feel up to doing #2, get another 3sgte and swap the wiring over.
4. Last choice is to sell the car as is. Someone else can get a 4th gen 3sgte, swap over the wiring and have a good running car with some decent supporting mods.

Let me know what you guys think. Oh yeah and Happy New Year!

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Dec 31, 2016 - 8:34 PM

[enderswift]

It's really hard to kill a 3SGTE. They can take a beating all day long in triple digit heat without issue. I boost 20+ psi on my 3rd gen and bang through the gears at 7k on my commute to work. I've been doing this for the past 40k....These engines are STRONG

In my opinion your engine was knocking and you didn't realize it. The reason I say this is because a common symptom of knock is rising coolant temps. knock breaks through the thin insulating film in the combustion chamber and exposes the cylinders to the full heat combustion, thus raising temps.Don't believe such an insulating film exists? ask yourself how an aluminum piston doesn't melt during normal driving...

Also the stock cooling setup can handle the 3sgte no problem. So considering you replaced everything and yet the temps still rose, I'd say knock was dumping heat into the system. Knock also puts crank and connecting rod bearings through hell, leading to similar damage to oil starvation.

It look like you know what you're doing, and I'm not insulting the quality of your build. I just want to convey that knock can be sneaky and lead to a situation like this.

I think I got a bad 4th gen 3sgte (bad head gasket and worn piston rings). I was only running 14 psi and when the car started overheating and knocking. I wasn't in boost and I have put a total of 1000k miles on this motor since the swap (did my first oil change at 500 miles to make sure any crap that had settled in the motor was out)

Only a compression test, leakdown test, or hydrocarbon test can confirm whether your head gasket/rings are shot. Thing is, a knocking engine can absolutely cause both of these as well.

Anyway, I only raise boost with the proper supporting mods in place. Colder plugs and water injection are good for staving off knock into the low 20 psi range. A handful of other guys on here will agree. Consider doing the same if you get a replacement engine

Good luck

This post has been edited by enderswift: Jan 1, 2017 - 3:01 PM

[HardHead93]

Thanks for the information. I am wondering what was causing the knock. I have been running colder NGK BKR7E plugs and I was having heat issues even when the engine was set at 7 psi before I ran a boost controller. Like you said, it is hard to kill a 3sgte, and with me taking it a lightly as a did for these initial miles, I am really thinking I was sold an engine that was not well taken care of by the previous owner. Most people run 16 psi with no problems on these engines with the exact set up I have. I read that the PRIMEMR2 guys run into this occasionally where they get a 4th gen that is either dead or dying. Just my bad luck.

I know hindsight is 20/20 but I really wish I would have took the cylinder head off and inspected the pistons and bearings with a little more detail. Sure it would have cost me at a minimum a head gasket but it would have given me piece of mind. Looking back I did notice a dark yellowish/orange tint to the cams and cylinder head under the valve cover. That is a telling sign of a higher mileage or abused engine, maybe over 60K miles like advertised to me. Also, now that I think about it, the highest Octane around here is 91, could that have caused the knock problem? It may be something other than the gas because I was having heat issues at 7 psi. Like I said in the previous post, I was having some large amounts of oil in the blow by even while not on boost, is that normal?

I am really hoping when I pull the engine that there is not too much scaring on the crankshaft so I can get it machined. I am definitely leaning towards rebuilding the motor with forged rods and pistons. Even if I get another motor because I cannot save this one, I am going to rebuild it with forged internals before I put it in. I am not going to sit back and hope my next JDM motor was treated well before it was handed to me. But who knows, I am still not against selling the car and getting another project down the road.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jan 1, 2017 - 5:19 PM

[jordisonjr]

I would definitely contact the company that sold you the motor. Regardless if it was an issue that they sold you, or something that occurred while the motor was in your possession, it doesn't hurt to try. maybe they will be accommodating and help you out. I had a buddy who bought a skyline that a company imported, blew the motor within two weeks, and they helped him source a new engine and rebuild at a discounted rate, so you never know.

It really sucks that this has happened after you've put so much time and effort into it. I'd hate to see you give up and simply sell the car though

[HardHead93]

So after a lot of cussing, kicking, and screaming, I decided to get back to work on fixing this car. I pulled the motor and broke it all the way down to determine what failed.
Mostly apart:

Cylinder head looks pretty worn and I am not liking all that black on the intake cam:

The bare 3s block:

All the 3sgte parts:

Engine bay:


What I found was rod knock on cylinder #1. The rod was black from the excessive heat. I inspected all the rods and it looked as if the previous owner of the car either did not take care of the engine or there was more than 60K mile on the motor. When I opened up my 130K mile 5sfe, the bearings did not look as worn as these ones. Oh well, time to move on.

I decided to get another 3sgte instead of rebuilding the other one. I just got it in today and hopefully this time it will go well. Here is the 3s on the truck once I got home from the warehouse:

Now on the ground next to the 3s block:

Another shot of the 2nd 3sgte:


I will swap over parts that I replaced from the other 3sgte. Then replace the oil pump and rear main seal and drop the engine back in. My goal is to have this all done by the end of the 3 day weekend. (Deep breath) Time to get to work!

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jan 13, 2017 - 8:32 PM

[HardHead93]

So I am part way through getting the motor ready for the car. It looks like the first 3sgte I bought was severely worn out. I figured this out when I took off the valve cover on the 2nd motor I got. Here is the 1st motor with the valve cover off:

Here is the 2nd motor with the valve cover off:

There is a BIG difference between the two. I found this write up on the Wiretap site that tells you what to look for in a motor and to determine its quality.
http://www.wiregapinc.com/2013/02/buying-a-used-motor/
As you can see the first motor has a lot of dark yellow and black coloration in the cylinder head which means the engine should have been rebuilt before it was put into the car. Less than 60K miles my a**!
On the 2nd motor it also looks like someone has recently replaced the water pump. The pump looks almost brand new. Score!!!!

I am finishing up replacing the oil pump and rear main seal then I will drop the engine back in.

[slavie]

I hope you were able to get at least some money/discount back on the crap motor... Sure, you can part it out, but that takes lots of time and good amount of effort before you see that money back.

Props on determination. Let's hope you've got enough karma points with the car by now that it will let you have some fun at last.

[HardHead93]

I feel like I have been here before. . . Oh wait, I have, the first time I did this motor swap. The clutch and tranny are attached to the motor and it is ready to go back into the car. Fingers crossed!

[Wild202]

Good luck to you.
Perhaps it was necessary to immediately change the path for the connecting rods 3 gene.
What do you think?

[HardHead93]

I have the engine back in the car, here is a video of one of my first starts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wVM86aUXhY

Maybe I am being paranoid but when the engine is completely warm, I am hearing a very faint ticking. Does anyone know what it could be? I hope it is not another bearing.

[slavie]

I have the engine back in the car, here is a video of one of my first starts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wVM86aUXhY

Maybe I am being paranoid but when the engine is completely warm, I am hearing a very faint ticking. Does anyone know what it could be? I hope it is not another bearing.

My guess is valve tick - valve clearances a bit high. Happens to my 5S when warmed up, such as after a lengthy drive. Not a big deal - may be a tad down on power due to valves open less than designed, but that's about it. May want to check at some point.

[HardHead93]

I have the engine back in the car, here is a video of one of my first starts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wVM86aUXhY

Maybe I am being paranoid but when the engine is completely warm, I am hearing a very faint ticking. Does anyone know what it could be? I hope it is not another bearing.

My guess is valve tick - valve clearances a bit high. Happens to my 5S when warmed up, such as after a lengthy drive. Not a big deal - may be a tad down on power due to valves open less than designed, but that's about it. May want to check at some point.

I plan to check the valve clearances and replace the rod bearings today just to be safe. I have already done a compression test and double checked the gaps on my spark plugs. The compression test came out with 160-180 psi on all cylinders. I am using NGK copper plugs gapped to 0.028.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jan 22, 2017 - 11:42 AM

[Wild202]

Do not you have disassembled the engine before putting it on the machine?
Obviously, this had to be done. check the status of the pistons, rings, liners, rubber seals.
Before installation, set the valve clearances.
You just set it and run?

[HardHead93]

I dropped the upper and lower oil pan. Then I checked the bearings. All the bearings are in great condition. Phew! Here are some pics of some of the bearings. They all pretty much looked the same.






Once I get the bottom end back together I will check the valve clearances.

[Wild202]

Why sealant black? At Toyota it is usually red.

[HardHead93]

Why sealant black? At Toyota it is usually red.

The Toyota FIPG is black. I get it from the local Toyota dealership. I believe the Toyota transmission sealant is red.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jan 24, 2017 - 6:51 PM

[slavie]

That engine looks squeaky clean.

All you gotta do now is try to put it all behind and drive the hell out of it.

Every time someone comments on my driving style, my response is: I fix them hard, I drive them hard.

[HardHead93]

The car is now back together and running. I just finished burping the coolant system and plan to take it out for a drive tomorrow. I switched back to my 2 row radiator and got rid of the aftermarket fan shroud. After doing some research an aftermarket fan shroud needs to be 1.5 inches deep or else the radiator will not get enough air flow. I decided to mount the fans directly to the radiator because that is the best option if you cannot find a quality shroud. I noticed the car cooled down even better than the stock radiator with the stock fan shrouds. Also the fans kicked on sooner and moved more air than the stock fans. AWESOME! Here is a pic of both radiators side by side:


This post has been edited by HardHead93: Jan 25, 2017 - 11:22 PM

[HardHead93]

So I have engine #2 in the car and running. Here is a pic of it:

I decided to put an oil catch can on this motor so no blow by oil would get into the turbo and the intake. The catch can I bought has the option to be run either with or without a filter on it. What is better, a sealed catch can or one with a filter on top?

[HardHead93]

So I found this old thread on oil catch cans.

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...65248&st=20

It still isn't clear if a 3sgte should have a sealed or vented catch can.

[slavie]

I'm not sure if I have this topic completely understood, but here's where my thinking lies at the moment:

I would do sealed (and am going to when I to finally installing my catch can).

You have two hoses:
VC to manifold, with a check valve in between
VC to vacuum side of intake (after filter), no check valve

Under vacuum, airflow goes intake - vc - manifold. Vacuum is higher in the manifold than further up the line in the intake, so the pressure differential causes the air flow through the PCV system.
Under boost, check valve in first hose closes (so as not to pressurize the crankcase) and air goes VC to intake pre-turbo vacuum.
The second scenario is where most of the oil covering your intake and intercooler comes from (assuming turbo isn't leaking). Hence, I'm going to put the catch can on the VC to intake hose line.

Vents I believe are for either NA cars or older systems that were not closed loop from the factory. If you put a vented catch can on 3sgte you will have eliminated the vacuum pulling the crankcase gasses and would just allow the crankcase pressure release on it's own - a less effective system, if you ask me.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: Couldn't get it out of my head, kept researching. Turns out, if you "vent" the catch can to atmosphere, you'll have essentially created an unmetered vacuum leak under vacuum. Now, this would've been an issue with Gen2, which had the A/F meter, but probably has much less effect on MAP based Gen4. Still, something to consider for EFI systems.

This post has been edited by slavie: Jan 31, 2017 - 3:30 PM