 got the 5SFTE put on a DYNO, heres the results. actual number finally |
  |
 Nov 7, 2004 - 11:02 PM
|
 
|
 Enthusiast  Joined Aug 31, '02 From Philadelphia, PA Currently Offline Reputation: 8 (100%)  |
my theory is this....if slaping on a turbo, retarding timing and changing the fuel tuning was all that was needed to make a realiable turbo motor, then toyota would have put the 5sfTe into the alltrac, running stock alltrac boost of 7-11psi.
itcyb, dont take this as a diss against your project. i have a lot of respect for the tuning you have done on your car. keep up the good work! -------------------- 15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
|
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 3:35 AM
|
|
||||||
|
Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '02 From Davenport Iowa Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
um... what do you think the 3sgte is? its basically a built for boost 5sfe with a differnt head ... at least in a broad sense of the term - I can lay down all the differences in between the two motors if I have to spec wise  and theres a little more than just slappin on the the turbo, retading the timing and changin fuel tuning
its 9.5:1 and im stickin to that untill I see an offical toyota site post differently
My 94 GT - the project one. U know I'm not tryin to argue with you guys... just tryin to make the point that dollar for dollar HP for HP after seein itchy's dynos the 5sfte seems the easier more cost affective route to go, like itchy has said.. his isnt really built all that much just the basics really and hes running close if not the same as the 3s does stock and for less than half the price... another 1-2k would make his 5sfte brilliant. BTW itchy.. I have an extra set of cams if you need them for a 5s.. hit me up if interested.. will let em go for dirt cheap --------------------  99 project version 3.0.. hello SEMA 2010 =) |
||||||
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 8:34 AM
|
|
||||
|
Enthusiast Joined Aug 31, '02 From Philadelphia, PA Currently Offline Reputation: 8 (100%) |
thats basically what itchyb has done!
you do realize that his motor probably wont be able to take 13psi for much longer, right? but what the hell do i know, i only have a crappy 3sgte that i wrench on everyday. -------------------- 15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
|
||||
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 10:56 AM
|
|
 Enthusiast Joined Nov 12, '02 From Webster Ma. Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
but isnt the 3sge is the same as a 3sgte right?? why didnt toyota jsut slap n a turbo to that? and retard the timing wiht larger fuel... thats all u'd have to do.. but they didnt because not every car they put out is gunna be a 200 hp fast car. the 5sfe goal was torque with low emissions and gas milage. also kwanza what are we missing man dont hold out.
-------------------- |
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 11:57 AM
|
|
 Enthusiast Joined Sep 30, '02 From Washington Spokane / Coeur D' Alene Idaho Currently Offline Reputation: 11 (100%) |
its good to see that the guys putting on turbos and not just swaping are getting pretty good numbers. its been said before put i also think anything above 250 whp on a fwd is a waste but thats me.
-------------------- yea your 3sgte is cool but ill stick to my 7agte
|
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 12:01 PM
|
|
||
 Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
No... the 3SGE and 3SGTE internals are different. The 5SFE is gonna show more big horsepower numbers because of the head design and the HP formula. The FE head design is excellent for making big torque numbers with boost... even a bit better than a GE head. Whenever big torque numbers are calculated with the HP formula... you get big HP numbers (assuming you have a decent rpm range). The FE head, in a sense, is far superior in making low-mid ranged torque. As for lago's reasons... the reason Toyota didn't put a 5SFTE into an alltrac or something... it's all about torque delivery. If you look at itchy's dyno... the torque is maxed out at around 4200-4500 rpms. There is significant drop off between 4500 rpms and 6000 rpms (from a peak of almost 200 ftlbs to around 120 ftlbs)... The 3SGTE on the other hand... does not do this. It maintains its torqueband and doesn't drop off until 7000 rpms or so. It can keep making power with more modifications... but as far as racing is concerned... even though the 5SFTE makes that good amount of torque/hp... it's not in a very effective spot in the powerband. The 3SGTE makes its power where it counts and then some. As for everything else... the 5SFE compression ratio is 9:5:1... Its internals are completely different and no where near as strong as the 3SGTE's. I agree with lagos that a turbo 5SFE will see problems if shortcuts were taken and tuning is not good. The life and death of a custom turbo kit (and the motor) depends on the details you do or do not take care of. As far as making power is concerened, the 5SFTE will always make more low-end to mid-ranged torque than a 3SGTE pound for pound. Displacement and the FE head are the reasons. -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
||
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 1:12 PM
|
|
 Enthusiast Joined Dec 25, '02 From Pittsburgh/Clairton, PA Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
lol, Neverstop...i liked the comment
this is a lil bit of an uglier post. Kwanza i think you did leave out the idea that even though pound for pound the 5S will always outpower, that to get to the next level it might cost more for the 5S. such as once you want to pass 15psi, the 5S needs more than the 3S correct me if i am wrong though... --------------------  |
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 1:29 PM
|
|
|
Enthusiast Joined Sep 30, '02 From Washington Spokane / Coeur D' Alene Idaho Currently Offline Reputation: 11 (100%) |
i wish they just would have imported the GT4
-------------------- yea your 3sgte is cool but ill stick to my 7agte
|
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 7:14 PM
|
|
|
Enthusiast Joined Apr 22, '04 From illinois Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
nice add nik
Also, you're saying life and death with the 5s-fte, well, how about a 5s-fze, supercharged. What happens there. For starters, which one is worse on the engine? And spill the rest of the info kwanza on the supercharger route --------------------  The most important lesson I learned from Karate-Dô Kyôshan – “You can not be what you do not believe you are” |
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 7:29 PM
|
|
||
|
Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
With mild boost (6-10 psi) it all depends on tuning. The 5SFE can probably handle 10 psi as a daily driver... but you'd have to be very meticulous about the fuel tuning and the cooling/lube. There will be very little difference between a supercharged 5S and a turbo 5S. The engine will feel more strain supercharged because superchargers are usually on constant boost, but if it's tuned well, the engine should last. A turbo will actually be a bit more dangerous because various failures can cause overboost amougst tons of other scenarios. Turbos also need cooling time while superchargers typically don't run as hot as turbos. It's a matter of prefrence. A turbo set-up has future build potential. A supercharger is limited to the size of the pulley and the blower. Consynx: yeah... I didn't mention price issues and buildability mostly because I'd figure the people involved with the arguing know that already. The 3SGTE, as strong as it is in stock trim... won't live long beyond 15 psi with stock pistons... The 5SFE, IMO, probably won't live long beyond 12 psi without pistons and rods. I'd also reccomend to itchy, he should be very careful boosting beyond 10 psi... because running a little lean can cause complete failure... and that has been the most consistant thing with custom turbo kits... -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
||
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 7:40 PM
|
|
||
|
Enthusiast Joined Aug 31, '02 From Philadelphia, PA Currently Offline Reputation: 8 (100%) |
tell that to the mr2 guys. -------------------- 15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
|
||
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 9:17 PM
|
|
||||
|
Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
People have fried stock pistons with 15 psi of boost. I'm sure it'll be fine if 15psi is a number people boost for 1/4 mile and such... but it's not the boost level that the engine can maintain regularly. Same goes for itchy's 5SFTE... Just take xxxmina for example. He was running a fully tuned megasquirt standalone and he still had problems... -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
||||
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 10:13 PM
|
|
|
Enthusiast Joined Aug 31, '02 From Philadelphia, PA Currently Offline Reputation: 8 (100%) |
um...15psi is the limit of the stock ct26 turbo, not the motor.
lookup JekylandHyde on mr2oc.com...he is running 23psi on an unopened motor with 200,000 miles on it. my final point: dont knock the 3sgte, its a great motor and well worth the upgrade. on that note, i give up. people can argue this back and forth forever. -------------------- 15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
|
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 10:33 PM
|
|
||
|
Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I NEVER knocked the motor man. Go back and read what I wrote if that's the impression you got. It's a matter of opinion when it comes to max boost on stock internals. Indeed the turbo maxes out at 15 psi (not really max... but is really inefficient after that)... From my research, a large populous agrees that 15 psi is where the stock 3SGTE pistons start having problems regardless of turbos. That doesn't mean it can't live there... it just means the level of tuning required to have the engine run with that level of boost is very high and the room for mistakes is VERY low. As for the dude running 23psi on the stock block... I'll assure you, he's either BS'ing, or he's run 23 psi for a few drag runs and/or dyno runs. I'll gurrantee that a 3SGTE is not gonna live reliably at 23 psi on the stock block. The 3SGTE does not have stock forged pistons (i think the rods may be)... and a lot of forged set-ups are designed for 20+ psi. 20 psi of boost is a whole lot... For example... my cousin has a buddy who built a turbo B18B Integra. They guy did the whole works with forged internals, fuel mods, programmable ECU, etc... and he's blown up the motor 2 times trying to reach 20 psi. Also consider... how many people that have swapped in a 3SGTE in the Celica community have really built their motors? Have you? Maybe some people are content with 8-10 psi with the original engine (7AFE/5SFE)... It's much less of a headache than a swap... regardless of how much better that swap is. No body is denying that. The 3SGTE is a great motor and has a ton of build potential... that doesn't mean a 5SFTE is not... -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
||
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 10:58 PM
|
|
|
Enthusiast Joined Aug 31, '02 From Philadelphia, PA Currently Offline Reputation: 8 (100%) |
http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/HydeMods.htm
Hydes 351hp dyno run http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/images/hyde_351_dyno.mpg tons of race videos http://www.jekylhyderacing.com/HydePhotos.htm This post has been edited by lagos: Nov 8, 2004 - 11:01 PM -------------------- 15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
|
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 11:12 PM
|
|
|
Enthusiast Joined Dec 25, '02 From Pittsburgh/Clairton, PA Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
since this is running out
what is the max output of the 3S on stock internals... I was trying to compare the SR to the 3S, and although the 3S is supposed to rein supreme, now there's numberous people saying the SR can handle well over 500 on stock internals... im wondering where this is coming from -------------------- |
|
Nov 8, 2004 - 11:46 PM
|
|
||||||
|
Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '02 From Davenport Iowa Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
hey itchy... didn't you spend a whole winter doin the 5sfte project??? cuz ifso thats a LONG a$$ time to just slap stuff on.... oh wait thats right forgot.. it takes 2weeks to tighen down each exhaust bolt 
dude... straight up man chill with your "holier than thou" attitude that you have had ever since you swapped.. cuz it's F*CKIN ANNOYING... hate to burst you bubble man but you have done nothing special with your car that hasn't already been a buncha times before... granted I will give you alot of credit... your car looks and prolly runs great.. it prolly pwnz almost all other cars where your from... but on a broader sense of things - sorry but its nothing special. You know maybe 4-5+ years ago you could run around with your head up your ass like you do man for the work you have done to your car.. but not nemore that stuff is a dime a dozen now... BTW... been knee deep in grease since I was 8 so your wrench everyday stuff means nothin to me man I totallly agree with you on the point that the 3sgte is an AWESOME motor able to throw down VERY impressive numbers with little to no tuning. but its not the be all end all of toyota/celica motors... a year ago I would of agreed with you 100% lagos in fact I have argued your exact point with some of the people that I am now siding with in this very topic.. but since that time I have actually looked into the 5sfte and think its the better route of the two.. expessially on a budjet I agree that the 3s will always have more potential for HIGH hp numbers but the cost is insane for high high hp after your factor in the price of the swap alone You can do aVERY nicly built 5sfte for the price of a 3s swap that should throw out better numbers than the 3s will in stock trim.
yea I liked it too Kawanza - diffently agree with you on this one HAHA can you believe that my point once agian is $ for $ HP for HP the 5sfte seems the more cost effective route to go and thats it.. either way will deliver nice power that the celica shoulda came with stock -------------------- 99 project version 3.0.. hello SEMA 2010 =) |
||||||
|
Nov 9, 2004 - 12:25 AM
|
|
||
|
Enthusiast Joined Aug 31, '02 From Philadelphia, PA Currently Offline Reputation: 8 (100%) |
hmm... i never said my car was one of a kind or anything like that, but as far as celicas go, its a very rare car. the 3sgte swap is still a new thing and there are only a few of them out there. so, yes, my car is great! since you decided to go on a presonal attack... i always hear you brag about what you had, but never see u have anything to prove it. "i had awd" "i had a 3sgte" etc.. sorry, but i dont really believe any of it. back on topic....
the whole point is, that if you want a turbo celica, you cant be cheap about it. weather you do a swap or a custom turbo. you should never choose one over the other based on price. this is the type of thing where u have to pay to play or dont play at all. sometimes something like a 5sfTe may seem cheaper, but end up costing more in the end.... and sometimes a 3sgte may seem more expensive but be well worth it when it lasts you problem free for years. -------------------- 15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
|
||
|
Nov 9, 2004 - 12:58 AM
|
|
||
|
Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '02 From Davenport Iowa Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
HAHAHAHA Sorry man.. did most that stuff long before this site was around and I was never really a member of celica.net.. never had a need or reason to take hella pics of it and post them... the only people I ever need to really show I could just be like,"hey come check this out" *pop hood* Ohhh's Ahhh's etc.... as for pics.. ya I got em somewhere.. Im not gonna beat that dead horse agian and agian BTW... its a little hard to sell a motor to someone if you never had it to begin with... which Im sure you know that Yoda bought my 3s recent since you where an ass to him in his topic about the wiring for the 185 On a personal level.. man your free to think whatever you want.. thats the beauty of our country - matters not to me On the topic.. your still missin my point, so Im gonna lay it out for you as simple as I can: 3sgte: Swapped in stock trim with FMIC,ICpipes, BOV - 5 to 6k 5sfte: 185 exhaust mani, Turbo, Oil Pan, 2bar map, 7mge injectors, Supra tt fuel pump, plugs and wires, Boost controller, FMU,BTM, BOV, FMIC, IC piping, Custom lines oil/coolant, new internals/rebuilt head... etc - under 5k now which is gonna put down more power? -------------------- 99 project version 3.0.. hello SEMA 2010 =) |
||
|
Nov 9, 2004 - 1:50 AM
|
|
|
Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
You guys are arguing based on opinion...
Lagos... Hyde has a lot of mods done... His is the highest boost levels I've heard of with the stock block... so I am impressed... but the money he's put in along with his means of doing things (very fuel safe) makes your argument weak. It's not within comparison to a 5SFTE. Apples and Oranges... I have a couple of buddies in town that build MR2 turbos for a living, and from my experience... I don't think boosting a stock block 3SGTE like that is a very good idea... I've seen 3SGTE's fry pistons at pretty modest boost levels... but I'm open to the idea. I just would like for you not to take some dude's word for it so easily. Let me put it this way... would you max out the boost on your car and drive it daily? Again lagos... I'm not arguing whether or not a 5SFE is as strong as a 3SGTE... that's a no brainer. I'm just saying... most people boost their cars to modest levels (10psi max?) and that no way justifies the idea that "they wasted their time" and "they should have done a swap"... Like I mentioned before... how many Celica people who have swapped 3SGTEs have built up their 3SGTEs? Not many if any... people who have problems with custom turbos almost always take shortcuts... but that doesn't mean it'll happen so long as you're safe about it. -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
|
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:
| Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: July 28th, 2025 - 11:41 AM |