Talk about cheaply turbo-ing a 5sfe, BADDDDDDD Options

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Nice right up CelicaST. With adtvances in electronics, it's very possible. The problems I see is they are marketed as cheap alternitives. To make one work correctly it would have to have a fair amount of RD and money invested. There's so much info out there on superchargers and turboes, that it makes them as easier alternative for most. If the right guy felt like doing a e-turbo, I see no reason it couldn't work just as well. I like to compare it to carbs vs fuel injection. When FI came out, the car guys would switch it to carb right away. Some still do this. It's easier and everyone knew more about working with carbs. Besides that, there weren't many performance upgrades redily avalible for FI. But the problem with that comparision, is that race cars when to FI way before they went to street. And it was known that FI would be better for race cars. No race teams that I know of use e-turboes. This might be because there just hasn't been the desire to look into them yet. I think we'll switch to electric cars before e-turboes are popular. But the fact stands, it is very possible to make one work. Even the ones they sell will do something, just help to equilize pressure. That won't produce much of a gain, but you can't deny it's doing something.

I think this topic will actually stay open awhile. Everyone so far is presenting reasonable arguements and no one has jumped in to simply bash on anyone.

[celicaST]

this post will end up being locked in a few days

...i have an eTurbo, but i'm not going to comment due to the slack it gets here. I know i'll get "flamed" for having one, but i could care less...so save yourself the embarrassment

~snapshotgt

id LOVE to see some dyno sheets before and after from that thing man!!

i would too, go do it snapshot! but i hightly doubt any significant increase because the eturbos ive seen for sale since i just started looking all arent high power enough to provide the air flow needed. however, manny, dont let that make you discount the idea. there is no reason this cant be done, and very effectively.

[jgreening]

I take it the energy used to drive that fan is an electrical source. As such, how much air could possibly be pushed with a 12v fan? The concept is sound (engine management issues aside) but the mechanics given the capability of the components make this something that is not worthwhile.

Notice how I didn't say it was stupid despite my inclination to do so.

[x_itchy_b_x]

im going to say it impossible to even get ANY 12v motor to supply enough air to any combustion motor. no way no how. and lets pretend it does work lol. you still need to upgrade the fuel system and the timing and the sensors. its just not practical. and its only a fan. it can push air yes but it cant Pressurize a chamber.

now maybe a 10hp shop vac fan could do something

[celicaST]

Nice right up CelicaST. With adtvances in electronics, it's very possible. The problems I see is they are marketed as cheap alternitives. To make one work correctly it would have to have a fair amount of RD and money invested. There's so much info out there on superchargers and turboes, that it makes them as easier alternative for most. If the right guy felt like doing a e-turbo, I see no reason it couldn't work just as well. I like to compare it to carbs vs fuel injection. When FI came out, the car guys would switch it to carb right away. Some still do this. It's easier and everyone knew more about working with carbs. Besides that, there weren't many performance upgrades redily avalible for FI. But the problem with that comparision, is that race cars when to FI way before they went to street. And it was known that FI would be better for race cars. No race teams that I know of use e-turboes. This might be because there just hasn't been the desire to look into them yet. I think we'll switch to electric cars before e-turboes are popular. But the fact stands, it is very possible to make one work. Even the ones they sell will do something, just help to equilize pressure. That won't produce much of a gain, but you can't deny it's doing something.

I think this topic will actually stay open awhile. Everyone so far is presenting reasonable arguements and no one has jumped in to simply bash on anyone.

very nice ananogy with carbs v FI. but i disagree with you on one point. we dont need any advances in electronics to make this work. i could and will make one, granted i can get it approved as a senior project, with off the shelf parts. marketing is the only reason this hasnt taken off. its similar to the marketing of ev and hybrid cars. ev and hybrid cars have so much potential in terms of performance over a typical ICE car, but the demand isnt there so people get teh misconception that hybrid/ev technology is slow. similarly the demand for this product is from customers looking for a cheap alternative, and so they make them low power so as too not require intercooler, injectors, etc. again, i would very much like to see a dyno snapshot if you can find the time and place to do it

by the way, a bit off topic, but people doing engine swaps. motor swap>>>engine swap. i guarantee you a siemens 1pv5138-4ws24 electric motor paired with high power inverter and lightweight battery pack could outrun a 3sgte. "max" power 203hp, "max" tourqe 332 ftlb. ill post a new topic on it sometime to explain what goes into an electic swap.

*i missed your point about eturbos not being in race cars. thats simple. FI was implemented over carbs because of efficiency, and it was clearly advantageous to carbs. however, like i said before, an eturbo is NOT going to be as efficient as a turbocharger. energy must be converted from mechanical to electrical in the alternator, 12v dc electric to high voltage ac electric in the inverter, back from electric to mechanical in the motor. the engine is going to work harder to develop the same boost as a typical turbo. i said it might be similar to supercharger because of the friction in a roots blower and the mechanical drivetrain, however im just guessing.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 2:54 PM

[celicaST]

im going to say it impossible to even get ANY 12v motor to supply enough air to any combustion motor. no way no how. and lets pretend it does work lol. you still need to upgrade the fuel system and the timing and the sensors. its just not practical. and its only a fan. it can push air yes but it cant Pressurize a chamber.

now maybe a 10hp shop vac fan could do something

im sorry, but you sound ignorant on this. what do you call a turbo compressor? its a fan, a highly specialized fan. its a radial fan as opposed to an axial fan your probably talking about, but still. now your right, a 12v motor isnt going to be powerful enough without very high amperage (but that will cause overheating issues) to supply the air needed, but thats why theres AC inverters and transformers by the way, "it can push air but it cant pressurize a chamber." i would like you to read that again to yourself. if you cut a hole in a box, put a room fan in the hole and turn it on, tada a pressurized chamber, although wouldnt be that much over atmosperic with a low power room fan. guys this is very practical, it just needs to be done correctly.

also, if i do get the chance to build this as a senior project, i would most likely use the compressor housing off of a turbo.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 2:36 PM

[jgreening]

although wouldnt be that much over atmosperic with a low power room fan.

Or with a 12v electrical fan either. And pressurizing the positive boost system is what is needed. While I remain extremely sceptical (understatement) I say go for it and post your results.

[celicaST]

although wouldnt be that much over atmosperic with a low power room fan.

Or with a 12v electrical fan either. And pressurizing the positive boost system is what is needed. While I remain extremely sceptical (understatement) I say go for it and post your results.

well im only a freshman, and im not saying theres going to be some issues, but thats what engineering is about . main issue is power, highest amperage alternator ive seen is 300amp. at 12v output thats just around 4.8hp. im not sure whether or not that would be sufficient enough to run the compressor at desired boost. other ideas ive had would be a retro-fit system to install on a car to capture energy lost while braking. well see, its still a ways off. probably end up doing the sae race car or hpv.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 3:11 PM

[x_itchy_b_x]

im going to say it impossible to even get ANY 12v motor to supply enough air to any combustion motor. no way no how. and lets pretend it does work lol. you still need to upgrade the fuel system and the timing and the sensors. its just not practical. and its only a fan. it can push air yes but it cant Pressurize a chamber.

now maybe a 10hp shop vac fan could do something

im sorry, but you sound ignorant on this. what do you call a turbo compressor? its a fan, a highly specialized fan. its a radial fan as opposed to an axial fan your probably talking about, but still. now your right, a 12v motor isnt going to be powerful enough without very high amperage (but that will cause overheating issues) to supply the air needed, but thats why theres AC inverters and transformers by the way, "it can push air but it cant pressurize a chamber." i would like you to read that again to yourself. if you cut a hole in a box, put a room fan in the hole and turn it on, tada a pressurized chamber, although wouldnt be that much over atmosperic with a low power room fan. guys this is very practical, it just needs to be done correctly.

also, if i do get the chance to build this as a senior project, i would most likely use the compressor housing off of a turbo.

im not saying electric isnt possible but no 12v fan contraption like this can possibly do anything.
ive seen REAL electric supercharges man. they have them already...... they cost close to 1k and you can only run them for 15 seconds. due to the motors heating up and not having enough current to power them.
and yes they use a compressor. like a pro charger setup just where the pully is they mount a high power motor.

heres the link of a real one http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight/

This post has been edited by x_itchy_b_x: Feb 9, 2006 - 3:23 PM

[celicaST]

im going to say it impossible to even get ANY 12v motor to supply enough air to any combustion motor. no way no how. and lets pretend it does work lol. you still need to upgrade the fuel system and the timing and the sensors. its just not practical. and its only a fan. it can push air yes but it cant Pressurize a chamber.

now maybe a 10hp shop vac fan could do something

im sorry, but you sound ignorant on this. what do you call a turbo compressor? its a fan, a highly specialized fan. its a radial fan as opposed to an axial fan your probably talking about, but still. now your right, a 12v motor isnt going to be powerful enough without very high amperage (but that will cause overheating issues) to supply the air needed, but thats why theres AC inverters and transformers by the way, "it can push air but it cant pressurize a chamber." i would like you to read that again to yourself. if you cut a hole in a box, put a room fan in the hole and turn it on, tada a pressurized chamber, although wouldnt be that much over atmosperic with a low power room fan. guys this is very practical, it just needs to be done correctly.

also, if i do get the chance to build this as a senior project, i would most likely use the compressor housing off of a turbo.

im not saying electric isnt possible but no 12v fan contraption like this can possibly do anything.
ive seen REAL electric supercharges man. they have them already...... they cost close to 1k and you can only run them for 15 seconds. due to the motors heating up and not having enough current to power them.
and yes they use a compressor. like a pro charger setup just where the pully is they mount a high power motor.

heres the link of a real one http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight/

oh i agree with you that the eturbo on that 5g isnt doing much, if anything at all. and i remembr seeing that electric supercharger before, i dont know if a link to thomas knights page is in the article so electric supercharger. this setup is essentially the same thing im talking about except that it is not continuous. he calculated 450cfm at 8psi requires about 18-22hp. ill guestimate a 4-5 hp should be ok providing 3-5 psi on a 1.8engine whose cfm is around 191 cfm at 6000rpm. keep in mind it would provide a higher sustained boost at lower rpms until the compressor could no longer flow that much air.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 5:14 PM

[lagos]

im amazed there is even a debate about these things..lol

[celicaST]

im amazed there is even a debate about these things..lol

i dont think we are debating the actual eturbos for sale. im sorry, but whoever buys these is wasting there money. the one i saw for sale advertised 2.2amps. ya thats not even 30 watts, obviously its not going to have anywhere near the power needed to create boost. the product also advertised it can flow 250 cfm. another pointless fact and misleading advertising, even though my 7a only flows 191 cfm at 6000rpm, there is still no way that a 30 watt motor can sustain a significant pressure gradient without it stalling. flowing 250 cfm is pointless at a low pressure gradient, flowing 250cfm at any significant boost level requires significant power. there claims of 10-25hp gains are also laughable. however, like ive said, overall idea is still possible.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 5:15 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

im amazed there is even a debate about these things..lol

Me too, but probably for different reasons.

CelicaST, you who I'm talking about when I say, "if the right person decided to make a e-turbo." Have you considered running a separate alternator hooked to its own battery to supply power? If you could get a belt system working with the turning of the fan, you could run multiple electric motors on it. This would probably be more complicated than making a supercharger, but it would prove a point. Any time you have innovations there are always very reputable skeptics. Skeptics are very important to the advancement of science. They make it so we have to prove everything thoroughly. I deal with them on a daily basis. After dealing with them for so long, it's almost irritating to see the things people say with no proof. People can say and believe anything they want, but the only thing that real is things that are proven. Weather its skeptics or researcher. If the skeptics say this is wrong, I challenge them experiment and prove it is false. If nothing else, provide scientific evidence to back up your theory. The science to this is simple. How much air can an electronically driven fan push? If it's more than a car can take in, it will pressurize. The practicality is the only thing in question in my mind. That is what you are for CelicaST. Please prove this one way or the other.

[celicaST]

im amazed there is even a debate about these things..lol

Me too, but probably for different reasons.

CelicaST, you who I'm talking about when I say, "if the right person decided to make a e-turbo." Have you considered running a separate alternator hooked to its own battery to supply power? If you could get a belt system working with the turning of the fan, you could run multiple electric motors on it. This would probably be more complicated than making a supercharger, but it would prove a point. Any time you have innovations there are always very reputable skeptics. Skeptics are very important to the advancement of science. They make it so we have to prove everything thoroughly. I deal with them on a daily basis. After dealing with them for so long, it's almost irritating to see the things people say with no proof. People can say and believe anything they want, but the only thing that real is things that are proven. Weather its skeptics or researcher. If the skeptics say this is wrong, I challenge them experiment and prove it is false. If nothing else, provide scientific evidence to back up your theory. The science to this is simple. How much air can an electronically driven fan push? If it's more than a car can take in, it will pressurize. The practicality is the only thing in question in my mind. That is what you are for CelicaST. Please prove this one way or the other.

well thank you. "Have you considered running a separate alternator hooked to its own battery to supply power? If you could get a belt system working with the turning of the fan, you could run multiple electric motors on it." sorry i dont understand the benefit or what you mean by either of those two ideas and both sound to complicated to the point where it would be more difficult to install than a typical setup. main benefit of such a electronic setup would be installation ease. well when im a senior i hope to, but first i would have to get this project approved by the ME department. sounds like they would since it involves thermodynamics, electronics, fluid dynamics, and pretty much anything else i could think of.

oh and this statement "How much air can an electronically driven fan push? If it's more than a car can take in, it will pressurize." is true, however, it will only produce a pressure gradient that the motor can sustain, aka high pressure gradient=high power. a tiny weak motor might pump a lot of air say in open air but once the outlet pressure rises in relation to the inlet pressure, it becomes harder for that motor to pump air in. IN CONCLUSION, dont buy an eturbo! they are scams and a complete waste of money.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 9, 2006 - 5:08 PM

[FAQdaWorld]

This shouldnt even be debated on any level....

Yes its possible in theory to create boost with an electric motor, but for less cost and a simpler setup you can have a working TURBO that is using waste energy anyway....

[creis]

ok, i'm gana say this only one because i know people are gana say i'm full of it because they just dont know, you would be very suprised how much air that little thing can push, I was, I put one on my car for like a week just to see if it would work and it did give gains. probably 10-15 low end hp.

I know its a very cheap way to gain hp and the only reason i bought and installed one was to see if it worked, but I gata tell its the lowest cost part to give the gains it did, and wile its not upgradable some people just want a little extra power. The drain on my battery was considerable but not enough to where i could not continue use indefinetly. in reallity its just like people who put on a CAI, what all does a CAI do really, just takes in air a little better then a stock intake, does not give respectable gains to a motor, so please keep an open mind when it comes to car mods, and dont think that just because something looks like it cant work does not mean it cant.

as far as dyno results i was going to have it tested but sold the part before I got to.

[jgreening]

I put one on my car for like a week just to see if it would work and it did give gains. probably 10-15 low end hp.

Are you guessing as to these gains or did you attempt to measure them somehow?

[WannabeGT4]

Come on Jay. You know the butt dyno totally pwns the Dynojet.

[lagos]

if it really did add 10-15hp, you would have kept it on the car. only reason people resell stuff like that is because its worthless.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

creis, I knew your post would look bad. You claimed 10-15hp, and you do the famous, "I never got around to dynoing it" line. I'm open to conversation on these e-turboes, but that just opened up the door for the skeptics to bash. Please edit your topic or something. If you support, that's good, but don't claim without evidence. It actaully makes e-turboes look worse to have claims with no real data.

EDIT: I know you mean well, and so do guys like Jay and Lagos who keep us all in check. I really do appreciate the desire to see prove guys, and thanks for not getting too mean on this thread. Presure2, thanks to you too. I know you guys don't mean to be mean, I know your just trying to help.

This post has been edited by Bigmeanbulldog55: Feb 10, 2006 - 5:45 PM