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> 5SGTE, Anybody try this/pros cons
post Nov 10, 2004 - 12:56 PM
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Nemises

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Has anybody here attempted to match the 5SFE bottom end with a 3SGTE head. I found this link some guys building one.
http://www.jimsnodgrass.com/enginebuildup.htm
post Nov 10, 2004 - 1:16 PM
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x_itchy_b_x



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http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16388&hl=5sgte

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15996&hl=5sgte

i found with the search. its a hard thing i hear. i was thinking about it. but the head i was gunna buy was sold frown.gif


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post Nov 10, 2004 - 2:08 PM
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Doge



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Not as hard as you think... making a 3sgte stroker is in escense just bolting the 5sfe block (with an st165 flywheel) to the 3sgte head. Depending on the year of motor you may have to drill out coolant passages. There is a chance that, however, that the passages match up perfectly... not sure what year that is.
Doing this for a celica would basically be the same process as a 3s swap... just keeping the 5s block. The 5s block and crank are actually stronger than the 3sgte's, and in addition to having .2L more displacement.. that makes one MEAN turbo motor!
post Nov 10, 2004 - 3:30 PM
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WannabeGT4



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cwm13.gif
QUOTE
The 5s block and crank are actually stronger than the 3sgte
confused.gif


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post Nov 10, 2004 - 4:21 PM
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Nemises

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nobody on hear has built one. I think thats the way i am going to go.
post Nov 10, 2004 - 4:30 PM
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Kwanza26



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QUOTE (Doge @ Nov 10, 2004 - 7:08 PM)
Not as hard as you think... making a 3sgte stroker is in escense just bolting the 5sfe block (with an st165 flywheel) to the 3sgte head. Depending on the year of motor you may have to drill out coolant passages. There is a chance that, however, that the passages match up perfectly... not sure what year that is.
Doing this for a celica would basically be the same process as a 3s swap... just keeping the 5s block. The 5s block and crank are actually stronger than the 3sgte's, and in addition to having .2L more displacement.. that makes one MEAN turbo motor!

You should check your info a bit first...

First off... pretty hard. Gonna have to find some parts. Gotta find some low-comp 5SFE pistons, possibly rods, etc. Gotta use the correct generation 5SFE block, which is 92+ or 94+ or something like that. Water passages are different. Can't use the ST165 or any 3SG flywheel cause they're held on with 8 bolts as opposed to the 5SFE with 6... don't drill anything... Same basic process as a 3SGTE swap... you'll need a 3SGTE engine harness, all associated sensors, coil/ignitor, etc... and finally... the 5S block and crank are more than likely NOT stronger than the 3SGTE crank. Would make a pretty mean torque engine...


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1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver...

1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies...

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post Nov 15, 2004 - 4:14 PM
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Doge



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I know for a fact that the 5s block AND crank are stronger and more "beefy." And you're right about the flywheel... you use the 165 flywheel only if you have AWD... in which case you DO use it (or a fidanza). Mabye you dont know but the 165 flywheel IS a 6 bolt pattern... the 185/205 flywheels are 8 bolt. Want proof?
My "not as hard as you think" comment was aimed solely on the task of mating the 3s head to a 5s block. There is no real custom stuff you have to do... it will literally bolt on givin the water jacket holes match up. Notice in my post I said "Doing this for a celica would basically be the same process as a 3s swap..."

And you DO NOT have to have a certain year to mate it... some years have the water passages line up.. some years dont... if it doesnt you have to match them by comparing the head gasket openings to the block and drilling passages where necessary.

You wanna see some pages that cover this topic that describe exactly what i just wrote? Ok here you go... I suggest you read up.

5sfte 1
QUOTE
The casting quality of the block was amazing. Where every 3sgte Ive seen had rough inside walls with casting crap EVERYWHERE... the 5s block was clean and smooth and consistant.. which would promote oil drainage a lot. Not to mention make cracks and fractures less likely... and also reduces the need for deburring.
And the block is BEEFY. Everywhere you look, the block has more "meat" than the 3s block.. its just... beefcake.


5sgte 2
QUOTE
Originally posted by Whitemr291
alright, well how "hard" is it really to put a 3s head on a 5s block, reading over it, it seems really hard  .
-Terry

Very easy. I have built two, one a 2.2L with the 5S block and crank, the other a 2.1L with the 5S block and 3S crank. If you're lucky you don't need to drill coolant passages.. other than that it is a matter of a simple engine rebuild and sourcing the pistons. Chrisk takes care of the pistons.


5sgte 3
QUOTE
The flywheel from an ST165 (All trac Celica, 1st gen) should be used so you can use the turbo tranny.


3sgte Power Primer (the holy grail for 3s info)
QUOTE
the 5S crankshaft is a monster and can be used as is


...I could go on forever...


Next time dont be an asshole when you pick a post apart... believe it or not but some people are as smart as you. And I'm sorry for being an asshole.user posted image

This post has been edited by Doge: Nov 15, 2004 - 4:16 PM
post Nov 15, 2004 - 4:21 PM
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Consynx



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the few, the wise, the MANGS


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post Nov 15, 2004 - 7:21 PM
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Kwanza26



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QUOTE(Doge @ Nov 15, 2004 - 9:14 PM)
I know for a fact that the 5s block AND crank are stronger and more "beefy."  And you're right about the flywheel... you use the 165 flywheel only if you have AWD... in which case you DO use it (or a fidanza).  Mabye you dont know but the 165 flywheel IS a 6 bolt pattern... the 185/205 flywheels are 8 bolt.  Want proof?

I stand corrected on this point. The two St165's I've worked on in the past both had 8 bolt flys... but they also did wear later model engines.

QUOTE
My "not as hard as you think" comment was aimed solely on the task of mating the 3s head to a 5s block.  There is no real custom stuff you have to do... it will literally bolt on givin the water jacket holes match up.  Notice in my post I said "Doing this for a celica would basically be the same process as a 3s swap..."

How many people do you know do a 5SGTE swap and then define it as "easy" based on bolting on a head? Misleading dude. You did correct yourself later on... but that makes it very misleading to just the average reader. As far as the blocks go... there are several generations of the S series blocks with different water jackets (as you said). Get the one that works... Why bother mentioning drilling water jacks for the one that doesn't work?

QUOTE
And you DO NOT have to have a certain year to mate it... some years have the water passages line up.. some years dont... if it doesnt you have to match them by comparing the head gasket openings to the block and drilling passages where necessary.

I'm not 100% certain... but the differences were due to an update. They can be based roughly on what year the car was produced...

QUOTE
You wanna see some pages that cover this topic that describe exactly what i just wrote?  Ok here you go... I suggest you read up.

Only problem is... those are relative opinions. Are you telling me you believe EVERYTHING these guys say based on their opinions? I'll tell you the very simple reason why the 5S block is slightly thicker. Till then, I suggest you be your own person and not take everyone else's ideas as the gospel truth... not even mine.

First off... design improvements were made in the 5S series blocks (hence 2 gens of 5S blocks). The guy specifically compares his 5S block pulled from a 94 Celica, which were of the redesigned 5S block. It would be safe to say... that's a bad comparison because you're comparing a newer designed motor to an older designed motor (1st/2nd gen 3SGTEs were nearly identical in the bottom). That's not accurate. If he would have compared a 1994 5SFE block to a 1994 3SGTE (3rd gen)... I'll bet you the same design process went into both of those blocks and they both would have had the same attention to detail. This only refers to manufacturing improvements... not strength.

As far as strength goes... the 5S block is an over-squared design. 87mm bore vs. 91mm stroke. That alone... is the reason why the crank looks beefier. Oversquared designs emphasize on torque... to make torque, increase stroke length. The drawback is... the taller the stroke length, the farther the piston has to travel during stroke cycles. The most stress occurs during the combustion stroke... when the piston gets pushed down putting a ton of strain on the crank. The bigger the stroke... the more the strain. That's the reason why the 5S crank looks so much beefier. The 3SG crank is designed to rev. It's a perfect squared design and can handle upwards of 10,000 rpms (Beams race versions)... Being it's a squared design, the 3SG crank does not need to be built bigger. Let's put it this way... the 5S crank is strong for its stroker purpose... the 3SG crank is built for its squared balance. That doesn't make one stronger than the other. Let's say if the 5S crank was the same stroke as the 3S crank, yet it maintained its size... then it would possibly be stronger... but that's not the case. It's built bigger because it has to maintain a taller stroke. Get what I'm saying?

As for the block... it's built bigger. The 5S block has a taller deck and thicker walls designed and built for its purpose. It can potenially be bored out larger than a 3S block... but that doesn't make it stronger. Bigger = stronger is based on opinion. Composition, density, amougst other things determines the strength of the block. The size doesn't really matter. If a well composed alluminum block (SR20 for example) can be designed as strong as an iron block (3SGTE)... it's more about composition and desnity than thickness and size. That leaves to question whether or not being bigger and thicker actually makes the 5S block stronger than a 3S block. I'll assure you... different generation blocks are very different in terms of density and composition. Nearly every single model of the 4AGs had differently composed blocks. 20V blocks are generally very dense compared to its 7 rib 16V counterpart. Check the part numbers... all different.

QUOTE
Originally posted by Whitemr291
alright, well how "hard" is it really to put a 3s head on a 5s block, reading over it, it seems really hard  .
-Terry
Very easy. I have built two, one a 2.2L with the 5S block and crank, the other a 2.1L with the 5S block and 3S crank. If you're lucky you don't need to drill coolant passages.. other than that it is a matter of a simple engine rebuild and sourcing the pistons. Chrisk takes care of the pistons.

Opinion... It would be easy for me cause I have the tools and expertise... but not for everyone. Don't take people's opinion as the truth. If it were so easy... how come nobody here has built one?
QUOTE
Next time dont be an asshole when you pick a post apart... believe it or not but some people are as smart as you.  And I'm sorry for being an asshole.user posted image
[right][snapback]207039[/snapback][/right]

I wasn't trying to be an asshole... and I'm still not. I'm just very forward. You're arguing based on opinion... and not even really your opinion... OTHER's opinions. I'm not second guessing them either... but there are simply too many variables. A 5SGTE build emphasizes on torque. IMO, the 3SG blocks are much tougher than the 5S block simply because the 3SGTE blocks are PROVEN race bred motors. The 5SFE was designed to power economy cars. That being said... I doubt Toyota would make the 5S block out of super dense materials or anything of the sort. Toyota rarely ever overbuilds their engines, let alone a 5SFE. The advantage of a 5SGTE build is NOT to increase strength... but to increase displacement and torque. That's what makes sense to me... and I'm sorry for soundling like an asshole. I know people interpret me like that cause I don't sugar coat things... that's all good. I hold nothing against you.


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"It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"

1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver...

1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies...

1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be...
post Nov 15, 2004 - 9:00 PM
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Doge



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You're right they are mostly based on opinions... but opinions from people with first hand experience... I'm just not one of those guys that hears one thing and runs around repeating it without any real knowledge about it... I do alot of research and make sure I know what I'm saying when I say it... so sorry if I went alittle overboard by taking offence. Nothing against you either.
post Nov 15, 2004 - 9:14 PM
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Hanyo

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Wow Kwanza26,

I learned so much from this single post.
post Nov 16, 2004 - 10:01 AM
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frosty



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QUOTE(Hanyo @ Nov 16, 2004 - 2:14 AM)
Wow Kwanza26,

I learned so much from this single post.
[right][snapback]207238[/snapback][/right]


Same here...

whenever I get rich I'll get all the engines and combinations talked about and test them all so we'll all know which is really better! biggrin.gif (j/k)


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post Nov 21, 2004 - 12:11 AM
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DG_Performance



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a very important point that i did not see in this post is the fact that the 5s block is aluminum and the 3s block is case iron.
i am not going to tell you my opinion but i will leave it as this is just simply a "pretty big difference" that was not brought up!!!
DG


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post Nov 21, 2004 - 7:57 AM
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1bwilson



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QUOTE(DG_Performance @ Nov 20, 2004 - 10:11 PM)
a very important point that i did not see in this post is the fact that the 5s block is aluminum and the 3s block is case iron.
i am not going to tell you my opinion but i will leave it as this is just simply a "pretty big difference" that was not brought up!!!
DG
[right][snapback]209653[/snapback][/right]


I thought they were both cast?


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post Nov 21, 2004 - 9:36 PM
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Kwanza26



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QUOTE(DG_Performance @ Nov 21, 2004 - 5:11 AM)
a very important point that i did not see in this post is the fact that the 5s block is aluminum and the 3s block is case iron.
i am not going to tell you my opinion but i will leave it as this is just simply a "pretty big difference" that was not brought up!!!
DG
[right][snapback]209653[/snapback][/right]


The 5SFE block is cast iron...


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"It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"

1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver...

1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies...

1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be...
post Dec 24, 2005 - 2:02 PM
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i don't normally post in forums i don't normally visit, and i know this post is a month old, but i had to dive into this one. for starters i'll say a little about myself. i own a 1988 toyota celica all-trac turbo st165. i'm just going to assume that everyone knows what that is. if you don't you can go to www.alltrac.net and find out. i'm in the middle of a 5sgte build, myself.

i'm not sure about the later 5sfe, but i know for a fact that the earlier model 5s shared blocks with the 3s. i don't know if the later 5s had aluminum block. the only aluminum S series block i know of is the dual vvt-i 3s-ge beams. anyway, because they shared blocks, early blocks and heads are interchangable (1st and second gen 3s-gte's that i know of). you will want to use a 3s-gte block for this simple reason:

oil squirters

3sgte blocks came with oil squirters. 3sge blocks did not, 3sfe blocks did not, 5sfe blocks did not.

you can take your 3sgte block and it's beautiful oil squirters and drop in a 5sfe crank (if you want to use your 5s or 3s-ge block you can have oil squirters drilled in rather easily, but you really don't have to if you get a 3s-gte block). they are beefy, and they are strong, and they're the only way you're going to make 2.2L, so you're going to have to use the 5s crank. the 3s series has a bore of 86mm, where-as the 5s series has a bore of 87mm (how you make that other 100cc). so if you use your 3s pistons, you only get 2.1L. you aren't going to want to use your 5s pistons, though because they are cast, not forged. it would be a good idea to go with aftermarket pistons since you already have your block open. you are going to want to use 3s rods though, because 5s rods won't cut it, in order to do this you are going to need to have the crank journalled for these rods, though. if you can find some good aftermarket 5s rods so you don't need to journal the crank, more power to you, but i haven't been able to find them. you might as well go with eagle h-beam 3s rods because they are 30% lighter than normal 3s rods (and lighter is better).

since we are on it, you are going to want to use an st185 or sw20 head, because st165 heads take their own cams, and they only come in 1 aftermarket form with a 272 duration (from HKS), might be a little much for a daily driven car. while you're at it you can get 1zzfe shimless buckets (for the second / third gen head) for your spacing, and rev a little happier.

if you can REALLY afford it you need to get a st205 head (or late-model sw20), because they have larger ports and take the st185 cams.

just for reference, all the GE heads are the same for their generation, so you can grab a GE head and use it if you want to. if you are scrounging for parts the GE intake cam was a little more aggressive than the corresponding GTE intake cam (good to know for 1st gen heads). the exhaust cams are the same per generation.

you can use 3s-gte or 3s-ge intakes on these heads. the ge intake might be a good idea if you are piecing your motor together from scratch, because it intakes from the side, not the top. this is good for front mount intercoolers, and come pretty cheap. i believe you still need a tvis elimination plate for spacing purposes, though. if you can't get your hands on a 3s-ge intake (or have plans for bigger numbers than that), a 3s-gte intake will do just fine. get a 1st gen intake, because they have top mount injectors rather than side-mount.

you can also bolt any 3s-gte exhaust manifold to any 3s-g(t)e head. you might want to use the 2nd or 3rd gen exhaust for the dual inlet because your turbo options are a little better, though a 1st gen exhaust manifold will let you use a ma70 (mk III supra) ct26, which has a larger inducer/compressor and better flowing exhaust housing.

you will need to use a 6 bolt flywheel. i've only heard of people using the st165 one, i don't know if it differs from the 5s-fe one or not.

also, a good to know for you FWD guys, the sw20 LSD will work with celica FWD transmissions. in fact, this entire transmission will work with very little modification.

if you can spend any money on machine work have all the oil and coolant passages ground clean and have the passages around cylinder 3 bored a little bit, becaue this cylinder tends to get a little hot. it also ends up running a little lean because of the make up of the injector rail and intake. you can port the head a little bit, but just polish it smooth. you really don't need to do any extravagant porting or grinding to anything, as the stock valves and porting are generally just fine.

use all ARP fastennings. you'll thank yourself later. use a TTE stock-size metal head gasket, again, thank yourself later.

doing that, and upgrading your oil pump, and you will have a 5s-gte that will put out gobs of power. your limiting factors are going to be your turbo, exhaust, and intake, but your block will make 425HP reliably (toyota reliably, not pontiac reliably).

you should call up ATS racing for a turbo kit if you want any more. they work with sw20s and know their s series engines like no one else.

just some trivia: they never made the 5S in japan, it was an american-market only motor. in japan taxes are applied to motors greater than 2.0L, so motors like the 5s-fe wouldn't exist (N/A celicas and mr2's in japan got the 3s-ge and later the 3s-ge BEAMS). wheras motors like the honda H22 were limited to cars like the prelude, which is more of a luxury car than a sports car in japan, also why the WRX STi and s2000 are both 2.0L rather than larger.

also worth noting: to my knowledge (that i know of this is still speculative) all 6th gen celica liftbacks shared chassis, so you can get a 205 or 185 drivetrain and drop it into a 6th gen liftback with relatively small amounts of modification.

anywho, thats my S series schpeal.

any questions?
email me
killer_siller@yahoo.com
post Dec 24, 2005 - 6:52 PM
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BBoYRuGGeD



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wow this is so informative...i dunno how i missed this topic in the first place!

bboy


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post Dec 25, 2005 - 1:40 AM
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Kwanza26



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QUOTE(killer_siller @ Dec 24, 2005 - 7:02 PM) [snapback]370751[/snapback]

i'm not sure about the later 5sfe, but i know for a fact that the earlier model 5s shared blocks with the 3s. i don't know if the later 5s had aluminum block. the only aluminum S series block i know of is the dual vvt-i 3s-ge beams. anyway, because they shared blocks, early blocks and heads are interchangable (1st and second gen 3s-gte's that i know of). you will want to use a 3s-gte block for this simple reason:


Umm... there's a LOT I'd break down about what you're saying... but this topic is over a year old.... and I'm really tired of repeating myself over and over. Maybe I'll do it later... but just make note that I have to retort your info on Alluminum S block, ST205 head and ports, bore diameters and the differences between 5S and 3S blocks, cams, intake manifolds, and some other nick nacks. You get close... but unfortunately... not quite on the nose...

Also... although the ST204 and/or AT200 do share a common chassis with the ST205... that doesn't mean AWD swap is easy. The underbodies and trunk pans are significantly different, along with steering racks.


--------------------
"It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"

1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver...

1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies...

1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be...
post Dec 25, 2005 - 7:13 AM
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by all means, correct me if i'm wrong! the purpose of boards like this is to share information! if you know of any exceptions to what i've said, let everyone know!

it isn't insulting, it's just correction.
post Dec 26, 2005 - 7:05 AM
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CelicaZR



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ice23q is currently doin a 5sgte conversion.
ice23q's 5sgte conversion
Im sure he can have some input into this topic.


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