toyota VS honda, stock -> turbo Options

[Hanyo]

how come honda engines seem to have more power and boost more compaired to toyota engines. Well to be more specific, the b18 VS the 7afe.

I've heard earlier, under boost conditions the variable valve timing actually hinders performance.

so why does a supercharge b18 engine at 6psi make 190 whp with no aftermarket fuel management?
where as a 7afe only can make 170 whp with a turbo and all the dooo dads? ( i dont remember how much boost nik was using.)


it just doesn't make sense. 7afe and b18 both have 1.8 liter engines. And the 7afe head is suppose to be a good turbo head?

[Mike]

ahem...
3s-gte.... 700whp...
2jz-gte... infinity rwhp...

[Hanyo]

i know i know.. there are some motors built to make massive HP under boost.

But the d16 can make 200 whp which has less displacement then the 7afe. Not to mention its a SOHC.

[StreetRacing10PS...]

the valves on the b16 and b 18's on hondas are angled different and provide better air flow, adding more HP.

[StreetRacing10PS...]

and nik was runing 9.5 PSI on his kit, and ill be runnig that soon allso cuz i just bought his kit....

[Hanyo]

i understand how the the B series engines from honda has better flow and make more power.

But isn't the D series motors from honda the economy engine. Why does it make more power then the 7AFE when boosted?

[Digndoug]

the biggist thing .. That the 7afe has a slave cam. So its kinda a fake DOHC That is one of the biggist problems, besides the fact that it has weaker rods, a porley designed cam shafts and crank, also has a economey based head design.

[95gtschick]

the d16 engine can make a whole lot more than 200whp, lol. i know someone who's got a d16 engine with a full aftermarket turbo kit running 9psi and he's at more than 200whp... all he's done to the internals is.. nothing! he just put on a aftermarket stage 3 racing/street clutch (ACT). oh and i guess you can't forget the rice, that must add at least 40hp

[thedevilmaycrie]

ok doing a b series honda engine against the 7afe is a lil unfair... sooo lets make it fair.... 4age black top unboosted... 180 i think b16 unboosted ... please tell me how much?

-DMC

[Rjb23]

B series is a performance enging, where as the a series is economy engine that is like compairing a weed eater engine to a 60 cc dirt bike engine.

[ghostdog]

B series is a performance enging, where as the a series is economy engine that is like compairing a weed eater engine to a 60 cc dirt bike engine.
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a-series

[Kwanza26]

I could tell you guys why... but It would really be more interesting to hear you all try and figure it out first... heh...

[Anub1s]

Guys Honda knows what they are doing with their engines, they can make a performance engine that gets better gas mileage than an economy engine built by Toyota. Its all in engine design, Honda simply makes them better. Better heads, blocks, cam design's, pistons, rods..etc. I will always like Toyota more than Honda, but plain and simple Honda has Toyota beat in the car department, when you start talking trucks, Toyota has it hands down. Stupid Ridgeline.

Look up the new CTD-i engine from Honda, if thats not well engineered I don't know what is. Crazy stuff can be achieved by Honda's, Toyota's can do it as well but you need to have specific engines. i.e. S 3S-GTE or 2JZ-GTE to make high amounts of horsepower.

Honda's can make lots of power out of the lowest end engines. It's nuts, they simply flow better and are better designed. Now I'm being redundant so I'm going to stop.

[Blakout16]

I could tell you guys why... but It would really be more interesting to hear you all try and figure it out first... heh...
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plz do tell, im really interested in the reasons.

[97sccelica]

1. more R&D has been put into extracting power from honda engines

2. B series engines have higher compression ratios

3. Toyota wasnt joking when they designed the F head as an economy head.

4. all the honda engines start out with higher power.

those are my guesses

[Hanyo]

let move out from the performance engine topic, because its gonna cause a mess of this discusion with whois performance engine is better.. ( B16 vs 4age .. ect)

its stricty the D16 vs the 7AFE.


the D16 non-vtec can make 115hp, with 110 tq @ 4500 RPM ( 97 civic HX coupe) and gets 34 city 38 highway mpg

the 7afe can make 105 hp, with 110 tq with 27 city 34 mpg highway mpg.


Both these engine have around the same hp, both these engines are econony engines.

YET the D16 can make more power when boosted with a SOHC?
The 7afe has more displacement and a DOHC, yet it cant make more power.

[saleeka]

Also dosent the A series have its roots in the eary 80's, whereas the B series motors are much newer like early 90's?

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I think it has a lot to do with the close cams and singal sprocket driven system of the 7a head. And with it, and the 5s being the same. These produce a more effecenct burning of fuel in the combustion chamber. It also allows for more low end torque but less higher end power do to the single spocket design and unibility to do as much sacavaging. With this lower end power, it only makes sence that the 7a and 5s engines would have longer strokes. The longer strokes makes it very difficult to get high rpm horsepower and boost power. Without the high winding ability, you just can't spool a turbo up as well. I'm not positive this is right, but I think it is. Kwansa, who close am I?

[Hanyo]

I think it has a lot to do with the close cams and singal sprocket driven system of the 7a head.  And with it, and the 5s being the same.  These produce a more effecenct burning of fuel in the combustion chamber.  It also allows for more low end torque but less higher end power do to the single spocket design and unibility to do as much sacavaging.  With this lower end power, it only makes sence that the 7a and 5s engines would have longer strokes.  The longer strokes makes it very difficult to get high rpm horsepower and boost power.  Without the high winding ability, you just can't spool a turbo up as well.  I'm not positive this is right, but I think it is.  Kwansa, who close am I?
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but scavenging is only help full in a N/A motor. Under boost conditions you want the Intake valves to open later and the exhaust valves to open sooner.

And what is the deal about grind the 7afe cams? Grind down the lobes? So the valves open less?

[darksecret]

I might be wrong on this but the last time I pulled the valve cover on a D16 it had two cams with one riding a slave gear. In case anyone was wondering it was from a 1997 Honda Civic EX. I'm not a big Honda fan since they don't pose a challenge like the Celica does, so I never bothered learning more than I need to know about them.