Talk about cheaply turbo-ing a 5sfe, BADDDDDDD Options

[celicaST]

ok ive thought about this, and i actually think that a 30watt motor could provide a benefit. not by providing boost (although it will provide a miniscule amount), but by eliminating the vaccuum. ok with my 1.8 liter 7a, it will pump around 191 cfm at 6000rpm as i already calculated. the eturbo i sas for sale advertised 250 cfm, which i assume to be correct at a low pressure gradient. like i said, it will create a pressure gradient because of the excess flow, however it will be very small. as ill say again, 30 watts isnt enough power to create significant boost obviously. what i didnt take into account is that typically the pressure in the intake manifold is about around 1psi or more less than atmospheric due to flow restriction in the intake. so, as long as the motor is powerful enough to flow more air through the filter than the engine requires, it SHOULD result in a slight performance gain.

and FAQ, i have to disagree. if a proper electric setup was mass-produced, it could be cheaper or at least similarly priced (only difference really would be etubo instead of turbo, and a high discharge alternator instead of custom exhaust manifold/downpipe), and it would be a little easier to install (no exhaust modification, oil lines to hookup). yes i know it wont be as thermodynamically efficient as a turbo, but it should be somewhat comparable to a supercharger. main advantages again would be installation, controlability, reliability. remember, the smaller motor the easier this would be. my 1.8 7a with a 300amp alt is still on the lower end of performance (although it would work). and with a 2.2 5s, your looking at an even higher power alt/motor required. time to crack open the books and do some hard calculations

[jgreening]

ok ive thought about this, and i actually think that a 30watt motor could provide a benefit. not by providing boost (although it will provide a miniscule amount), but by eliminating the vaccuum. ok with my 1.8 liter 7a, it will pump around 191 cfm at 6000rpm as i already calculated. the eturbo i sas for sale advertised 250 cfm, which i assume to be correct at a low pressure gradient. like i said, it will create a pressure gradient because of the excess flow, however it will be very small. as ill say again, 30 watts isnt enough power to create significant boost obviously. what i didnt take into account is that typically the pressure in the intake manifold is about around 1psi or more less than atmospheric due to flow restriction in the intake. so, as long as the motor is powerful enough to flow more air through the filter than the engine requires, it SHOULD result in a slight performance gain.

and FAQ, i have to disagree. if a proper electric setup was mass-produced, it could be cheaper or at least similarly priced (only difference really would be etubo instead of turbo, and a high discharge alternator instead of custom exhaust manifold/downpipe), and it would be a little easier to install (no exhaust modification, oil lines to hookup). yes i know it wont be as thermodynamically efficient as a turbo, but it should be somewhat comparable to a supercharger. main advantages again would be installation, controlability, reliability. remember, the smaller motor the easier this would be. my 1.8 7a with a 300amp alt is still on the lower end of performance (although it would work). and with a 2.2 5s, your looking at an even higher power alt/motor required. time to crack open the books and do some hard calculations

Please explain how the reduction of the vacuum reading (to something less than boost) increases performance. I always understood that at vacuum or 0 the combustion chambers are getting the same air and fuel and flow. Are you saying this is incorrect?

[celicaST]

ok ive thought about this, and i actually think that a 30watt motor could provide a benefit. not by providing boost (although it will provide a miniscule amount), but by eliminating the vaccuum. ok with my 1.8 liter 7a, it will pump around 191 cfm at 6000rpm as i already calculated. the eturbo i sas for sale advertised 250 cfm, which i assume to be correct at a low pressure gradient. like i said, it will create a pressure gradient because of the excess flow, however it will be very small. as ill say again, 30 watts isnt enough power to create significant boost obviously. what i didnt take into account is that typically the pressure in the intake manifold is about around 1psi or more less than atmospheric due to flow restriction in the intake. so, as long as the motor is powerful enough to flow more air through the filter than the engine requires, it SHOULD result in a slight performance gain.

and FAQ, i have to disagree. if a proper electric setup was mass-produced, it could be cheaper or at least similarly priced (only difference really would be etubo instead of turbo, and a high discharge alternator instead of custom exhaust manifold/downpipe), and it would be a little easier to install (no exhaust modification, oil lines to hookup). yes i know it wont be as thermodynamically efficient as a turbo, but it should be somewhat comparable to a supercharger. main advantages again would be installation, controlability, reliability. remember, the smaller motor the easier this would be. my 1.8 7a with a 300amp alt is still on the lower end of performance (although it would work). and with a 2.2 5s, your looking at an even higher power alt/motor required. time to crack open the books and do some hard calculations

Please explain how the reduction of the vacuum reading (to something less than boost) increases performance. I always understood that at vacuum or 0 the combustion chambers are getting the same air and fuel and flow. Are you saying this is incorrect?

well im sure youre aware that the mechanics of ICE's is extremely complex. NA engines are engineered to maximize the air mass enclosed in the cylinder after the intake valve closes. the timing of the intake valve is tuned to take maximum advantage of the phenomenon where the intake charge acquires a slight pressure to to rapid change in its velocity. this couples with the vacuum created by the pulse of exiting exhaust gases (exhaust scavenging) can actually create hyperbaric conditions in the chamber at certain speeds. now im not entirely sure that eliminating the vacuum would be benefitial, but my gut feeling says it would (i see no reason why it shouldnt trap more air per stroke), and what the hell, it couldnt hurt

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 10, 2006 - 6:31 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

With the elimiation of the vacum, couldn't this help scavanging? This would help the exhaust pull, pull in more air due to it being readily avalible and not having to "suck" it in. It would just help the flow, I think. Might help these econo heads.

[celicaST]

ok well i just google eturbo+dyno, some finds:



discussion with possible reported dyno results

this one hes reporting is rated at 55amps (significantly more than the first one i saw at 2.2amp, but isnt continuous due to overheating. as long as the pump can flow more air than your engine is flowing, you WILL generate a pressure gradient (but the magnitude depends on the power of the pump). im convinced with a decently power motor, gains will be seen as long as the parasitic load on the alternator doesnt exceed the extra power generated.

heres the actual site for the eram, eram, theres some vids, testimonials and other stuff. make sure to read FAQ and buyers guide (fraud protection). this thing is legit, 2006 model is a 833watt motor (only activated at WOT), 2006. also on the home page, download and read the pdf file of magazine article dyno testing it on a civic. i might try one and see what its like.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 10, 2006 - 8:50 PM

[madmods]

I have one laying around that I will donate if anybody has some dyno time. It basically works like ram air.
Its a boat impellar designed to move air into the cabins through ducting. Lets put it on a dyno to see if it does anything.

[celicaST]

heres the dyno of it that the magazine did. on a 95 civic



not bad for $300.

another interesting read, looks like its already produced, although this article is old VTES

this is probably what everybody has in mind when they are discounting the idea, and this sounds what madmods has (or something similar) e-turbo
ok notice on the box this is 3.5amp motor. now of course it didnt do anything, it doesnt matter if it can flow 230cfm in free air, these kids obviously know nothing about physics. this is so much different than the 833 watt eram motor, which by the way, im considering buying soon.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 12, 2006 - 11:01 PM

[creis]

I know my statement sounded kinda bad, "never got around to it" kinda thing but its true I do stand behind it pushing 10-15 (probably more tward 10, but I cant back that up, its just what i felt it push. The only dyno I know of thats worth going to is 40 miles south, and I had no free time for that.

basicly all the thing was, is a fan, powered by a elecctric RC motor, now for thoes that dont know, RC motors can run Extreamly fast with minimal current.

in reality all a reg turbo is, is a fan pushing air into the motor, the fact that its powerd by the exhaust or a batt really makes no diff (with the exception that a reg turbo spools up and then helps pull the exhaust as well.) thinking about it, the idea of an electronic turbo could (maybe) be better in that if you can push enough air with the fan to create boost you would have far more control over your motors HP output because you can easaly change how much boost you want and when, with a very simple system.

Side note: I'm not saying some cheap turbo would ever be as good as a reg turbo, but just dont think it can do nothing for your motor.

[jgreening]

I know my statement sounded kinda bad, "never got around to it" kinda thing but its true I do stand behind it pushing 10-15 (probably more tward 10, but I cant back that up, its just what i felt it push. The only dyno I know of thats worth going to is 40 miles south, and I had no free time for that.

basicly all the thing was, is a fan, powered by a elecctric RC motor, now for thoes that dont know, RC motors can run Extreamly fast with minimal current.

in reality all a reg turbo is, is a fan pushing air into the motor, the fact that its powerd by the exhaust or a batt really makes no diff (with the exception that a reg turbo spools up and then helps pull the exhaust as well.) thinking about it, the idea of an electronic turbo could (maybe) be better in that if you can push enough air with the fan to create boost you would have far more control over your motors HP output because you can easaly change how much boost you want and when, with a very simple system.

Side note: I'm not saying some cheap turbo would ever be as good as a reg turbo, but just dont think it can do nothing for your motor.

For the record, my question about whether you measured in some way was not discounting what you felt. Altough you never had it on a dyno, I was wondering if you estimated these gains some other way (like a simple boost guage, for example). I have a hard time believing these devices could even result in positive boost of 1psi.

Also, is that dyno graph from the vendor or someone who bought one and tested it? It makes a difference.

[celicaST]

I know my statement sounded kinda bad, "never got around to it" kinda thing but its true I do stand behind it pushing 10-15 (probably more tward 10, but I cant back that up, its just what i felt it push. The only dyno I know of thats worth going to is 40 miles south, and I had no free time for that.

basicly all the thing was, is a fan, powered by a elecctric RC motor, now for thoes that dont know, RC motors can run Extreamly fast with minimal current.

in reality all a reg turbo is, is a fan pushing air into the motor, the fact that its powerd by the exhaust or a batt really makes no diff (with the exception that a reg turbo spools up and then helps pull the exhaust as well.) thinking about it, the idea of an electronic turbo could (maybe) be better in that if you can push enough air with the fan to create boost you would have far more control over your motors HP output because you can easaly change how much boost you want and when, with a very simple system.

Side note: I'm not saying some cheap turbo would ever be as good as a reg turbo, but just dont think it can do nothing for your motor.

im purchasing the e-ram tomorrow, and i will post impressions after installation. i encourage everybody to take a look at this product with an open mind. and like you said, it can be better than a conventional set-up. in fact, ive talked to my brother and we are going to build a high power electric forced induction setup (we are beginning to research and want to have it complete by end of 07, if not much earlier). ive given up on the idea of constantly running the motor because of power issues (and it would require an AC inverter and transformers), instead it will be more akin to the eram (activate at WOT), but with more power. we plan on running a 5+hp electric motor with a multi-stage compressor (kind of like a turbofan jet engine's compressors). it will be powered not the car battery or a seperate battery-pack, but by an ultracapacitor. this is what we are looking at using for power supply.

goal is to provide 10psi max boost on a 1.8L engine.

and it will be quicker than any 7afte running 10psi, because there will be no parasitic losses during periods of boost (power from ultracapicors was stored during periods of disuse from the alternator), and no turbo lag.

not to mention this will be very unique.

it will be a mix between the eram and the electric supercharger by thomas knight. we wont be using a roots blower, and we wont require the power that knights does because we are developing for 1.8L engine (but will also work fine on 2.2L). it will only be activated at WOT, but unlike both it will be powered solely by ultracapitors.

[creis]

well the anser is no it was not tested other then feel.

It is however holding your had over the outlest end wile its running was a good way to tell it pushes a lot of air. also I dont know if you guys have seen the fan blade on it, its not a conventional propeller that has massive restriction because the motor is in the way, its a rotary kinda fan (probably using the rong turm but its a fan that pushes the air horazontaly from the fans center so there is no restriction of the motor, and has a good 30 blades on it verticly from the center.

[celicaST]

I know my statement sounded kinda bad, "never got around to it" kinda thing but its true I do stand behind it pushing 10-15 (probably more tward 10, but I cant back that up, its just what i felt it push. The only dyno I know of thats worth going to is 40 miles south, and I had no free time for that.

basicly all the thing was, is a fan, powered by a elecctric RC motor, now for thoes that dont know, RC motors can run Extreamly fast with minimal current.

in reality all a reg turbo is, is a fan pushing air into the motor, the fact that its powerd by the exhaust or a batt really makes no diff (with the exception that a reg turbo spools up and then helps pull the exhaust as well.) thinking about it, the idea of an electronic turbo could (maybe) be better in that if you can push enough air with the fan to create boost you would have far more control over your motors HP output because you can easaly change how much boost you want and when, with a very simple system.

Side note: I'm not saying some cheap turbo would ever be as good as a reg turbo, but just dont think it can do nothing for your motor.

For the record, my question about whether you measured in some way was not discounting what you felt. Altough you never had it on a dyno, I was wondering if you estimated these gains some other way (like a simple boost guage, for example). I have a hard time believing these devices could even result in positive boost of 1psi.

Also, is that dyno graph from the vendor or someone who bought one and tested it? It makes a difference.

did you read the magazine review? S3 mag review of e-ram

i just dont understand why some of you are so in disbelief that this is possible and actually has a lot of promise. the e-ram is a 833 watt (a little over 1hp) motor forcing air into your intake. this isnt going to provide extraordinary gains, but it will provide gains nonetheless.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 12, 2006 - 10:17 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Wouldn't it be hard to run 10psi due to the engine running bad when not boosting? The timing would be hard to figure I imagin.

[creis]

^ I'v read that, I was not impressed, the thing is kinda a crapy design as far as the fan goes, but 10hp is respectable.

[celicaST]

well the anser is no it was not tested other then feel.

It is however holding your had over the outlest end wile its running was a good way to tell it pushes a lot of air. also I dont know if you guys have seen the fan blade on it, its not a conventional propeller that has massive restriction because the motor is in the way, its a rotary kinda fan (probably using the rong turm but its a fan that pushes the air horazontaly from the fans center so there is no restriction of the motor, and has a good 30 blades on it verticly from the center.

ok lets get this straight once and for all. it doesnt matter how much the air a fan can push in unrestricted air(so holding your hand in front of it isnt going to be a good indication if it will be helpful). like the article i posted above witht the kids trying to use a marine blower. it might be able to blow 250 CFM in free air, but it wont be able to produce a significant pressure gradient becuase its only rated at 3.5amps (approx 42watts). imagine placing the output of a fan (or any compressor whether it be a displacement type or cetrifugal) to a closed container. as pressure builds, the air is trying to push its way out against the fan. the fan rpm will slow as pressure builds. it requires a high power fan and a properly desinged housing/compressor to maintain a significant pressure gradient.

^ I'v read that, I was not impressed, the thing is kinda a crapy design as far as the fan goes, but 10hp is respectable.

why arent you impressed? an axial fan has no inherent disadvange of a centrifugal fan. 10hp for 300 bucks is nice value in my opinion.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Feb 12, 2006 - 11:01 PM

[celicaST]

Wouldn't it be hard to run 10psi due to the engine running bad when not boosting? The timing would be hard to figure I imagin.

why would engine run bad while not boosting? i assumer youre talking about restriction of compressor blades. well if properly designed it should not provide a large restriction. however it will be more restrictive, and since we dont want a really slow car under normal driving, were planning on powering the motor continuosly from alternator(at a lower power) during normal driving (to provide around 0.5-1psi of boost). we thought of using a bypass valve, but thought the other idea to be much better and simpler. i dont get what your trying to say about timing.

[snapshotgt]

If it is possible to hook up some kind of boost gauge (or something else to measure the the output) to these eTurbo's, i'd be glad too try it out on mine...

Let me know...

~snap

This post has been edited by snapshotgt: Feb 12, 2006 - 10:42 PM

[celicaST]

If it is possible to hook up some kind of boost gauge (or something else to measure the the output) to these eTurbo's, i'd be glad too...

Let me know...

~snap

how powerful is your motor in your eturbo?

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Wouldn't it be hard to run 10psi due to the engine running bad when not boosting? The timing would be hard to figure I imagin.

why would engine run bad while not boosting? i assumer youre talking about restriction of compressor blades. well if properly designed it should not provide a large restriction. however it will be more restrictive, and since we dont want a really slow car under normal driving, were planning on powering the motor continuosly from alternator(at a lower power) during normal driving (to provide around 0.5-1psi of boost). we thought of using a bypass valve, but thought the other idea to be much better and simpler. i dont get what your trying to say about timing.

No, I'm talking about how the car adjusts the the amount of air going through it. I just figured it would screw it up to have the on and off again high levels of boost. I think it's more than workable on low levels, but I don't know about high levels. It just seems like it would run weird. I don't know though.

[celicaST]

Wouldn't it be hard to run 10psi due to the engine running bad when not boosting? The timing would be hard to figure I imagin.

why would engine run bad while not boosting? i assumer youre talking about restriction of compressor blades. well if properly designed it should not provide a large restriction. however it will be more restrictive, and since we dont want a really slow car under normal driving, were planning on powering the motor continuosly from alternator(at a lower power) during normal driving (to provide around 0.5-1psi of boost). we thought of using a bypass valve, but thought the other idea to be much better and simpler. i dont get what your trying to say about timing.

No, I'm talking about how the car adjusts the the amount of air going through it. I just figured it would screw it up to have the on and off again high levels of boost. I think it's more than workable on low levels, but I don't know about high levels. It just seems like it would run weird. I don't know though.

why would it screw it up? the engine management responds to incoming data in milliseconds. even conventional turbocharged cars arent always at high boost (or boost at all). i assume youve seen a boost gauge on a turbo car theyre not always at max boost. keep in mind, with our setup we likewise are going to need fuel system upgrades, fuel management, and a intercooler.