7AFTE, Tuning Question Options

[celicomx]

I'm currently building a 7AFTE, my question is, go FMU? or SAFC witch 350cc Injectors? I'm going to boost less than 10psi, so any advice is welcome.

[celicomx]

Bump! No one?

[matts94celica]

On mine I got a safc-II and a fmu 12:1. I'm still building it at the moment so no boost yet. But I've heard people say fmu is good for low boost but having ability to tune can help more

[celicomx]

On mine I got a safc-II and a fmu 12:1. I'm still building it at the moment so no boost yet. But I've heard people say fmu is good for low boost but having ability to tune can help more

So your suggestion is to use both?

[mandrek]

been doing allot of reading on these types of setups.. FMU gives you a mechanical way of delivering fuel, but the piggy back is allot more precise.. for my own planned set up i will be going with a rising rate FPR, and the greddy ultimate E-manage.. since the e-manage gives better control over ignition timing. (or at least that is what i have been reading) the key is that with one yout tune is linier and the other it is tuned on a curve.. (still have to do more reading on this, but i DO know that if you are tuning with a rising rate FPR, that the method is different than tuning a setup w/o one..

[celicomx]

ok. lets go SAFC-II way, there's any tutorial for turbo tuning in a toyota? i've been searching and i can't find anything

[matts94celica]

i was just going to take mine to a dyno to get it tuned

[Smaay]

you dont need an FMU with 350 injectors. the SAFC will do the job. i do suggest something a little more powerful though.

[Syaoran]

I think the SAFC will be just fine... I would recommend you do the "gray wire" / "boosted safc" modification if anything. It's much better overall than tuning by throttle position.

http://www.alltrac.net/mods/boostedSAFC.html

This post has been edited by Syaoran: Feb 12, 2012 - 3:35 PM

[celicomx]

I think the SAFC will be just fine... I would recommend you do the "gray wire" / "boosted safc" modification if anything. It's much better overall than tuning by throttle position.

http://www.alltrac.net/mods/boostedSAFC.html

thanks!

[celicomx]

you dont need an FMU with 350 injectors. the SAFC will do the job. i do suggest something a little more powerful though.

380's maybe?

[evo_lucian]

No need for bigger injectors when using a fmu. The fmu is meant to be used with stock injectors and it simply bumps the fuel pressure by a preset ratio for every psi of boost . So for example if you buy a 5:1 fmu and you have a base fuel pressure of about 40 psi, for every lb of boost your fuel pressure will go up by 5 psi .

0 psi boost = 40 + (0 x 5)= 40 psi fuel pressure
1 psi boost = 40 + (1 x 5)= 45 psi fuel pressure
5 psi boost = 40 + (5 x 5)= 65 psi fuel pressure
7 psi boost = 40 + (7 x 5)= 75 psi fuel pressure

Safc is a good cheap device if you on a budget but it has a really bad disadvantage. When you use bigger injectors and a safc to trim , everytime you take off fuel through the safc the ignition timing actually advances which is very bad. The more trimming you fuel injectors need the more you timing is advanced.

My suggestions if you cannot afford a proper standalone or proper piggyback (AEM FIC).

Option 1 : Fmu and better fuel pump on stock injectors.

Option 2 : 2 bar Toyota map sensor + fuel injectors approx 2x the size of your stock injectors and a good fuel pump.

[celicomx]

No need for bigger injectors when using a fmu. The fmu is meant to be used with stock injectors and it simply bumps the fuel pressure by a preset ratio for every psi of boost . So for example if you buy a 5:1 fmu and you have a base fuel pressure of about 40 psi, for every lb of boost your fuel pressure will go up by 5 psi .

0 psi boost = 40 + (0 x 5)= 40 psi fuel pressure
1 psi boost = 40 + (1 x 5)= 45 psi fuel pressure
5 psi boost = 40 + (5 x 5)= 65 psi fuel pressure
7 psi boost = 40 + (7 x 5)= 75 psi fuel pressure

Safc is a good cheap device if you on a budget but it has a really bad disadvantage. When you use bigger injectors and a safc to trim , everytime you take off fuel through the safc the ignition timing actually advances which is very bad. The more trimming you fuel injectors need the more you timing is advanced.

My suggestions if you cannot afford a proper standalone or proper piggyback (AEM FIC).

Option 1 : Fmu and better fuel pump on stock injectors.

Option 2 : 2 bar Toyota map sensor + fuel injectors approx 2x the size of your stock injectors and a good fuel pump.

Thank you very much!

[batcavee00]

Yea dude safc is wat better than a fmu. Im in the middle of tunning my 5sfte with 460 injectors. Its my first time using one, and I found it easy to use. You should be able to tune your 315s no problem. Im using the safc2

[Micky_lovescelic...]

I'm currently building a 7AFTE, my question is, go FMU? or SAFC witch 350cc Injectors? I'm going to boost less than 10psi, so any advice is welcome.

315cc injectors ( assuming ) that they are balenced and in good order. Are good for about 252hp. I like to side on caution and say that with age of
most fuel systems, pumps, thus you probably can support only about 214hp. You don't want to be operating at maximum injector cycle duties and
should have a buffer zone.

350cc is good for about 280hp. However, I ponder if the injector drivers are capable of supporting such large injectors. I expect very poor control.

With that said you need to understand how other aspects work, the factory 7AFE injectors aren't big by any means, they are something like 180cc.

Beyond that, The Apex-i SAFC or NEO etc, such systems are really only good for fuel corrections, not comparable to standalone management.

What these systems do is alter / modife the signal that is being sent to the ( factory engine-management. ) Where as something like a true piggy back like a e-manage or e-manage ultimate actually acts as a standalone.

It keeps the factory original ECU in a closed loop state, basically the ECU thinks everything is operating as normal. And the E-management and corrisponding sensors and so on are communicating. However, you still have to work within the factory limitations of the factory architecture.

I don't know how extensive you have built your 7AFE or 7AFTE as you call it. But, 10 psi is a tad ambitious with a Apex SAFC II. Sounds like you are using the old ( dump a lot of fuel and pray method. = ) You are better off with a smaller high response turbo and well balenced induction system using maybe 4.5~6psi tops. A well sorted low pressure, high response
system is superior to lots of lag and huge amounts of power.

One of the aspects of my job is that I not only design the hardware but the software as well for engine-management systems and ancilary devices.
Beyond this and amongest other terribly borning stuff, I have pretty much used every major competitive engine-management system on the market.

Good luck,
Mick

PS, It all depends on how extensive you want to get and how well refined.
Remember the fuel is only one aspect, induction systems are a multitude of parameters and beyond that
we haven't discussed the ignition system. ^_^

[celicomx]

I'm currently building a 7AFTE, my question is, go FMU? or SAFC witch 350cc Injectors? I'm going to boost less than 10psi, so any advice is welcome.

315cc injectors ( assuming ) that they are balenced and in good order. Are good for about 252hp. I like to side on caution and say that with age of
most fuel systems, pumps, thus you probably can support only about 214hp. You don't want to be operating at maximum injector cycle duties and
should have a buffer zone.

350cc is good for about 280hp. However, I ponder if the injector drivers are capable of supporting such large injectors. I expect very poor control.

With that said you need to understand how other aspects work, the factory 7AFE injectors aren't big by any means, they are something like 180cc.

Beyond that, The Apex-i SAFC or NEO etc, such systems are really only good for fuel corrections, not comparable to standalone management.

What these systems do is alter / modife the signal that is being sent to the ( factory engine-management. ) Where as something like a true piggy back like a e-manage or e-manage ultimate actually acts as a standalone.

It keeps the factory original ECU in a closed loop state, basically the ECU thinks everything is operating as normal. And the E-management and corrisponding sensors and so on are communicating. However, you still have to work within the factory limitations of the factory architecture.

I don't know how extensive you have built your 7AFE or 7AFTE as you call it. But, 10 psi is a tad ambitious with a Apex SAFC II. Sounds like you are using the old ( dump a lot of fuel and pray method. = ) You are better off with a smaller high response turbo and well balenced induction system using maybe 4.5~6psi tops. A well sorted low pressure, high response
system is superior to lots of lag and huge amounts of power.

One of the aspects of my job is that I not only design the hardware but the software as well for engine-management systems and ancilary devices.
Beyond this and amongest other terribly borning stuff, I have pretty much used every major competitive engine-management system on the market.

Good luck,
Mick

PS, It all depends on how extensive you want to get and how well refined.
Remember the fuel is only one aspect, induction systems are a multitude of parameters and beyond that
we haven't discussed the ignition system. ^_^

I think you're right, i only want to know how many options do i have, i'm in a budget that's one of the most problems, im going to use a TE04H Turbo, it is very small!!

1-. I should go 6psi tops

2-.And how about ignition system? any advice?

3-. Wich method is better? FMU? or Piggyback? I already have the 315cc injectors an the SAFC II. (Consider the budget!)

This post has been edited by celicomx: May 2, 2012 - 1:23 AM

[celica74]

I'm currently building a 7AFTE, my question is, go FMU? or SAFC witch 350cc Injectors? I'm going to boost less than 10psi, so any advice is welcome.

315cc injectors ( assuming ) that they are balenced and in good order. Are good for about 252hp. I like to side on caution and say that with age of
most fuel systems, pumps, thus you probably can support only about 214hp. You don't want to be operating at maximum injector cycle duties and
should have a buffer zone.

350cc is good for about 280hp. However, I ponder if the injector drivers are capable of supporting such large injectors. I expect very poor control.

With that said you need to understand how other aspects work, the factory 7AFE injectors aren't big by any means, they are something like 180cc.

Beyond that, The Apex-i SAFC or NEO etc, such systems are really only good for fuel corrections, not comparable to standalone management.

What these systems do is alter / modife the signal that is being sent to the ( factory engine-management. ) Where as something like a true piggy back like a e-manage or e-manage ultimate actually acts as a standalone.

It keeps the factory original ECU in a closed loop state, basically the ECU thinks everything is operating as normal. And the E-management and corrisponding sensors and so on are communicating. However, you still have to work within the factory limitations of the factory architect


What what ive read on other builds, only ignition compenent n't know how extensive you have built your 7AFE or 7AFTE as you call it. But, 10 psi is a tad ambitious with a Apex SAFC II. Sounds like you are using the old ( dump a lot of fuel and pray method. = ) You are better off with a smaller high response turbo and well balenced induction system using maybe 4.5~6psi tops. A well sorted low pressure, high response
system is superior to lots of lag and huge amounts of power.

One of the aspects of my job is that I not only design the hardware but the software as well for engine-management systems and ancilary devices.
Beyond this and amongest other terribly borning stuff, I have pretty much used every major competitive engine-management system on the market.

Good luck,
Mick

PS, It all depends on how extensive you want to get and how well refined.
Remember the fuel is only one aspect, induction systems are a multitude of parameters and beyond that
we haven't discussed the ignition system. ^_^

I think you're right, i only want to know how many options do i have, i'm in a budget that's one of the most problems, im going to use a TE04H Turbo, it is very small!!

1-. I should go 6psi tops

2-.And how about ignition system? any advice?

3-. Wich method is better? FMU? or Piggyback? I already have the 315cc injectors an the SAFC II. (Consider the budget!)

From what ive read about other builds is the only ignition system needing to be replaced is the plugs. Going one model colder then the stock ones is what ive seen others do which seems to work real well. Ive heard mixs thoughts about piggy backs. Heard they alter the ecu and can cause codes. Standalones ive heard alter the signal being sent from the ecu and shouldnt cause any problems. If i am incorrect please correct me. Im not a mastermind by no means with the electronics and this is based off of others threads and what i can recall.

[Syaoran]

I'm currently building a 7AFTE, my question is, go FMU? or SAFC witch 350cc Injectors? I'm going to boost less than 10psi, so any advice is welcome.

315cc injectors ( assuming ) that they are balenced and in good order. Are good for about 252hp. I like to side on caution and say that with age of
most fuel systems, pumps, thus you probably can support only about 214hp. You don't want to be operating at maximum injector cycle duties and
should have a buffer zone.

350cc is good for about 280hp. However, I ponder if the injector drivers are capable of supporting such large injectors. I expect very poor control.

With that said you need to understand how other aspects work, the factory 7AFE injectors aren't big by any means, they are something like 180cc.

Beyond that, The Apex-i SAFC or NEO etc, such systems are really only good for fuel corrections, not comparable to standalone management.

What these systems do is alter / modife the signal that is being sent to the ( factory engine-management. ) Where as something like a true piggy back like a e-manage or e-manage ultimate actually acts as a standalone.

It keeps the factory original ECU in a closed loop state, basically the ECU thinks everything is operating as normal. And the E-management and corrisponding sensors and so on are communicating. However, you still have to work within the factory limitations of the factory architect


What what ive read on other builds, only ignition compenent n't know how extensive you have built your 7AFE or 7AFTE as you call it. But, 10 psi is a tad ambitious with a Apex SAFC II. Sounds like you are using the old ( dump a lot of fuel and pray method. = ) You are better off with a smaller high response turbo and well balenced induction system using maybe 4.5~6psi tops. A well sorted low pressure, high response
system is superior to lots of lag and huge amounts of power.

One of the aspects of my job is that I not only design the hardware but the software as well for engine-management systems and ancilary devices.
Beyond this and amongest other terribly borning stuff, I have pretty much used every major competitive engine-management system on the market.

Good luck,
Mick

PS, It all depends on how extensive you want to get and how well refined.
Remember the fuel is only one aspect, induction systems are a multitude of parameters and beyond that
we haven't discussed the ignition system. ^_^

I think you're right, i only want to know how many options do i have, i'm in a budget that's one of the most problems, im going to use a TE04H Turbo, it is very small!!

1-. I should go 6psi tops

2-.And how about ignition system? any advice?

3-. Wich method is better? FMU? or Piggyback? I already have the 315cc injectors an the SAFC II. (Consider the budget!)

From what ive read about other builds is the only ignition system needing to be replaced is the plugs. Going one model colder then the stock ones is what ive seen others do which seems to work real well. Ive heard mixs thoughts about piggy backs. Heard they alter the ecu and can cause codes. Standalones ive heard alter the signal being sent from the ecu and shouldnt cause any problems. If i am incorrect please correct me. Im not a mastermind by no means with the electronics and this is based off of others threads and what i can recall.

Let me clear up a couple of things here:

1. If you're doing a turbo build, it's a good idea to replace the whole ignition system "tune-up" components so you have no issues. Colder plus are a good idea, but are not necessary for the boost levels you'd be running. Too cold of a plug will foul faster than a warmer plug if the temperature it is operating at is "too cold".

2. Piggy backs are good up to a point. They should not cause codes if installed right and tuned right. However, piggybacks are piggybacks, and ECUs in the 90's aren't the most advanced. They are put in-between the sensors and stock ECU and they just manipulate the sensors to work a certain way, while still having the computer control every engine function.

3. Standalones don't alter the the codes. Standalones replace your computer as a whole. Your ECU will no longer control your engine when using a standalone. That's why they're called "stand alone", they don't "piggy back" on your stock ECU.

By no means I am trying to be condescending or anything Just clearing stuff up for those who might be interested.