3sgte in an ST vs RSX Type - S Stock Options

[MonsterBOX]

im about to do the long ass installation of the 2g 3sgte into my 1997 ST with a boost controller looking to do about 13psi...everyone is dissin my car now and when I get the engine in a few months I wanna run it up against a new Acura RSX Type - S...i think they do 210 at the crank? anyways ive driven it, so far the RSX seems faster than RWD Silvia SR20DET!.....just woundering if anyone knew how a front wheel drive 3sgte at 13psi would match up to a stock RSX type S before i put down alot of money on a bet...ive never driven a 3sgte so this if anyone who has one has done alot of racing please give me some feedback on how this thing matches up to the world of racing

This post has been edited by MonsterBOX: Apr 12, 2005 - 8:54 PM

[ghostdog]

RSX type-s runs mid to low 15s stock; so you should be able to. but from what I understand a swap celica, while capable, is a difficult car to drive fast. so I wouldn't say its a sure thing

[drnovascotia]

stock RSX - 15's

Stock s13 with sr20det = 13.8

But thanks for playing.

and rwd, which is nice

Dr.

[MonsterBOX]

difficult as in no traction?

[Digndoug]

difficult as in no traction?
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My guess that would be one thing, Also if you dont use the right trany, the gears are going to be dif, and also with out lsd my guess is a lot of wheel spin.

Thats what makes me not want to do the swap.

[lagos]

difficult as in no traction?
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My guess that would be one thing, Also if you dont use the right trany, the gears are going to be dif, and also with out lsd my guess is a lot of wheel spin.

Thats what makes me not want to do the swap.
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i really wish i could take all of you guys out for a ride or something.

one of my 1st impressions after driving my swaped car for the 1st time was "wow, this engine really feels right in the celica". i never really felt like traction was a problem. its one of those things that only happens when you want it too. sure i can break the tires loose in 2nd and sometimes even in 3rd gear, but this only happens when u WOT the throttle and really isint something that makes u feel like its slowing you down. its one of those things that gets your heart going and puts a smile on your face.

any NA 4cylinder car has never given me any problems in a race. ....basically after the swap, you will no longer think of most honda/acura cars as competion.

This post has been edited by lagos: Apr 12, 2005 - 11:03 PM

[Ryu3x16]

difficult as in no traction?
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My guess that would be one thing, Also if you dont use the right trany, the gears are going to be dif, and also with out lsd my guess is a lot of wheel spin.

Thats what makes me not want to do the swap.
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i really wish i could take all of you guys out for a ride or something.

one of my 1st impressions after driving my swaped car for the 1st time was "wow, this engine really feels right in the celica". i never really felt like traction was a problem. its one of those things that only happens when you want it too. sure i can break the tires loose in 2nd and sometimes even in 3rd gear, but this only happens when u WOT the throttle and really isint something that makes u feel like its slowing you down. its one of those things that gets your heart going and puts a smile on your face.

any NA 4cylinder car has never given me any problems in a race. ....basically after the swap, you will no longer think of most honda/acura cars as competion.
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I second that... and as drnovas.. it depends on what gen sr20det you're talkin about

[Supersprynt]

After the new intercooler I can easily spin through second gear. I feel confident against 350Zs and E36 M3s. An RSX should be well within range.

[Kwanza26]

I wouldn't be too general about what car can beat what. It would be arrogant to guess based on just that. An RSX type S can break into the 14's with bolt-ons... a 3SGTE celica with increased boost and a good driver will tip-toe 14-13... but I've yet to see a 3SGTE FWD celica run consistant 13's... while on the other hand, our shop has built several 13 second n/a 4 cylinder Hondas (4 different cars, 3 different engines, working on engine #4)... so I'm not gonna just say outright what will happen. I will say, with boost, it's a lot easier to make a lot of power, but it's more difficult to utilize it. You should really go to a drag strip and learn that for yourself lagos... ;] I've never driven a 3SGTE swapped FWD celica (have driven alltracs), but I've driven SRT-4 Neons, all sorts of turbo'ed Hondas (you name it, I've probably driven it), Eclipse GS-T's... and they all act very similar as far as traction from a stop is concerned. From a roll... boost owns all...

To close... it's always a driver's race when cars are this close. As easy as it may be for a turbo FWD car to run low 14's... it's just as easy for them to run high 15's all night long simply because of the driver. RSX's should NOT be under estimated... cause they are wicked fast. The K20A/2/Z1's are by far the best n/a 4 bangers out there... even better than the S2000's F20/22C.

As for the SR20 240... a stock SR20DET, regardless of version... will be lucky to break out of 15's with a stock engine (except for maybe the late S15 ones). They're not that fast in stock trim because the stock turbo is not that big or efficient. They're good for quick spool, but they suffer for making big power.

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Apr 12, 2005 - 11:36 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

So, are they any people out there with the 3S that think the car is hard to drive? I'm thinking of doing the swap (seriously), but I was tones of power. I'd like to get a honda. But I think it would be cool to redo the Celica with new leather, new semi racing seats (so I could put 5 points in but keep it stock), maybe some stuff to the dash, new paint, new radio set-up, and a 3S. What do ya'll think would be a good car for a semi-sleeper, with really nice quality, and a tone of hp. Trust me, I can never go to fast.

EDIT: I have done research on this, I just want to see what other poeple think.

This post has been edited by Bigmeanbulldog55: Apr 13, 2005 - 12:19 AM

[lagos]

i think the only reason u dont see swaped celicas running 12-13s is because the ct26 turbo cant make that type of power. if you look at what the mr2 guys have done with the 3sgte, you can basically make300-400hp with the right fuel and turbo.

ive never been at a track, and i really dont care if i go or not. in my opinion 1/4 tracks are for awd cars or anything thats not wearing street tires.

there will always be a faster car then what u own, it just depends on how much money u spend. the point i want to make is that with the swap you will be more then able to hold your own against other fast cars on the road and the car will work as a good daily driver too.

[Blakout16]

yeah, basically against an rsx-s comes down to driver... i was up against my friend with rsx-s off a slow roll and i gave him a good damn run for his money cuz he's a newbie to the car (only owned it like 3-4 months) and hasnt raced it much and i only have a st and race moderately for the hell of it and i was pretty excited about that i almost beat him.l

[Kwanza26]

i think the only reason u dont see swaped celicas running 12-13s is because the ct26 turbo cant make that type of power. if you look at what the mr2 guys have done with the 3sgte, you can basically make300-400hp with the right fuel and turbo.

ive never been at a track, and i really dont care if i go or not. in my opinion 1/4 tracks are for awd cars or anything thats not wearing street tires.

there will always be a faster car then what u own, it just depends on how much money u spend. the point i want to make is that with the swap you will be more then able to hold your own against other fast cars on the road and the car will work as a good daily driver too.
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I get what you're saying... but to me... it's a very single handed veiw. There will always be faster cars out there, true... but who's to say what's faster than what without knowing what's in those cars? I'm just saying to you... based on the people who have run their cars so far... 3SGTE FF Celicas, regardless of the power/torque/weight advantage... has a hard time from a standstill. Not because of the turbo, not because of the lack of power... simply because the cars can't hook up. That said... MR2's cannot and should not be part of the equation. It's not really about power... it's about traction. A 3SGTE powered FF Celica should have more than enough power to run consistant 13 second passes with the stock turbo...

You really should go run your car though... it'll give you a whole new outlook on the import scene... because there really aren't any cars that are "sorta" fast. Imports are either very fast... which is low 14's and better... or slow... 16's and slower.

[drnovascotia]

1. s13 sr20det or s14 sr20det either one will run high 13's all day long. hp does vary but is 205 ~ 250 either way stock

2. Kwanza - you're absolutly wrong.
a stock 240sx with a KA24de runs high 15's if it's a 5 speed.
a stock SR with FMIC and boost controller runs mid 13's

3. 3sgte is an underrated engine. That thing can haul @ss. CT26 is a good turbo, but of course it isn't gonna make 400rwhp.

Dr.

[lagos]

Kwanza26, buddy.... i really dont want to start any type of flame war, i have a lot of respect for you and everyone else on this board, but it kind of makes me mad when someone who admits to never have driven a swaped celica tries to explain to me how much of a problem traction is and how well the car hooks up.

[easternpiro1]

yeah, basically against an rsx-s comes down to driver... i was up against my friend with rsx-s off a slow roll and i gave him a good damn run for his money cuz he's a newbie to the car (only owned it like 3-4 months) and hasnt raced it much and i only have a st and race moderately for the hell of it and i was pretty excited about that i almost beat him.l
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wait one daaayum minute.... YOU BEAT A RSX WITH A ST?!?!? I couldnt even beat a stock civic with my st (even though i have an auto) what am i doing wrong?? god help me...i hope i get this loan so i can get that 3sgte clip in a few weeks!

[Green_MachToy]

If you just dump the clutch and floor it, traction will become an issue. If you find the sweet spot, it make all the difference. It does come down to driver. I am not saying ours will or will not beet the RSX, I haven't tried yet. Now rolling on the other hand, our cars with the 3sgte in it will fly past even the all-tracs. I have had a 240 with the SR20 roll up along side me and floor it. I hesitated thinking about it and at 70, dropped to third and caught him before 4th. Passed him and then had the Fuel Cutt-off engage as I have not installed the FCD yet. Our cars are quick and if you are looking for a sleeper, then you are on the right forum with the right car. Our cars have an element of unknown or surprise. Not many people know what they are capable of, even with the stock 3s setup. If it is another Toyota enthusiast, they know.

[97sccelica]

1. s13 sr20det or s14 sr20det either one will run high 13's all day long. hp does vary but is 205 ~ 250 either way stock

2. Kwanza - you're absolutly wrong.
a stock 240sx with a KA24de runs high 15's if it's a 5 speed.
a stock SR with FMIC and boost controller runs mid 13's

3. 3sgte is an underrated engine. That thing can haul @ss. CT26 is a good turbo, but of course it isn't gonna make 400rwhp.

Dr.
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1. ok, the 250hp s15 motor swaps are rare, so lets go with the 205-220hp ratings. an s13 with 220hp would not at all hit high 13's all day long, not with out a lot of weight reduction. if 220hp was enough to make a ~2700lb 240sx run high 13's every time, then so should a stock WRX which has about the same HP, with more torque, and comparatively unlimited traction with roughly 300lbs more. you will never see a bone stock WRX run high 13's consistantly

2.i have driven and riden in a s14 with a stock s14 sr20det in it. all it had was intake, it still had the stock 240sx exhaust

the car was not at all fast. it was right at the power level that 240sx's should have had from the factory. this observation seems fairly in tune with Kwanza's opinion

my car was faster when racing him, and that was when i was bone stock and didnt know how to drive my car worth ****. if i had to guess, he would barely hit high 14's, and he was a pretty good driver.

3. he now has a FMIC, down pipe, 3.25 inch exhaust, and a MBC set at 10psi. still only a low 14 second car. not mid 13's

now my car runs consistant 13's, and thats with me being nice to the tranny.

who here has actually gone to a track and driven a car down the 1/4 mile?

the most important part of drag racing is the hole shot, the 60ft, basically, the launch.

the faster the 60ft time, the faster the 1/4 mile time, i think that for every .1 second faster 60ft, its a .2 second faster 1/4 mile time.

i have seen plenty of turbo FWD cars at the track, and they get 2.5+ second 60ft times on street tires when they have the power to get something like a 2.1 maybe faster if they had traction(slicks). take the same car, if on one run it got a 2.5 60ft and the next run was a 2.0 60ft, the second run would be 1 second faster.

its for that reason, that ANY high power FWD car will require professional driving to hit the times its capable of with out the aid of slicks.

and before anyone asks, i have driven an 04 SRT4 and a 93 prelude VTEC boosting 8psi

all high power turbo FWD car, while very different from a 3s swapped celica in many aspects, when it comes down to the launch, they all do the same thing. SRT4 had the factory LSD and it still roasted the tires. the prelude gets traction in 3rd gear.

that was with me trying to get off the line as fast as possible, not getting rolling then rolling into the throttle, in which case, both those cars would still roast the tires in 1st. i will admit, i am not a good driver that can just hop into any car and make it run its best. i can only handle my car, and some RWD cars(datsun Z's with the turbo 1982 engine, and v8 mustangs)

take a 3s powered FF celica, and try to get off the line as fast as possible. thats when you will realize that the car has traction problems. you want a little bit of controlled wheelspin, too much wheel spin, you arent going anywhere, no wheelspin at all means the car is probably bogging.

[Kwanza26]

Kwanza26, buddy.... i really dont want to start any type of flame war, i have a lot of respect for you and everyone else on this board,  but it kind of makes me mad when someone who admits to never have driven a swaped celica tries to explain to me how much of a problem traction is and how well the car hooks up.
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Same here lagos... don't want to start any flame wars with you... but I'm just stating my opinion. Like I said before... even if not Celica specific... all FWD turbo cars act the same from a standstill.

1. s13 sr20det or s14 sr20det either one will run high 13's all day long. hp does vary but is 205 ~ 250 either way stock

2. Kwanza - you're absolutly wrong.
a stock 240sx with a KA24de runs high 15's if it's a 5 speed.
a stock SR with FMIC and boost controller runs mid 13's

Where's your backup information? I have buddies who drive sr20 240's... and they're not that fast. Our shop had a 92 240 (ka24de) and it got spanked by my corollas, which are 15 second cars at best. One of my good friends drives a 91 240 (ka24de) and my Celica can hang with it! I can post pictures and video clips if need be... but seriously now. What makes you think a stock sr20 240sx can run 13's? The 240sx weighs in the 2600-2800 pound neighborhood depending on generation... the SR20det makes 200-220 hp depending on generation. With rear wheel drivetrain loss, it'll put about 160-170 to the wheels... that's NOT a 13 second car. Take for example... the RSX type S weighs about 2600-2700 pounds... makes 200-210 hp (170-180 whp)... and runs low 15's stock. The 1st gen Solara 5 speeds (2800-2900 pounds)... made 200 hp (170-180 whp)and ran mid 15's... the Honda S2000 weighs 2700-2800 pounds, makes 240 hp (200 whp), and runs mid 14's... so how can a car that matches all of these others... run times a full second faster?

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Apr 13, 2005 - 1:37 PM

[97sccelica]

so how can a car that matches all of these others... run times a full second faster?

Magazine hype?