Def's Dyno Runs, A learning experience Options

[lagos]

there IS no problem, art.
heres ANOTHER....this time from celicatech...we all know the stock ecu is stupid rich from the factory...why are you denying it now?

im not denying anything, read my posts again. im trying to understand WHY its that ritch. based on those dyno sheets, the 3sgte pretty much has no tuning at all. everything is just set to full bast, 100% duty cycle. it looks like a 5yr old kid tuned it. its kind of hard to belive toyota would intend to tune the car like that.


jeffs car on the other hand, looks like what you would expect a factory tuned motor to look like on a dyno. not too ritch, not to lean. just right.

[presure2]

art, one thing we need to look at is that when we look at these dynos, is the fact that we're only seeing one small slice of the ecu map, WOT only.
i would imagine that toyota set the maps so rich in the WOT part as a saftey measure, to protect the engine from us dumb americans..lol
i would think that on a load bearing dyno like the dyno dynamics ones, at diffrent load points we'd see huge diffrences in way the maps are programed as far as efficency, and a/f raitos would reflect that i would think.
IMO there are 2 things that makes jeffs run look so much better as far as A/F ratio is concerned.
one is the JDM RC ECU, which IMO just has an even more agressive tune than the normal JDM ecu, and a MUCH more agressive one than the USDM.
and, the fact that on that run hes running an average of around 15.5 or so psi with like a 17.5 psi peak, hes just using up more of the available fuel, and IMO thats not even that big of a deal, there are quite a few guys on mr2oc that have runs @ 15psi+ with richer a/f's then what jeff has.

[jgreening]

The a/f at WOT in a USDM 3sgte is set that way for engine safety, reliabiliity, and infrequency of warranty claims.

In short, I agree with everything Manny has said except this:

the fact that on that run hes running an average of around 15.5 or so psi with like a 17.5 psi peak, hes just using up more of the available fuel, and IMO thats not even that big of a deal

If your a/f ration is leaning out due to maxing out your injector duty cycle, you are playing with FIRE!!!!!! I am quite confident that the clean a/f line is attributable to the ECU.

[presure2]

The a/f at WOT in a USDM 3sgte is set that way for engine safety, reliabiliity, and infrequency of warranty claims.

In short, I agree with everything Manny has said except this:

the fact that on that run hes running an average of around 15.5 or so psi with like a 17.5 psi peak, hes just using up more of the available fuel, and IMO thats not even that big of a deal

If your a/f ration is leaning out due to maxing out your injector duty cycle, you are playing with FIRE!!!!!! I am quite confident that the clean a/f line is attributable to the ECU.

ohh i agree with that 100% jay,
im not saying hes maxing out, im just pointing out the fact that @ 15psi your gonna use more of the available fuel than @ 10psi.

[lagos]

finally, instead of giving me a hard time, we are talking about the topic i was trying to bring up !

now what about the bigger AFM and the upgraded fuel rail. if what chrisD said about his sparkplugs with an upgraded rail is true, then this could also have something to do with the a/f ratio. when we put these huge fuel pumps on there, the fuel has to go somewhere. since an FPR is just a spring loaded valve, preset at one tension, its probably going to react differently when it has more fuel to deal with. .......THIS IS MY THEORY/OPINION ONLY. DONT CRUCIFY ME

the other thing we know is that the AFM is a different part number and is bigger. why did toyota do this? does the afm have a better resolution? or is it just bigger so that it can flow more air?

[jgreening]

The a/f at WOT in a USDM 3sgte is set that way for engine safety, reliabiliity, and infrequency of warranty claims.

In short, I agree with everything Manny has said except this:

the fact that on that run hes running an average of around 15.5 or so psi with like a 17.5 psi peak, hes just using up more of the available fuel, and IMO thats not even that big of a deal

If your a/f ration is leaning out due to maxing out your injector duty cycle, you are playing with FIRE!!!!!! I am quite confident that the clean a/f line is attributable to the ECU.

ohh i agree with that 100% jay,
im not saying hes maxing out, im just pointing out the fact that @ 15psi your gonna use more of the available fuel than @ 10psi.

True, but all else being equal (i.e. I don't know the intricacies of the tuning of the Toyota ECUs) the a/f ratios should be similar if you have enough injector. The ECU will only send an amount of fuel required for the given airflow. I would suspect that for any given 3s on the AFM and stock ECU and fuel system, the a/f at WOT, if different, would be richer than off-WOT due to the limits of the AFM and programming the ECU for reliability.

[jgreening]

now what about the bigger AFM and the upgraded fuel rail. if what chrisD said about his sparkplugs with an upgraded rail is true, then this could also have something to do with the a/f ratio. when we put these huge fuel pumps on there, the fuel has to go somewhere. since an FPR is just a spring loaded valve, preset at one tension, its probably going to react differently when it has more fuel to deal with. .......THIS IS MY THEORY/OPINION ONLY. DONT CRUCIFY ME

ART, YOUR A NOOB!!! hehe j/k

Is ChrisD running the stock regulator with an upgraded pump? If so, I think your right. There are a number of swappers, like me, who could not use the stock regulator because it allowed for a HUGE base fp. If he has a properly tuned afpr, I think there is something else going on.

The regulator keeps the f/p constant to the injector so that the injector injects the exact same amount every time (at a given load and rpm). If working properly, the fpr does not allow more fuel to "get by".

[lagos]

now what about the bigger AFM and the upgraded fuel rail. if what chrisD said about his sparkplugs with an upgraded rail is true, then this could also have something to do with the a/f ratio. when we put these huge fuel pumps on there, the fuel has to go somewhere. since an FPR is just a spring loaded valve, preset at one tension, its probably going to react differently when it has more fuel to deal with. .......THIS IS MY THEORY/OPINION ONLY. DONT CRUCIFY ME

ART, YOUR A NOOB!!! hehe j/k

Is ChrisD running the stock regulator with an upgraded pump? If so, I think your right. There are a number of swappers, like me, who could not use the stock regulator because it allowed for a HUGE base fp. If he has a properly tuned afpr, I think there is something else going on.

The regulator keeps the f/p constant to the injector so that the injector injects the exact same amount every time (at a given load and rpm). If working properly, the fpr does not allow more fuel to "get by".

BINGO!!!!!! yes, from what i remember it was a stock fpr with an upgraded rail .

jay, you are the only one who ever had his fuel pressure checked after having a walbro installed. for all we know, we all have the same issue you had and just dont know it. ...... this could explain the very ritch A/F ratio on some of the dyno sheets.

This post has been edited by lagos: Apr 30, 2006 - 12:40 PM

[presure2]

jay, you are the only one who ever had his fuel pressure checked after having a walbro installed. for all we know, we all have the same issue you had and just dont know it. ...... this could explain the very ritch A/F ratio on some of the dyno sheets

yea, but if that was the case, jeff would exibit the same results. hes running the walbro too.

[lagos]

jay, you are the only one who ever had his fuel pressure checked after having a walbro installed. for all we know, we all have the same issue you had and just dont know it. ...... this could explain the very ritch A/F ratio on some of the dyno sheets

yea, but if that was the case, jeff would exibit the same results. hes running the walbro too.

its possible that upgrading to a bigger fuel rail (like the ats) can fix that type of problem.

[jgreening]

The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.

[lagos]

The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.

yes, thats right...and he is also not showing any negative drawbacks from an upgraded fuel pump with a stock fpr. who knows what his dyno would look like on the stock rail with a walbro.

This post has been edited by lagos: May 1, 2006 - 11:53 AM

[presure2]

The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.

yes, thats right...and he is also not showing any negative drawbacks from an upgraded fuel pump with a stock fpr. who knows what his dyno would look like on the stock rail with a walbro.

thats where you come in, art....NOW GET TO THE DYNO!

[lagos]

The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.

yes, thats right...and he is also not showing any negative drawbacks from an upgraded fuel pump with a stock fpr. who knows what his dyno would look like on the stock rail with a walbro.

thats where you come in, art....NOW GET TO THE DYNO!

funny you should say that. im probably going to dyno today!

[presure2]

The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.

yes, thats right...and he is also not showing any negative drawbacks from an upgraded fuel pump with a stock fpr. who knows what his dyno would look like on the stock rail with a walbro.

thats where you come in, art....NOW GET TO THE DYNO!

funny you should say that. im probably going to dyno today!

awesome! be sure to bring a floppy so you can get the runfiles!

[lagos]

so i guess i was wrong about the upgraded fuel pump/ fuel rail issue. the upgraded pumps on a stock rail and fpr dosnt seem to cause the car to run too ritch. the crazy ritch issue that you see with the 3sgte dynos seems to be a problem on usdm ecu's.

[zipstrips]

im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)

[lagos]

im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)

its the same 440cc injectors.

i wonder what the reason for changing the afm was?

This post has been edited by lagos: May 3, 2006 - 11:47 PM

[Defgeph]

im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)

its the same 440cc injectors.

i wonder what the reason for changing the afm was?

Different fuel maps in the RC ECU.

[lagos]

im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)

its the same 440cc injectors.

i wonder what the reason for changing the afm was?

Different fuel maps in the RC ECU.

do you have a link to any info that says this? based on our dynos, our tuning and power looks to be the same.