st vs gt, something ive been thinking about Options

[brianforster]

ok so most people on here are quick to say "the gt is better"

well it is , stock.

but in my opinion, if you do not plan on doing a swap, it might be more beneficial to go for an st.

the 7afe has a bigger aftermarket it seems, I think I read somewhere that it responds better to boost , that could be just retarded so feel free to call me out.

I think the person who contributes to this the most is kwanza, Ive read his posts a lot and he has an ST and I want to say it could have probably beaten most of the GT's on this site.

So what do you all think?

In terms of not swapping, just keeping stock or maybe adding a turbocharger, what has the most potential with the most reliability as well

[thedevilmaycrie]

hmm well i think id get a st ... actually i am gonna get one ...soon but im engine swaping it and with a 4agze and making it mostly show... ill set it up as my street car and my 3s celica will be my race car...

-DMC

[nik]

ST

[SlowCelica94]

hard to say. I dunno how strong the 7a internals are, but i do know how strong the internals in the 5s. Not very. But I have noticed I usaully only see around 7psi on 7a's (correct me if I'm wrong) and I have seen 10psi by a couple people on 5s's.

Kwanza can beat most gt's on this site. But you have to look at his mods. They're all very basic, and do-able on a GT, with the exception of the header. I contribute a lot of his success of his times, by his talent to tune his car on his afc and those slicks help a bunch too. Not to try to put Kwanza down in any way, hell, everyone knows I'm the biggest kwanza nutswinger on this board.

[nik]

But I have noticed I usaully only see around 7psi on 7a's (correct me if I'm wrong) and I have seen 10psi by a couple people on 5s's.
[right][snapback]227833[/snapback][/right]

daily driven 10 psi 7afte corrected

[nik]

ok before everyone and there doggy jump on here and start yelling about how the 5sfte is better just go read the 3sgte vs 5sfte i think the 5sfte and the 7afte are a close match for each other just my 2 cents

[SlowCelica94]

Really? Impressive. How long you been doing this? Do you beat on the engine a lot? Whats your knock like?

[SlowCelica94]

Also, look at the difference in suspension. The GT brakes are better, and the GT usually comes with more options and a better resale value. Also, alloy wheels

[shid]

Nik, it's a matter of exponential growth when you're turboing a car; the difference between a turbo'd ST and turbo GT is exponential every psi you raise. Quite simply, while they only start out 30 or so hp away from each other; every psi increases that seperation.

in my opionion, a turbo'd ST vs turbo'd GT race wouldn't be any closer than a regular ST vs GT, even worse.

[nik]

i get a little knock at 12psi when i push the car i'm working on the tuning of my e-manager

resale is only a few hundred dollars for the st and gt of the same year also insurance is cheaper in an st than a gt

[nik]

Nik, it's a matter of exponential growth when you're turboing a car; the difference between a turbo'd ST and turbo GT is exponential every psi you raise. Quite simply, while they only start out 30 or so hp away from each other; every psi increases that seperation.

in my opionion, a turbo'd ST vs turbo'd GT race wouldn't be any closer than a regular ST vs GT, even worse.
[right][snapback]227861[/snapback][/right]

i agree with this statement but i would still like to see it in real life a turbo st and gt 10psi 1/4 mile isnt the st a couple hundred pounds ligther in stock trim?

[saleeka]

when Stock the ST's have narrower wheels, no rear discs, and i think no strut tower brace... The brakes alone are a big disadvantage, especially when you add HP... I could see the 7A-FE being a better base if you were to tune the car N/A, but thats it... repeating what was already pointed out the GT just has too much power over the ST stock for the 7A to make up if you added a blower...

[SlowCelica94]

Saleeka's right. Even if you put on all the bolt ons for an ST ( exh, int, header, pulley) you're going to be slower then a GT

[shid]

Nik, it's a matter of exponential growth when you're turboing a car; the difference between a turbo'd ST and turbo GT is exponential every psi you raise. Quite simply, while they only start out 30 or so hp away from each other; every psi increases that seperation.

in my opionion, a turbo'd ST vs turbo'd GT race wouldn't be any closer than a regular ST vs GT, even worse.
[right][snapback]227861[/snapback][/right]

i agree with this statement but i would still like to see it in real life a turbo st and gt 10psi 1/4 mile isnt the st a couple hundred pounds ligther in stock trim?
[right][snapback]227863[/snapback][/right]

Only 170 pounds..

Thats 19.1 pounds per hp for the GT, and 23 pounds per hp for the ST; so, actually, the GT is "lighter"

[Jehuty]

Im still saving for a celica and I've decided firmly on an ST for the following reasons.

-Lighter weight. Some of this light weight is due to the ST having dinkier stock bits like brakes, bars, etc. But the most important and sizeable difference is right on the nose of the car. It's the smaller A series block. Lightweight is paramount to my project goals.

-Cheaper initial purchase and running costs. Hey, I'm cheap!

-Easier to find in low trim. Ever noticed it's alot easier to find 6gs with a solid roof and a 5 speed in ST form? No? Must be just me.

-Better engine. Ha! There, I said it! If you aren't going to do a complete swap, the 5SFE has pretty much two real options. You can bolt on a turbo, which is relativly easy, effective and a great cost effective performance boost. Or you can leave it stock and enjoy its natural torque advantages over the average four cylinder.

I think the 7A is a better engine to begin from simply because there are so many options. Mainly with head swaps from other engines in the A family. Considering this, one has the option of mixing and matching the 1.8l 7A bottom end with a series of hi performance G heads and pistons that can include superchargers, turbos, maf or map, VVT, 20v, ITB or any combination of those. Not to mention good old fashioned, inexpensive, and domestically available 16v heads with choice of factory port sizes and even TVIS , if you care for that. With more options at hand, one has a better chance of building a unique powerplant that suits their tastes.

While I would be more than happy with the power levels being produced by Turbo 5SFE engines, the delivery I see in dynos is not what I'm looking for. I wan't an engine that can develope good NA power at high rpm and sustain it for hard driving. That option just isn't available to me from a 5S. Anyhow, that's my rant.

[thedevilmaycrie]

oooh oooh i have an idea 7agtze 20v bwah hahaha

EDIT: and you can build a 6speed tranny

-DMC

This post has been edited by thedevilmaycrie: Dec 29, 2004 - 4:54 PM

[pokemeintheeye]

There really is no better or worst. It all depends on what you want in the end. You can do the same things in one to the other.

Most people, that I've noticed, tend to have an ST. Its a good point to start at. Its cheaper in many ways. That means more money goes back into your pockets to do things like motor swaps, brake upgrades, light mods and so on. Plus, its lighter. If you want an all out race car, then it won't be bad at all to buy an ST. You won't have to strip so much out because it was never there.

If you want something more civilized, the GT is the better car to go with. Bigger engine and more power in stock form. You got all power and better brakes. The power windows and power door locks are very convenient. The two trim levels look exactly the same. And the stock alloy wheels? Almost everyone on this forum is gonna swap them out with aftermarket wheels anyways so theres no point in mentioning them.

It doesn't matter which one you buy or have or prefer. Thats you. Me? I like my GT. I wouldn't trade it for an ST. I'm not looking to heavily mod the car. I don't need 250+ horsepower at my toes. I just wanna drive the darn thing. If I can add an extra 30-50 horsepower, I'm happy. Heck, just the way it is stock I'm happy. The sound of an intake would be nice though.

[pokemeintheeye]

I think the 7A is a better engine to begin from simply because there are so many options. Mainly with head swaps from other engines in the A family. Considering this, one has the option of mixing and matching the 1.8l 7A bottom end with a series of hi performance G heads and pistons that can include superchargers, turbos, maf or map, VVT,  20v, ITB  or any combination of those. Not to mention good old fashioned, inexpensive, and domestically available 16v heads with choice of factory port sizes and even TVIS , if you care for that. With more options at hand, one has a better chance of building a unique powerplant that suits their tastes.

You can actually do head swaps on the 5s using the 3s heads. Its been done. Then you got the option of going V6 with the 1mzfe. To my understanding, most of the mounts match up. Not like I would really know anyways though.

[nik]

There really is no better or worst.  It all depends on what you want in the end.  You can do the same things in one to the other. 

Most people, that I've noticed, tend to have an ST.  Its a good point to start at.  Its cheaper in many ways.  That means more money goes back into your pockets to do things like motor swaps, brake upgrades, light mods and so on.  Plus, its lighter.  If you want an all out race car, then it won't be bad at all to buy an ST.  You won't have to strip so much out because it was never there. 

If you want something more civilized, the GT is the better car to go with.  Bigger engine and more power in stock form.  You got all power and better brakes.  The power windows and power door locks are very convenient.  The two trim levels look exactly the same.  And the stock alloy wheels?  Almost everyone on this forum is gonna swap them out with aftermarket wheels anyways so theres no point in mentioning them.

It doesn't matter which one you buy or have or prefer.  Thats you.  Me?  I like my GT.  I wouldn't trade it for an ST.  I'm not looking to heavily mod the car.  I don't need 250+ horsepower at my toes.  I just wanna drive the darn thing.  If I can add an extra 30-50 horsepower, I'm happy.  Heck, just the way it is stock I'm happy.  The sound of an intake would be nice though.
[right][snapback]227897[/snapback][/right]

AMEN

[Rjb23]

You can't really put a 1z motor in our cars, its like putting a 3s in a 7th gen. Its cheaper and smarter to put a 3s in the celica.