wrc st205, Dyno sheets PG 11 :) 342whp 336ft/lbs Options

[delusionz]

Thanks again Jim, I'll be looking forward to the pictures with the Garrett to check for fitment space between the front of the engine/headers/charge cooler and the radiator fans.

Will you be using a manifold adapter with an ext. gate? or will you use an internally gated turbo?

Fingers crossed everything will fit and the compressor output will line up with the charge cooler port using a 2.5" 45 deg. elbow joiner.

[_Jim_]

Thanks again Jim, I'll be looking forward to the pictures with the Garrett to check for fitment space between the front of the engine/headers/charge cooler and the radiator fans.

Will you be using a manifold adapter with an ext. gate? or will you use an internally gated turbo?

Fingers crossed everything will fit and the compressor output will line up with the charge cooler port using a 2.5" 45 deg. elbow joiner.

Anytime man.

It wont be a GT3071, but an S252. The Borg Warner S252 is directly comparable to the GT3071 in terms of spool and power. I only said GT3071 because it is a well known turbo so people would have a better clue on what turbo "size" I chose.

I will not be using a Manifold adapter. This turbo bolts DIRECTLY to the stock manifold, and I will be running it internally gated also, as long as I dont experience any creep issues. If I do, then I will weld and convert to an External wastgate. Since there is no Adpater needed to run this turbo, there are NO clearance issues with the radiator and the fans. IN FACT, this turbo still fits under the factory heat shield so I can resume some sleeper status when I pop my hood.

As for the compressor outlet lining up with the W2A IC inlet, that shouldnt be a problem as I can clock the turbo in any position that I want. If I stay Internally gated, then I will probably make an adapter plate for the acutator so I can postion the turbo to line up with the IC just like the CT20B does, then I can just use a straight coupler just like stock.

This is one of the biggest hold ups on the car, so once the turbo gets in, I can button her all back up again. Then dyno results shortly after.

[presure2]

Any word on the new turbo yet jimbo? Been waiting on a REAL update since febuary!
All this time waiting on a turbo... you should have been enjoying the turbo you DID have.
It's a shame you took everything apart thinking it would be in quick.
Oh well, more time for reasearch isn't a bad thing!!!
Can't wait for some new news!!!

[95CelicaST]

This thread is damned inspiring. Can't wait to see the results of the new turbo.


And Manny, what is going to cost to get the "M" in JDM Guy to fly out to WA to help with my 205 swap this coming spring?

[_Jim_]

Message from Baktash my turbo has been shipped out today. Shannon's will be shipped in the next couple days. Both projects should be moving forward right in time for winter!

[_Jim_]

Any word on the new turbo yet jimbo? Been waiting on a REAL update since febuary!
All this time waiting on a turbo... you should have been enjoying the turbo you DID have.
It's a shame you took everything apart thinking it would be in quick.
Oh well, more time for reasearch isn't a bad thing!!!
Can't wait for some new news!!!

I have to be honest. I have no regrets pulling the motor is preperation for the new turbo, because due to the unexpected downtime waiting to receive this turbo, I had time to do A LOT of things that I planned for next year, and years later. In fact, Baktash REALLY took care of me for being so patient, and we worked something out....so dont worry about that . Since I had this unexpected avaiable downtime presented to me, I am able to complete the car a few years eailer then I expected......the saying goes, when you are handed lemons, make lemonade.

Correct, I haven't given a "REAL" update on the car since February, BUT as I said earlier...I will post everything up when I am DONE. There WILL be big updates when I am COMPLETELY finished with the car....as I was awarded options that VERY few people would ever have the chance at, so I capitalized on it. You will just have to keep waiting.....SORRY

[presure2]

Any word on the new turbo yet jimbo? Been waiting on a REAL update since febuary!
All this time waiting on a turbo... you should have been enjoying the turbo you DID have.
It's a shame you took everything apart thinking it would be in quick.
Oh well, more time for reasearch isn't a bad thing!!!
Can't wait for some new news!!!

I have to be honest. I have no regrets pulling the motor is preperation for the new turbo, because due to the unexpected downtime waiting to receive this turbo, I had time to do A LOT of things that I planned for next year, and years later. In fact, Baktash REALLY took care of me for being so patient, and we worked something out....so dont worry about that . Since I had this unexpected avaiable downtime presented to me, I am able to complete the car a few years eailer then I expected......the saying goes, when you are handed lemons, make lemonade.

Correct, I haven't given a "REAL" update on the car since February, BUT as I said earlier...I will post everything up when I am DONE. There WILL be big updates when I am COMPLETELY finished with the car....as I was awarded options that VERY few people would ever have the chance at, so I capitalized on it. You will just have to keep waiting.....SORRY

nice.
like i said in my post:

Oh well, more time for reasearch isn't a bad thing!!!
Can't wait for some new news!!!

[Mstoochn]

will your numbers be ready intime for my build? so i have a direction to follow (seeing as the s252 vs 3071 is more or less the same)

minus the w2a (unless i change my mind )
and 3s shell

This post has been edited by Mstoochn: Sep 13, 2009 - 8:11 PM

[6gtfour]

the only thing i wish is that this was an AWD/4wd ST205 in which case you would have done all of my homework for me with proven results.
The cam gears bit threw me off and i assumed you had aftermarket cams installed at some point. still not 100% sure but i gather that you are using stock cams driven by aftermarket cam gears yes?
I was also curious about what the daily driven boost/horsepower limitations of the water to air factory intercooling is. As you are already aware eventually the inlet and outlet pipe diameter will become your horsepower restriction no matter how efficiently it cools the air. I'm also seeing a twin disc (possibly carbon) clutch somewhere in your near future as well (not to be the bearer of bad news lol)

I almost want to DEMAND that this thread become a sticky

I'm sure this is the only thread where the limits a stock ST205 gen 3 engine setup was sensibly discovered in sort of the same way racing engineers would have gone about it.
U cannot imagine how disgusted I am everytime i read about a modded ST205 where the minute the car was delivered to the owner they gutted out every stock part bolted on a different turbo, aftermarket standalone management and injectors, pistons, rods, you name it, and then proceeded to produce less horse power figures than you did. ugh! take the 7th gen celica guy who posted somewhere in this thread he's 300something horsepower with a GT35R turbo HA! *DIES*

Meanwhile the evo guys call our engines crap because they simply turn up the boost and reflash the factory ECU accordingly and clear the 300 ALL WHEEL horse power mark almost with disdain.
I have a really big chip on my shoulder about that. i live on a very tiny/short street in a residential area where there are 6 evo guys who are close friends who continually say that toyota is crap. Their cars are fast as hell using the same approach Jim used. So i traded up and got a used ST205 recently and plan on getting rid of my AE111 4AGE 20v equipped levin soon.
I'm planning to go to certain RIDICULOUS extremes so the car can boast of being an all wheel drive ST205 that retains all the stock parts and also hands them their breakfast. (who's checking the intercooler pump to make sure it's factory right?)
Jim has paved the way so well i wish i could send a thank you card. It's clear now that i need to get an MRII or WRC ct20B to realize enough boost to achieve this which is something i wasn't willing to accept without testing the limits of the ceramic turbine wheel myself.
seriously this thread should be stickied!

[_Jim_]

First I would like to say thank you for all your compliments.

the only thing i wish is that this was an AWD/4wd ST205 in which case you would have done all of my homework for me with proven results.
The cam gears bit threw me off and i assumed you had aftermarket cams installed at some point. still not 100% sure but i gather that you are using stock cams driven by aftermarket cam gears yes?
I was also curious about what the daily driven boost/horsepower limitations of the water to air factory intercooling is. As you are already aware eventually the inlet and outlet pipe diameter will become your horsepower restriction no matter how efficiently it cools the air. I'm also seeing a twin disc (possibly carbon) clutch somewhere in your near future as well (not to be the bearer of bad news lol)

Yes, I am still on bone stock Head with stock cams, running aftermarket Cam gears. I havent even played with the cam gears yet, so there was still a decent amount left in this setup.

As for the Intercooler inlet....I dont know how I feel about that. No matter what size Inlet I run on my intercooler, I will always have to meet the 2" outlet on the compressor. So, I cant see much gains to be had by running a larger Inlet to the W2A IC...as it is only about 4 inches long. So even if the 4" section was "upgraded" to a 3" diameter inlet for those 4", I would still have to neck down to a 2" compressor outlet.

I would say there is less restriction in the stock W2A IC, then running a FMIC with 2.5" piping. Granted the inlet on the ST205 IC is 2 inches...its only 4 inches long. then after that it gets widely opened up into the core, then comes out the 2.75 outlet of the IC. so the only REAL restriction is the inlet....but that is no different size then the turbo outlet...and again, its only 4 inches long. where as a FMIC setup is usually 2.5" piping and about 10 feet of it. Try this, take a straw and blow throw it. See how much force it takes for you to blow throw it. Now, while you are blowing threw the straw, cut the straw with a pair of scissors about 2" from your lips. NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE. This is the same thing that is happening with the W2A IC vs FMIC. The full length staw acts as the FMIC setup, and the shorter straw acts as the stock W2A IC.

But hey, you never know....you may be right, and I may be wrong. I will put some more thought into this, and may even buy one of those cheap W2A IC's on ebay. I can EASILY adapt one of those cores to my new W2A setup....so that would be a fairly cheap and easy way to see if there are in fact any gains or not. I will get back to you on this in the next couple months.

I almost want to DEMAND that this thread become a sticky

I'm sure this is the only thread where the limits a stock ST205 gen 3 engine setup was sensibly discovered in sort of the same way racing engineers would have gone about it.
U cannot imagine how disgusted I am everytime i read about a modded ST205 where the minute the car was delivered to the owner they gutted out every stock part bolted on a different turbo, aftermarket standalone management and injectors, pistons, rods, you name it, and then proceeded to produce less horse power figures than you did. ugh! take the 7th gen celica guy who posted somewhere in this thread he's 300something horsepower with a GT35R turbo HA! *DIES*

I feel the same way...Most people over complicate the ST205 setup, when there is really no need. In the next few months I will be posting 380-400whp numbers STILL on the stock ECU and stock longblock. The only change that will have been made was, would be an aftermarket turbo.

There are 2 other setups that tested the upper limits of the GEN3, and they were done by Hux racing (they were the first, and used stock computer) and ATS racing (they used an aftermarket EMS...so results arent really comparable) Both setups were tested on race gas and on Mr2's. I felt there was enough aggressive intercooling in the Celica to obtain these results on pump gas with water injection (which also added to the aggressive IC I spoke of) and I was set on trying it. As far as I know, I was the first person to make this kind of power on 93pump gas with the stock GEN3 tho....and I had GREAT success.

Meanwhile the evo guys call our engines crap because they simply turn up the boost and reflash the factory ECU accordingly and clear the 300 ALL WHEEL horse power mark almost with disdain.
I have a really big chip on my shoulder about that. i live on a very tiny/short street in a residential area where there are 6 evo guys who are close friends who continually say that toyota is crap. Their cars are fast as hell using the same approach Jim used. So i traded up and got a used ST205 recently and plan on getting rid of my AE111 4AGE 20v equipped levin soon.
I'm planning to go to certain RIDICULOUS extremes so the car can boast of being an all wheel drive ST205 that retains all the stock parts and also hands them their breakfast. (who's checking the intercooler pump to make sure it's factory right?)
Jim has paved the way so well i wish i could send a thank you card. It's clear now that i need to get an MRII or WRC ct20B to realize enough boost to achieve this which is something i wasn't willing to accept without testing the limits of the ceramic turbine wheel myself.
seriously this thread should be stickied!

Dont let the EVO guys call our cars crap. They have all there own issues also. What makes the EVO's seem so much faster then our cars is they REGULARLY run about 10-20psi more then your average 3sgte owner. I have no problem running 20+psi day in and day out....and that REALLY leveled the playing field. Evos can call our cars junk all they want, but if fact they are VERY WELL engineered. Ask an EVO to make 500+whp without modifying the head and see his answer LOLOLOL.

another factor that makes them seem faster is the AWD drivetrain....well the AWD conversion is going ot be more and more common in the Celica as the years go on...and after my research and taking all my measurements....it is a bit easier then one may actually think.

And EVO's arent so fast when I catch them on the highway

[SwissFerdi]

Dont let the EVO guys call our cars crap. They have all there own issues also. What makes the EVO's seem so much faster then our cars is they REGULARLY run about 10-20psi more then your average 3sgte owner. I have no problem running 20+psi day in and day out....and that REALLY leveled the playing field. Evos can call our cars junk all they want, but if fact they are VERY WELL engineered. Ask an EVO to make 500+whp without modifying the head and see his answer LOLOLOL.

I think it also all comes back to the love & enthusiasm one has for their car. I think Evo's are pretty amazing, BUT I'd take a GT-4 over one anyday. Throw some power mods against it and it'll be loads sexier, and possibly just as fast.

[delusionz]

From what I've heard though, In stock form an EVO (even from around the time of my GT4) has 280BHP with only 7PSI, whereas our 3S-GTE is only putting out 250BHP with 14psi

Their 4WD is just as advanced as ours too

Not to mention they have a smaller wheelbase and track and are lighter by about 200kgs (which is 2 fat fu*ks in the back seat)

[6gtfour]

probably 7PSI on a broken turbo. lol.
stock boost in the evo's average from 11 to 16 psi. i think the evo 9 is a bit higher but non of my friends have a 9. the evo 3 seems to be less common than the newer ones so use about 15PSI as your average for stock boost on an evo. the evo 7 also weighs about the same amount as a GTfour. they have active(electronic) differentials. well electronically managed is the better term. so that makes their 4wd system technologically light years ahead of ours. But don't be dismayed. Mechanical grip is just as good and in my opinion even better than the electronic stuff. you just have to have the right components properly set up. With the right suspension and diff settings only tyre grip should be the limiting factor in handling on a GT four.

This post has been edited by 6gtfour: Sep 15, 2009 - 9:10 PM

[SwissFerdi]

Their 4WD is just as advanced as ours too

I was gonna say, isn't the GT-4's AWD system pretty stone-age...no differential, as far as I know? They guy above me ninja'd me though.

[6gtfour]

Oh i forgot to ask earlier Jim and I'm too lazy to check through all 14 pgs again dunno if it was mentioned but what was the ambient (atmospheric) temperature on the day the car was dyno tested? and also out of curiosity what type of engine oil gearbox oil, radiator coolant, intercooler coolant, and brake fluid do you use? also curious if you use the stock radiator cap or upgraded to the 1.3Bar and what diameter wheels you use 16,17 or 18 inch.

[delusionz]

Their 4WD is just as advanced as ours too

I was gonna say, isn't the GT-4's AWD system pretty stone-age...no differential, as far as I know? They guy above me ninja'd me though.

mechanical rear, viscous center, open diff up front.

It's not fair to compare any EVO after 1998 to a GT4.

[6gtfour]

actually it's Torsen rear (torque sensing), open front and i'm not sure what the center differential actually is. my gosh i can't believe i've gotten that rusty lol.

[6gtfour]

It's not fair to compare any EVO after 1998 to a GT4.

Stock for stock yes but that's why we're here.... to level the playing field and personally i intend to have an unfair advantage as often as possible.

[pipes]

It's not fair to compare any EVO after 1998 to a GT4.

Stock for stock yes but that's why we're here.... to level the playing field and personally i intend to have an unfair advantage as often as possible.

if it makes you feel better i will have the same setup jim has in an awd drive setup before the end of the year i plant to produce 350awhp at around 17-18 psi

From what I've heard though, In stock form an EVO (even from around the time of my GT4) has 280BHP with only 7PSI, whereas our 3S-GTE is only putting out 250BHP with 14psi

Their 4WD is just as advanced as ours too

Not to mention they have a smaller wheelbase and track and are lighter by about 200kgs (which is 2 fat fu*ks in the back seat)

and will also tell you as a fact.... evo XIII will not keep up with my car in stock form and i can pull on a IX untill my third gear

[6gtfour]

It's not fair to compare any EVO after 1998 to a GT4.

Stock for stock yes but that's why we're here.... to level the playing field and personally i intend to have an unfair advantage as often as possible.

if it makes you feel better i will have the same setup jim has in an awd drive setup before the end of the year i plant to produce 350awhp at around 17-18 psi

From what I've heard though, In stock form an EVO (even from around the time of my GT4) has 280BHP with only 7PSI, whereas our 3S-GTE is only putting out 250BHP with 14psi

Their 4WD is just as advanced as ours too

Not to mention they have a smaller wheelbase and track and are lighter by about 200kgs (which is 2 fat fu*ks in the back seat)

and will also tell you as a fact.... evo XIII will not keep up with my car in stock form and i can pull on a IX untill my third gear

you are expecting to safely produce around 540 horsepower (flywheel) with 550cc injectors on 93 octane fuel/with WI? at ONLY 18PSI? on the efficiency of the factory turbo's compressor? I'll have to see that first to believe it. But my initial thoughts are NO WAY JOSE. lol