JL Audio W7 Options

[KB-2]

and uhmm reccomend any wiring kits? or wires etc etc...?? at this point i might as well get all ED stuff......so like power wire, speaker wire, stuff like that.....like wire sizes and stuff...?

This post has been edited by KB-2: Mar 16, 2007 - 10:57 AM

[applejax]

There's a lot of misconceptions flying around this thread.

That eD suggestion is, by far, the best and most complete thought in this thread.

Good job stating the obvious, but please if you say there are a lot of misconceptions, then correct them, and maybe add a "complete thought" of your own.

Well, I did add a complete thought, I like the eD suggestion. It's easy, it should do what KB-2 is looking for, and based on the implication that we are looking for something easy, it's a "set", a one shot-deal so to speak, at a reasonable price. Oh, and eD tech support is excellent. We don't have him running around trying to match impedance, wattage, efficiency, we're not mentioning crossover points and airspace and whatnot.



If we want to get more complex, I'd start with the generalization that a mediocre sub and amp will sound good in a proper enclosure. If you want to be heard "from a lil bit away", then face the subs towards the back of the car. Even two decent 10's in this configuration with a moderate amount of power should move enough air and cause enough vibrations to meet or exceed what KB-2 is looking for.



Since there was no actual mention of sound quality, we won't discuss it at this time.



Now, to keep you happy, let's find one or two of those misconceptions.



A cap is a solution to a specific problem...it's been a while and I can't recall the technical name at this time, but it is essentially when the alternator can't provide current quickly enough, and you have a momentary dip in voltage. Many people randomly say to "put a cap in", which is attempting to solve a problem that may not even exist.



While we're at it, let's move to the battery. A bigger battery isn't the solution to a high current draw unless you like (or need) to play the system and draw that current while the car is off.



Before all these measures to problems that may or may not exist are implemented, it may be better to focus on the setup - a reasonable one that won't draw too much current in the first place. Get that installed, then determine if there is a problem, and if so how to fix it.

[Rockford]

and uhmm reccomend any wiring kits? or wires etc etc...?? at this point i might as well get all ED stuff......so like power wire, speaker wire, stuff like that.....like wire sizes and stuff...?

The JL subs works with every kind of music (i got a pair of old School W3) and i could say you that they are the winners.... if you want get a good SQ i'll recommend you JL subs.... they're kid of expensives but you're getting a great quality, so... the W7 need a lot of power...


How much do you want to spend???


One Monoblock amp that ' could recommend you is between, the JL monoblock 1500/1 for both subs
The kicker ZX 1300.1
or Two crossfire VR1000D

The wiring kit sould be good, cause you need the mos quantity of energy, then if you'll install those subs.. i'll recommend you a 2gauge positive cable, 16 gauge cable for the speakers, Stinger RCA cables or tsunami, there are so many brands of Audio cables....

what else do you want to install????

[applejax]

right? my only question.....is what freking size are those woofers? it dosent say anywhere?

Specs tab. If you are looking for the outside diameter:

Outside Diameter: 10.250"

and will that amp give enough power for 2 of those subs???

The "more power information" link shows that each sub will be quite happy somewhere between 200w and about 600w. You have several wiring options between going with a 2 Ohm DVC or a 4 Ohm DVC sub, but you should easily get your power into that range. My suggestion would be to contact eD directly and see what their recommendation is.

and uhmm reccomend any wiring kits? or wires etc etc...?? at this point i might as well get all ED stuff......so like power wire, speaker wire, stuff like that.....like wire sizes and stuff...?

What wiring and equipment is already in the car?

[pittfirefighter]

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_i...ts_id=130\

Get this wiring kit, it's all tsunami wires, this will work just fine

As for subs and amps, just get what i said before, yes one nine.1 will be just fine, it can power both subs at 2ohms, just make sure you get the dual 2 ohm version of the sub

Only part of the system i'm not sure about is the box you found... it will sound good and the vented will hit harder than non-vented but just check out the size specs, it should fit in the celica but i don't have a celica or tape measure on had

ok time to clarify a few things since everyone seems to be learning a great deal from this post...

A cap is a solution to a specific problem...it's been a while and I can't recall the technical name at this time, but it is essentially when the alternator can't provide current quickly enough, and you have a momentary dip in voltage. Many people randomly say to "put a cap in", which is attempting to solve a problem that may not even exist.

A capacitor should be put in anytime the voltage draw per sub exceeds 600 watts, it easily draws enough power at this amount to damage both your battery and alternator... which brings me to my next point....

While we're at it, let's move to the battery. A bigger battery isn't the solution to a high current draw unless you like (or need) to play the system and draw that current while the car is off.

WRONG! The battery has everything to do with the car being ON and off. When your lights dim from a hard hit, the current comes from the battery not the alternator, the alternator then tries to replace this current which it usually can't do fast enough which is why your lights dim, NOW... there was no mention of a BIGGER battery... there was however mention of an optima yellow top deep cycle battery... DEEP CYCLE... it means its an actual battery compared to stock batteries... which are more like caps... quick discharge and then no power until recharged

but back to the relevance of this information on this post...
A. these two were talked about when drawing 2000watts with the JL subs
B. at two ohms... you might need a capacitor in the celica... and i'm saying this for one reason only... if you push your brakes at night... your lights dim its only a 70 amp alternator.... but one good point from that ridiculous post earlier... get the system first, and then see if you need the cap

you should have all the links now to all the equipment you need.... remember DUAL 2OHM, and check those box specs to see if it will fit

[applejax]

A capacitor should be put in anytime the voltage draw per sub exceeds 600 watts,

Yeah? That's a pretty specific number. Care to explain where it came from? Please also clarify where this fluctuation in "voltage draw" is coming from.

WRONG! The battery has everything to do with the car being ON and off. When your lights dim from a hard hit, the current comes from the battery not the alternator, the alternator then tries to replace this current which it usually can't do fast enough which is why your lights dim, NOW... there was no mention of a BIGGER battery... there was however mention of an optima yellow top deep cycle battery... DEEP CYCLE... it means its an actual battery compared to stock batteries... which are more like caps... quick discharge and then no power until recharged

Ummm...no. The battery is to start the car and provide power when the car is off. When running, the alternator switches between charging the battery and operating the accessories in your car. Sure, if you want to run high current draws with the engine off, then you need another battery - and be sure to isolate it so that it doesn't kill your starting battery.



If your car cannot provide sufficient current, then the voltage drops. That's why your lights dim. If the lights dim continually while the system is playing, you need more current. That means a bigger alternator or upgraded charging system, not a battery.

[pittfirefighter]

so you're telling me the alternator switches? it decides to play for the other team? put a voltage meter on it... the battery is 12.5volts standing, 14+ charging... the current comes from the battery, not the alternator, alternator charges that's all, yeah 600 watts is the general rule of thumb for us who do this professionally, now theres always factors to consider but thats the general rule...

[applejax]

so you're telling me the alternator switches? it decides to play for the other team? put a voltage meter on it... the battery is 12.5volts standing, 14+ charging... the current comes from the battery, not the alternator, alternator charges that's all, yeah 600 watts is the general rule of thumb for us who do this professionally, now theres always factors to consider but thats the general rule...

When the accessories do not require full power from the alternator, then part of its output is used to charge the battery. So yes, it "switches".



If you are implying that the current to operate your accessories comes from your battery when the car is running, then I have an experiment for you. With your car running, unhook your battery. Do your power windows still work? Does your radio?



So you are saying that 600 watts instantly requires a cap? Is that RMS or peak? Is this 600 watts based on a class A/B amp, a class D amp, or maybe a true class A? You specified something about the requirement being based on voltage before. What if I have an amp that draws 100 amps of current?



This post has been edited by applejax: Mar 16, 2007 - 3:17 PM

[pittfirefighter]

OMG this is precious...

600 watts is RMS and thats if you actually have it wired to pull 600 watts, peak is only a number given to the the lowest "stable" resistance on the amp... now i say "stable" cause this number is derived from a split second test on the amp at extremely low frequency at low resistance, peak is never practical as you are using the amp for more than a split second unless you're in an actual SPL comp. that goes for any class cause they all draw the same voltage, amperage, and power, class has to due with circuitry and the ability to run stable at different resistance

AS for a 100AMP amplifier, you would have to be pushing between 10000 (yes ten thousand) and 160000 (one hundred and sixty thousand) watts of power to the subs, ummm you might need a cap :-p

as for your little experiment, all you proved is that the alt can provide electricity, wow i think we knew that... but here's a test for ya smart guy... take a voltage meter, put it across the terminals of the battery and put a decent sized amp on the car with the car running, like a 1300 watt kenwood... run it at two ohms (class D, should run at 1 ohm, they never do though and everyone knows that)... after a few bass hits on an impala alternator... yes 102amp alternator... the battery voltage reads 11.2 and dropping... wait i thought the battery didn't matter when the car is on? even a 102amp alternator couldn't handle 1300 watts to the subs... OH wait, an optima yellow top fixed the problem... chalk one up for deep cycle batteries

as for this whole ridiculous debate on the charging of the alternator, the battery and alternator are in parallel anyways so it doesn't even matter, but what does matter is that the battery has everything to do with the car on and off, i like to see you try to prove a point that doesn't exist, the truth is that the battery is at a lower potential than the alternator so the alternator is always charging the battery AND the battery and alternator are equal in providing power... theres a lot of info in this post...

anyways... KB.. did you figure out your audio setup?

[KB-2]

okay guys...uhh relax?

i think im gonan go w/ what you were saying: the 11 Ov2? subs by elemental designs, and then the nine.1 amp, w/ the custom box made by ED aswell. the box will fit no prob im pretty sure, i know height and depth are no prob, i jsut need to measure the width.. its a bit harder w/ a coupe. lol


but i think im gonna go w/ the two 10's, and hope that, it will be able to "bump" pretty well, i want some clean bass, but i also like to bummp alot....so tahts my only concern right now, becasue ive never heard these subs in person......right now i ahve one 15' type R and it BUMPS, but its a lil excessive i think....but thats my only real thought right now....is the "Bumpage factor"

[applejax]

After reading your last post, pittfirefighter, I started picking apart your arguements, but I'm not going to bother. You really should do some reading before you so animately spread misinformation.



Here - this site is commonly kicked around, and I even found a page for you. Read the second paragraph slowly and absorb it.

[applejax]

okay guys...uhh relax?

Good idea. Let's get you some bass.



I don't know if you mind used equipment, but if you don't you can save a good penny or two. This kind of stuff pops up rather frequently in the for sale section of ICIX, which is the eD forum.

This post has been edited by applejax: Mar 19, 2007 - 8:55 AM

[AudioFreak]

AS for a 100AMP amplifier, you would have to be pushing between 10000 (yes ten thousand) and 160000 (one hundred and sixty thousand) watts of power to the subs, ummm you might need a cap :-p

WATTS/VOLTS = AMPS

let's see 10000/12 = 833 amps
and 160000/12 = 1333 amps Yikes!!!

If you reverse the formula AMPS X VOLTS = WATTS
100x12 = 1200 watts

In a perfect world amps are 100% efficient and waste no power. In our world they do waste power (thats where the heat comes from). Somewhere between 50 and 70% is what you can expect. So that 1200 watts on paper is gonna be somewhere between 600 and 840 watts in the real world.

Now as far as what subs to get and what amp. Any really good shop should let you demo a bunch of different subs first in the showroom till you pick out a few you really like and then throw them in your car to see how they will sound in your celi.

Everybody's ears are different and what sound's good to one person sounds horrible to another. You need to find what sounds right too YOU.

Also what kind of enclosure you use effects the sound. Ported boxes are louder but not as tight as a sealed. Bandpass gives you the volume and punch but only in a small freq range. It's a game of give and take. Again a good shop will be able to show you the options and work with you to find what you are looking for.

[pittfirefighter]

KB - you will get all the thump you need, you will probably have to turn the bass boost down

[GTS13]

Ok now I hope your well on your way to adding some bass to your system.

As for the other arguments going on in this thread I would love to jump in. First off I should hope no one believes everything they read on the internet because that diagram shown before about the charging system is wrong, although it is right in a way.
As you use more electrical accessories, such as lights, heater etc., the electro-motive force decreases and more amperage flows into the battery to compensate for the added load. It is extremely important that when alternator efficiency is checked, both voltage and amperage outputs are checked. Each alternator has a rated amperage output depending on the electrical requirements of the vehicle.
So where the power leads off to other components in that diagram is wrong, all power flows through the battery. Yes you may be able to remove the battery after the system has started and still get current from the alternator but I wouldn't recommend trying that with all your stuff on and your sound as loud as it'll go, lol. Unless of course you have an alternator that can handle all that, but the idea is that you should have to shell out for that kind of alternator.
Deep cycle batteries and capacitors should be a valuable part of any heavy bass setup. If you want more info on those then I will be more than happy to supply those as well.

Edit: Because they aren't always needed, capacitors and deep cycle batteries should always be purchased to fix any dimming issues should they occur.

This post has been edited by GTS13: Mar 20, 2007 - 4:47 PM

[applejax]

You've said the point exactly:

Unless of course you have an alternator that can handle all that

If you experience electrical problems after you put your stereo in and you attempt to resolve it with a bigger battery or a cap, chances are you are merely treating the symptom and not the actual problem. If your charging system isn't up to the task in the first place, adding a larger battery or cap will only add strain on your already overtaxed charging system.



Sing with me. C'mon, everyone all together.



Alternators are used in automobiles to charge the battery and to power all the car's electric systems when its engine is running. [Wikipedia]



the vehicle's engine-driven alternator powers the vehicle's electrical systems and restores charge used from the battery during engine cranking. [Wikipedia]



A car's battery is designed to provide a very large amount of current for a short period of time. [HowStuffWorks]



The addition of a secondary battery will increase the amount of time you can listen to the audio system with the engine not running. When the engine is running, the secondary battery is an additional load to the alternator. [Rockford Fosgate]



Remember that the function of a battery is to start the vehicle and to provide power when the vehicle is not running...After the vehilce is started the second battery becomes another load on an already overworked alternator...[Car Audio Help]

[KB-2]

okay....so now i jsut need to decide waht type of box...

it would be made by ED and they have them on their site, and it would be for the 11ov2 subs...10'

so i cnat decide if i want a sealed box, or a ported box....
i know poreted is louder, and sealed is "tighter" but waht do you guys think will sound better w/ these subs???

and size dimensions, either one will fit in the coupe...but the sealed box is ALOT smaller. 7' deep as apposed to 17' !!! so i do sorta need trunk space for junk that i haul around...so rihgt now im thinking sealed....but i also want it to be loud, and if sealed is gonan get rid of my thump...then ill reconsider

This post has been edited by KB-2: Mar 21, 2007 - 10:25 AM

[applejax]

What type of music do you listen to?

[KB-2]

Rap/hip-hop/whatever its called and rock/alternative

its a even mix of both...

[applejax]

want to be able to atleast pound a little....like so you cna hear me coming from a lil bit away.

i know the 12's will be much louder and pound more, but i really want to get that tight clean punchy bass

Rap/hip-hop/whatever its called and rock/alternative
its a even mix of both...

Problem is, these statements are rather contradictory. Oftentimes, what people say and what people mean are two different things (which may or may not be the case here).



I normally don't associate "pound" or "thump" with "tight clean punchy bass". So when you say

and if sealed is gonan get rid of my thump

, that statement makes me think you'd be happier with a ported box. The eD vented boxes I saw are tuned at 30Hz, which may be an interesting compromise for you. It should be a flexible tradeoff where you could adjust the bass either on your radio (depending on it's curve and central frequency) or by a small eq to give you more "thump" if desired.



You could also try facing the box in different directions. Facing the sub and the vent towards the back of the car will create all kinds of harmonics and stuff that may suit you. You would definitely "feel it" more with it rearward facing, but at the loss of some tightness. The interesting thing is that the sub / box aren't any less accurate, but the sound will be more boomy. You are hearing less of the direct pressure and air movement and more of the vibrations and reflections through the car. The effect will intensify the closer the box is towards the rear of the car.



Oops - I am starting to get into a bit of tuning. Let's hold off on that.



I looked at the sealed boxes, too. While the eD sealed boxes don't show any frequency response, they are on the small side, so chances are they are going to need a bit of power - but once they get it, the response should be nice and tight with a relatively steep rolloff. This looks like a real nice box for music such as rock and jazz.



Hope that helps your decision.



*Disclaimer: The poster is not bound by any accuracy, stated or implied, of the previous post. Any similarities to actual people, fictional or real, may or may not be a coincidence.