Finished 99 GT 3S-GTE Swap from Dr. Tweak UPDATE W/PICS AND VID Page 3, Titled "The Thing That Should Not Be" Options

[jgreening]

Here's some threads for your reading enjoyment:

Thread #1

Thread #2

Thread #3

There are tons more if you search. Essentially, with user programmable controls, a mustang or dyno dynamics dyno can be set up to read as much as 100% variation. They are good for holding load to tune cells though.

This post has been edited by jgreening: Jul 20, 2006 - 6:09 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

Note this post made by GenIIIMrDuece in the second thread.

I have a Dynodynamics dyno. I used to have a Dynojet 248c. I will never use anything else after switching to dynodynamics. The DOS based software sucks... but the dyno itself blows dynojet outa the water. yes it reads lower, but you can change the corection factor to 1.13 instead of 1.00 to make dynojet numbers if you really wanted.

The dyno this is going to run on is set to the 1.13 correction factor, that's how they run it on all the cars that they tune.

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Jul 20, 2006 - 6:24 PM

[jgreening]

Since this is a cool thread about Fastbird's swap, I am not going to debate whether numbers from these different dyno types can be compared.

[Defgeph]

I like the response to that post

LMAO. Thanks for proving Aaron's point. What's to stop you from changing it to say, 1.50? Or 2.0?

I'm not arguing about whether the Dyno Dynamics is a great dyno for tuning. I'm sure it is. It's pretty clear that it is NOT a great dyno for obtaining accurate horsepower numbers with no possibility that those numbers have been tampered with.

Thats from Ken Blake.


A dyno number should be an uncorrected number. For tuning purposes Dyno Dynamics is the right choice. To get a honest number, you need a Dynojet.

[presure2]

dyno dynamics dynos are GREAT for tuning, the load hold capabilitys are awesome.
for consistant, comparable #'s, the dynojet is the well known standard.
good luck with your project fastbird, i hope tuning goes well for you.
with a full 3" exhaust setup, intake and 15psi, tuned, on a JDM ecu, im gonna guess around 230-245whp.

[easternpiro1]

i think im going to cry....im happy for you fastbird...i wanna thank doc tweak myself and i dont even have the swap! the reason why im writing in green is because im JEALOUS!!!!

This post has been edited by easternpiro1: Jul 20, 2006 - 8:25 PM

[snapshotgt]

We DEMAND pics and vids!!!!

~snap

[lagos]

dyno dynamics dynos are GREAT for tuning, the load hold capabilitys are awesome.
for consistant, comparable #'s, the dynojet is the well known standard.
good luck with your project fastbird, i hope tuning goes well for you.
with a full 3" exhaust setup, intake and 15psi, tuned, on a JDM ecu, im gonna guess around 230-245whp.

i agree.

dyno jet is pretty much the gold standard for just WOT dyno numbers that you can compare.
every dyno ive seen from a dyno dynamics or a mustang dyno always shows a much higher number then a dynojet .

there really isint a lot of power to be gaind from tuning a JDM ecu. it runs very agressving timing and fuel. the real bottle neck is with the ct26... my guess is 230-240ish hp/TQ at 15psi . somewhere in that ball park, give or take 5hp

fastbird, if you ever take it to a dynojet make sure to post up the run file. that way we can compare it to the runs that me, manny and jeff did.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 20, 2006 - 10:25 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

Art, do you have those runs all together in one place? I'd love to see them. Maybe we should start a "Celica Dyno Sheet Thread" or something.

We could even call it "Teh Official 6GC Dyno Sheet Thread"! LOL

-Doc

[Defgeph]

I would like to see a dyno sheet thread as well.


Congrats again Fastbird !!!!!!!!!!

[Fastbird]

Ok guys, here's my take.

Dynojet's are the industry standard for numbers, plain and simple. However, they're a no-load style dyno and use a standard 3000 lb drum (on the 248C at least). The inability to add or release tension while making a run to simulate real world road conditions (weight, frontal area for the drag coefficient of the specific vehicle) means that the numbers are relatively inaccurate.

Dyno's like the Mustang and Dyno Dynamics are actually MORE accurate if everything is calibrated correctly, which isn't hard to do. Yes they can be fudged, but the people you find doing that are the ones who are dyno racing for huge numbers as a marketing tool or bragging rights. Spend enough time around dyno shops and tuning facilities and you'll start to see how the numbers really stack up. On average, you can add about 3-5% HP and 10% TQ when transferring Mustang/Dyno Dynamics numbers to a Dynojet. I have seen this conversion repeated with fairly good accuracy quite a few times.

*Edit 2* I'm going to throw a couple more points in here concerning dyno's. You're going to have variations from dyno to dyno of the same sort, so comparing dynojet to dynojet results isn't going to be an accurate thing either. I know someone mentioned seeing nothing but higher numbers coming off of Mustang and Dyno Dynamics when compared to a dynojet, but you have to take in to account conditions, calibrations, SAE or STD power on the dynojet readout, ect. This is why dyno racing is crappy in it's own right, because there are too many variables to accurately compare numbers. Dyno's are nothing more than a great tuning tool. That's some of the best advice I've ever gotten. Admittedly, it's fun to compare numbers and see good results on the dyno, but the adage that track times don't lie holds true. anyway.......

The guys at ST Performance had theirs set up correctly for conditions and the Celica, I watched them do it. Time to let the cat out of the bag, we've already dyno tuned the car.

First pull, untuned, stock boost, made 210 HP (never looked at the tq).

Turned up the boost to 15 PSI, first pull there with no tuning netted 240 HP. Doc and I were both like "woah, that's awesome."

After tuning, final numbers were 248.9 HP @ 5600 RPM and 255 Lb/Ft of torque at something like 4500 RPM (dyno sheet is in the car). Those are real world numbers and the car backs them up on the road like you wouldn't believe (just ask my wife who was driving our 345 RWHP 93 TRans Am and did a 5th gear pull against the Celi in 5th also -- the Trans Am was out of it's powerband and she shut down early, but not before getting walked on by a car length or so). This was with IAT's in the 160 range (needs a more dense intercooler core) in 97* temps with about 35% humidity. Colder weather output would have been better. My dyno sheet I had printed showed 247.3 because it was the last pull of the day we made and the car was heat soaking pretty bad.

I may take it to a dynojet once we get cooler weather, I may not. *Edit* Actually, I think I will do it eventually as I want to make some changes to the tune and re-verify a couple of things, so I'll definitely get the run file so we can overlay everything for fun. I like that idea guys. */Edit* I happen to prefer the numbers that Dyno Dynamics or Mustang dyno's give as they're more accurate given correct calibration. On a dynojet on the same day this car would most likely have been well into the 250's on HP and 260-275 TQ. See why I say it torque steers like a mofo?!?!? Dr. Tweak and I were both stunned with the results to say the least. I'm half tempted to show up at the Philly meet on Saturday just to get some impressions of the swapped guys there (I.E. driving impressions) but probably won't make it just due to my schedule that day.

I'll be posting some dyno vids in this thread (a really cool one of the chart being made real time on a pull) as well as charts of the following: HP and TQ, HP and AFR, HP and Boost, for referencing purposes.

So, for now, we didn't break that 250 mark like we had hoped, but 248.9 is pretty dang close, and the 255 TQ is pretty dang impressive. I happen to think that the OUTSTANDING custom 3" exhaust by ST Performance had a huge impact on how things ended up. Thanks to them for the outstanding work (and ordering a set of S-Tech springs for us too, can't wait for those) and huge thanks to Dr. Tweak for all the work and effort, as it's paid off well. My wife (who primarily will drive the car) loves is, and I think you all already know that I'm getting a kick out of it.

This post has been edited by Fastbird: Jul 21, 2006 - 12:23 AM

[lagos]

Art, do you have those runs all together in one place? I'd love to see them. Maybe we should start a "Celica Dyno Sheet Thread" or something.

We could even call it "Teh Official 6GC Dyno Sheet Thread"! LOL

-Doc

yeah i have them, but talk to all the other guys to see if they want their files posted up or not. mine is nothing to brag about becasue i had major issues on the dyno . ill have to go again soon so that i can get a good run in.

I happen to prefer the numbers that Dyno Dynamics or Mustang dyno's give as they're more accurate given correct calibration.

well, just go to a dynojet if you can and get the run files. all dynos are going to give you a different number, but if you go to a dynojet then we can all compare our numbers and a/f ratios side by side and learn more about our cars.

[Fastbird]

well, just go to a dynojet if you can and get the run files. all dynos are going to give you a different number, but if you go to a dynojet then we can all compare our numbers and a/f ratios side by side and learn more about our cars.

I plan to. I actually need to hit the dyno sometime in the not too distant future as I need to work on the tune for our running Trans Am and need a baseline on the Vette, so it would probably be the perfect time to hit the Celi again too.

Lagos, seeing that you're in the Philly area, are you familiar with Xotic Motorsports in Cochranville PA?? It's about 45 minutes west of Philly and I've done some work there before on the dyno. Good rates and good guys working there. If you want sometime and can make it, swing out there when I'm going to get the Celica on the rollers and we can make a same day comparison between the cars for the highest probability of accuracy.

Dustin, you asked how it compared to the Vette. It's not nearly as brutal, and doesn't have the "on rails" sports car feel that the vette does, but then again it doesn't rattle and ahve as cheap feeling of an interior either. I will say that the vette would happily dispatch the Celica at any point on the road though. The LS1 is just a screamer from a roll.

[lagos]

i remember the name of that place, but ive never been there. if its really only 45min away, then i can definetly meet up with you there and dyno. i go to phillydynoworks.com . its an awd dyno jet...and the guys there are really cool . one of them owns an mr2!

is xotic a dyno jet?

[presure2]

i dont wanna clutter up fastbirds thread with dyno sheets.
imma start a dyno registry here.
the deal is ALLLL you guys have to post your sheets, and keep them updated!

[Fastbird]

i remember the name of that place, but ive never been there. if its really only 45min away, then i can definetly meet up with you there and dyno. i go to phillydynoworks.com . its an awd dyno jet...and the guys there are really cool . one of them owns an mr2!

is xotic a dyno jet?

Yeah, Xotic is running a dynojet 248C. What's the prices at the place you recommended?? At Xotic you can do 3 pulls w/wide band for about $60 or 75 and dyno time for tuning was $100 an hour I believe (been a while since I've been there).

[lagos]

its like 4 pulls for 60ish on a dyno jet at phlly dynoworks

if u can, call xotic and ask them if they have the ability to log boost on their dyno jet. ive been trying to find one that can.

let me know when u want to go. i did a mapquest to xotic and its about 1hr drive and 50miles away ...so thats not too bad. ive been wanting to dyno my car again, because the last time i went i had issues with the spark plugs, so i dont feel like i ever got a good run in.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 21, 2006 - 9:34 AM

[Fastbird]

its like 4 pulls for 60ish on a dyno jet at phlly dynoworks

if u can, call xotic and ask them if they have the ability to log boost on their dyno jet. ive been trying to find one that can.

let me know when u want to go. i did a mapquest to xotic and its about 1hr drive and 50miles away ...so thats not too bad. ive been wanting to dyno my car again, because the last time i went i had issues with the spark plugs, so i dont feel like i ever got a good run in.

Lagos, I'm not sure that any dynojet will have the ability to log boost. I have yet to see it.

I'll be sure to let you know when I'm ready to head there. Gotta clean up a couple of little things first so give me a couple of weeks to find the money and time at this point.

Here's a thought about the dyno's. We all know that they Dynojet is pretty much the industry standard for power numbers. But think real world. The dynojet uses 3000 lb rollers unloaded. Food for thought, anyone check the weights on their cars?? Probably will be around 2600-2700 lbs sans driver. So if anything, on the surface at least, the dynojet is going to give you less than real world numbers for your Celica.

[presure2]

Lagos, I'm not sure that any dynojet will have the ability to log boost. I have yet to see it.

I'll be sure to let you know when I'm ready to head there. Gotta clean up a couple of little things first so give me a couple of weeks to find the money and time at this point.

Here's a thought about the dyno's. We all know that they Dynojet is pretty much the industry standard for power numbers. But think real world. The dynojet uses 3000 lb rollers unloaded. Food for thought, anyone check the weights on their cars?? Probably will be around 2600-2700 lbs sans driver. So if anything, on the surface at least, the dynojet is going to give you less than real world numbers for your Celica.
[/quote]
actually ALL dynojets have the ABLILITY, its a matter of wether or not the dyno owner chooses to purchace the neccicary equipment to do so.
my local dyno does.
your thought on the dynojet is flawed.
i dynoed my car, pre turbo, and the #s fall exactly in line with what toyota rated the engine to @ the flywheel.

[Fastbird]

your thought on the dynojet is flawed.
i dynoed my car, pre turbo, and the #s fall exactly in line with what toyota rated the engine to @ the flywheel.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it flawed. Take into account the Firebirds/Camaro's I'm used to dealing with. These are portly cars, around 3600 LBS or so. They'll put out one number on a dynojet, and then when taken to a mustang or Dyno Dynamics dyno which is loaded with the correct vehicle weight, will put out lesser numbers and substantially less torque. It's been proven over and over. Perhaps it's more of a player in cars that weigh MORE than the drums, I can't say for sure.

I'm not trying to discredit dynojet's at all. I like them (Heck, I like all dyno's, they're fun to play on), but I just feel that they're not as accurate as other options out there. Rumor has it that Dynojet is well aware of this and is in the process of putting together a dyno like the Dyno DYnamics or Mustang dyno's because they're seeing a noticable swing in the market towards those two (and moreso towards the Mustand dyno). Competition is a good thing, and the best part is that the numbers are going to become more and more accurate.

Here's an example. Typical JDM ECU and 3S-GTE swaps typically dyno at around 190-210 to the wheels right?? Ours with a custom 3" exhaust and no tweaking at all made 210 the first pull. That's right in line there if you ask me.