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> 3S-GE ACIS/Beams discussion, Discussion about ACIS, TVIS, VVT-i, etc. applicable to 3S-GE motors
post Jun 10, 2009 - 3:01 AM
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Rusty



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QUOTE
Redtop Specifications

VVT-I = Variable Valve Timing - Intelligent

Intake cam is VVT-I enabled

Aerodynamic volume displacement (cc) = 1998

Piston bore vs stroke (mm×mm) = 86.0×86.0

Compression ratio = 11:1

Rod pin diameter = 22mm

Rod big end bore = 51mm

Rod big end width = 21mm

Rod lendth to center = 138mm

The highest output (ps/rpm) = 200/7,000

Largest torque (kg-m/rpm) = 21.0/6,000

Injector size = 315cc

Cylinder head chamber compression = 33-34cc

Buckets/lifters = 31mm

Intake Valve Diameter: 34.5mm

Exhaust Valve Diameter: 29.5mm





(inside the intake manifold past the TB)




someone has made 240whp (but thats with a blacktop, not a redtop)

thats almost as far as I get with the BEAMS 3S-GE info (there is a repair manual floating around but costs $100, and since I dont have that engine I dont really need it) onto the 3gen, though some info still applies

This post has been edited by Rusty: May 25, 2011 - 3:18 AM


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post Jun 13, 2009 - 2:01 AM
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this from Toyota: The 3rd Generation 3S-GE:

QUOTE
The 3S-GE is an in-line 4 cylinder engine with the cylinders numbered 1-2-3-4 from the front. The cranshaft is supported by 5 bearings inside the crankcase. These bearings are made out of alumium alloy.
The crankcase is integrated with 8 weights for balance. Oil holes are placed inthe centre of the crankshaft to supply oil to the connecting rods, pistons and other components.
The ignition order is 1-3-4-2. The cylinder head is made of of [haha they made a typo] an aluminum alloy, with a cross flow type intake and exhaust layout with a pent roof type combustion chambers. The spark plugs are located in the centre of the combustion chamber.
The intake manifold has 4 independent long ports and utilises the intertial supercharging effect to improve engine tourque at low and mudium speeds.
Both the intake and the exhaust camshafts are driven by a single timing belt. The cam journal is supported at 5 places between the valve lifters of each cylinder and on the front end of the cylinder head. Lubrication of the cam journal and cams is accomplished by oil being supplied through the oil port in the centre of the camshaft.
Adjusting of the valve clearance is done by means of an inner shim type system, in which valves adjusting shims are located below the valve lifters. To replace the shims, the camshafts must be be removed.
Pistons are made of high temperature - resistant aluminum alloy, and a depression is built into the piston head to prevent interface with the valves.
Piston pins are the full-floating type, with the pins fastened to neither the piston boss nor the connecting rod. Instead, snap rings are fitted on both end of the pins, preventing the pins from falling out.
The No.1 compression ring is made of stainless steel and the No.2 compression ring is made of cast iron. The oil ring is made out of stainless steel. The outer diameter of each piston ring is slightly larger than the diameter of the piston and the flexibility of the rings allow the to hug the cylinder walls when they are mounted to the piston. Compression rings No.1 and No.2 work to prevent gas leakage from the cylinder and the oil ring works to scrape oil off the cylinder walls to prevent it from entering the combustion chambers.
The cast iron cylinder block has 4 cylinders which are approximattly twice the length of the piston stroke. The top of each cylinder is closed off by the cylinder head and the lower end of the cylinders become the crankcase, in which the cranksaft is installed. In addition, the cylinder contains a wet jacket, through which coolant is pumped to cool the cylinders.
The No.1 and No.2 oil pans are bolted onto the bottom of the cylinder block. The No.1 oil pan is made of alumimum alloy. The No.2 is an oil reservoir made of pressed steel. The dividing plate also prevents the oil from shifting away from the oil pump suction pipe when the vehicle is stopped suddenly.



Maintance
Oil change: takes 4.5L W/ oil filter change or 5.2L from Dry fill

Compression 1,324 KPA (192psi +) Minimum 1,079KPA (156psi)


more later


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post Jul 22, 2009 - 4:37 PM
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BonzaiCelica



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hey Rusty, you said that the 3rd gen 3sge has more tuning capabilities than the 4th gen.

about the cams. i was looking at the 294 cam grind that presure2 did to his 5sfe. What upgradable cams are their for the 4th gen 3sge beams?


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post Jul 22, 2009 - 11:51 PM
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azian_advanced



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not sure if there are any upgradeable camshafts for the beams 3sge but you can always have them sent out for a weld & regrind if you're out of options.


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post Jul 23, 2009 - 1:49 AM
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Rusty



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what you not happy with the BEAMS power?biggrin.gif:D
there are a few, depends if you want the vvti operative or not?

the 294 cams your talking about...
QUOTE (Celicatech)
The 294 grind by webcams is just a reference number they use, not the actual duration. The actual duration at 0.050" is 218 degrees, so they are a really mild cam.


I dont know about regrinds due to the vvti system, but something you can look into.

anyway if you do go inoperative vvti, you might want to look at your head, the blacktop BEAMS has VVT-i oil control hole, in the head for the vvti, I'm not sure if the redtop has it or not, but apperenlty you have to bung it up.
from the TRD website http://www.trdparts.jp/english/parts_engine-3s-ge.html


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post Jul 23, 2009 - 2:03 AM
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Umm the vvt-i only applies to the intake manifold on the 3sge beams redtop. if you change cams on the altezza's 3sge beams engine. that will affect the vvti becuase blacktop beams has vvt-i on intake and exhaust cams.

but since there is not much mods for the redtop beams, grinding cams or getting performance ones is something i was thinking about.


This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Aug 9, 2009 - 6:46 PM


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post Jul 23, 2009 - 6:40 PM
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Umm the vvt-i only applies to the intake manifold on the 3sge beams redtop. if you change cams on the altezza's 3sge beams engine. that will affect the vvti becuase blacktop beams has vvt-i on intake and exhaust cams.

what are you on about?

yea those where the cams I was on about, but I cant find a website for them.


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post Jul 24, 2009 - 1:21 AM
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that the cams do not effect the vvt-i on the beams redtop becuase the vvt-i is on the intake manifold.

those are customs parts i tried searching gbooth on bigpond.net.au but i couldnt find him. Ill just post something on the website to see if i can get some prices and hp/ torque numbers with those mods that are listed on that page.

QUOTE (Rusty @ Jul 23, 2009 - 1:49 AM) *
what you not happy with the BEAMS power?biggrin.gif:D


No im happy with the power of the beams, especially considering that im coming from a slow 7afe engine, so it will be a nice upgrade . I just want the most power out i can get out of the engine! And if all works out with me finding a engine clip in 2 years from now, i really want to race an integra type-r on the track and quarter mile biggrin.gif

im looking for about 80 whp gain with beams swap....

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Sep 9, 2013 - 1:17 AM


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post Aug 13, 2009 - 2:37 PM
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QUOTE
3.gen 3SGE M/T
In: 252deg, 9.8mm lift (timing 7/65)
Ex: 240deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 53/7)

3.gen 3SGTE
In: 240deg, 8.7mm lift (timing 7/53)
Ex: 236deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 50/6)


Why?


QUOTE
Compression
2. gen 3SGTE
8.8:1

3.gen 3SGTE M/T
8.5:1


Why?


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GT2860RS turbine, TiAL mvr44, JE 86.5φ piston, Clutchmasters FX400, APEX P-FC
269awhp / 273ft-lbs
post Aug 13, 2009 - 2:49 PM
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QUOTE (Rusty @ Jun 9, 2009 - 3:01 AM) *
Cyclinder Head
QUOTE
Gen3
The cylinder head has the valve clearance shims under the bucket.
Gen4
The cylinder head is Gen 3 type but has variable cam timing on the inlet only. The cam cover is red & has the word “beams” in silver script.



thats not true, the gen 4 is not a gen4 type with variable cam timing, its a completely different head, nothing between them is compatible, the cam angle is different, the conbustion chamber is completely different , the valves in the beams are bigger as are the buckets. I have one sitting here in bits if an illustration is needed.

There are tuning options for the redtop, i see the name gbooth mentioned, he is the guy to talk to, you can get hold of him through the beams redtop forum and he will supply you with anything you need to tune a redtop or blacktop beams. Cams are not compatible between the red and blacktop though. Its well worth retaining the vvti when tuning it aswell. Theres a 240whp redtop in a gen 5 celica that mr booth built, peak power is at 8600rpm biggrin.gif . Theres a lot to be gained from just an aftermarket ecu aswell, my freinds mr2 is putting out 183bhp@7000rpm at the wheels with just intake + decat and ecu.
post Aug 15, 2009 - 8:18 AM
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Found this - not sure if its already been found - but just thought I'd share.

Not sure how much different in extra HP if any from the OEM - but it looks nic. Price is expensive too.

Aftermarket Header

Fujitsubo 3SGE Beams Header
post Aug 15, 2009 - 8:33 AM
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Edophus

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QUOTE (2bcelica @ Aug 15, 2009 - 9:18 AM) *
Found this - not sure if its already been found - but just thought I'd share.

Not sure how much different in extra HP if any from the OEM - but it looks nic. Price is expensive too.

Aftermarket Header

Fujitsubo 3SGE Beams Header



sorry 2bcelica but thats for the pre beams ss3, you can tell because the flange where it meets the head is very different, as the port spacing and shape is tottally different, as is the bolt pattern, its a real pita to find a manifold for the beams, i think the only one is the phoenix power unless you go custom. That fujitsubo manifold i think would fit any gen 3 3s-ge smile.gif
post Aug 15, 2009 - 8:38 AM
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2bcelica



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QUOTE (Edophus @ Aug 15, 2009 - 2:33 PM) *
QUOTE (2bcelica @ Aug 15, 2009 - 9:18 AM) *
Found this - not sure if its already been found - but just thought I'd share.

Not sure how much different in extra HP if any from the OEM - but it looks nic. Price is expensive too.

Aftermarket Header

Fujitsubo 3SGE Beams Header



sorry 2bcelica but thats for the pre beams ss3, you can tell because the flange where it meets the head is very different, as the port spacing and shape is tottally different, as is the bolt pattern, its a real pita to find a manifold for the beams, i think the only one is the phoenix power unless you go custom. That fujitsubo manifold i think would fit any gen 3 3s-ge smile.gif



darn it -
post Aug 16, 2009 - 2:39 AM
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Rusty



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QUOTE
thats not true, the gen 4 is not a gen4 type with variable cam timing, its a completely different head, nothing between them is compatible, the cam angle is different, the conbustion chamber is completely different , the valves in the beams are bigger as are the buckets. I have one sitting here in bits if an illustration is needed.

There are tuning options for the redtop, i see the name gbooth mentioned, he is the guy to talk to, you can get hold of him through the beams redtop forum and he will supply you with anything you need to tune a redtop or blacktop beams. Cams are not compatible between the red and blacktop though. Its well worth retaining the vvti when tuning it aswell. Theres a 240whp redtop in a gen 5 celica that mr booth built, peak power is at 8600rpm biggrin.gif . Theres a lot to be gained from just an aftermarket ecu aswell, my freinds mr2 is putting out 183bhp@7000rpm at the wheels with just intake + decat and ecu.


just wondering if you ment "thats not true, the gen 4 is not a gen3 type with variable cam timing"
I know what your saying, (its just not a gen 3 head painted red) yes it is differnet, but I think what they were simply trying to say was its similar to the 3gen but close up there are quite a few difference as you point out.

by all means post up pics really need more info on here, as there isn't too much floating around, (I can hopfully find the 3gen sizes etc to compare) one thing I really would like to know are the camshaft sizes (duration and lift)
and if you have any more info on the redtop beams ive missed please post it up smile.gif


delusionz im not to sure, NA require it as this is how they make their power (which is why a 3gen can run up to +300deg cams)


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post Aug 16, 2009 - 3:50 AM
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Wonder if the GE would make a better head to swap to the GTE engine... and also give some low end torque back to the GE engine?

Or maybe just the intake camshafts?

This post has been edited by delusionz: Aug 16, 2009 - 3:51 AM


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GT2860RS turbine, TiAL mvr44, JE 86.5φ piston, Clutchmasters FX400, APEX P-FC
269awhp / 273ft-lbs
post Aug 16, 2009 - 4:38 AM
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QUOTE (delusionz @ Aug 16, 2009 - 2:50 AM) *
Wonder if the GE would make a better head to swap to the GTE engine... and also give some low end torque back to the GE engine?

Or maybe just the intake camshafts?



better off spending your money on your head, cams bigger valves etc.


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post Aug 16, 2009 - 6:13 AM
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Edophus

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QUOTE (Rusty @ Aug 16, 2009 - 3:39 AM) *
just wondering if you ment "thats not true, the gen 4 is not a gen3 type with variable cam timing"
I know what your saying, (its just not a gen 3 head painted red) yes it is differnet, but I think what they were simply trying to say was its similar to the 3gen but close up there are quite a few difference as you point out.

by all means post up pics really need more info on here, as there isn't too much floating around, (I can hopfully find the 3gen sizes etc to compare) one thing I really would like to know are the camshaft sizes (duration and lift)
and if you have any more info on the redtop beams ive missed please post it up smile.gif


delusionz im not to sure, NA require it as this is how they make their power (which is why a 3gen can run up to +300deg cams)


yeah sorry i wasnt having a go at anyone, i'm really not like that its hard sometimes to not sound like that on a forum, i spend a lot of time correcting information about the beams laugh.gif There is of course many similarities between the gen3/4 as in the bucket setup etc

The head i have here is actually from a blacktop beams, but they are the same casting, the only difference being the blacktop has some extra machining done in a couple of spots one of which is the exhaust side vvti solenoid, and the other difference is the machining on the last cam journal on the intake side, both of which is just left undrilled on the redtop, maybe if someone has a gen 3 head we can compare the differences. The only other head i have here is a gen 2 3s-gte which maybe someone is interested in comparing, if so let me know.

Here is a link to some of the tuning parts available, those are the best cams you can get for the redtop, throw out any idea's of using cams similar to those used in the gen3 or other 3s engines as the vvti makes for a very different animal, and you cant use blacktop cams.
http://www.beams-redtop.com/redmods.htm

Gen 4 3S-GE (Redtop) :
Power - 200ps (197bhp) @ 7000rpm
Torque - 21kg-m (152ft.lb) @ 6000rpm
compression ratio - 11:1
Cam duration (IN/EX) - 256°/244° ( timing is -2~43/78~33 thats the vvti range)
Cam lift (IN/EX) - 10.5mm/9.2mm (53/11)
Valve diameter (IN/EX) - 34.5mm/29.5mm
Throttle body diameter - 65mm
Injector size - 340cc (going by the book, flow testing puts them at 315cc)
Notes - VVTI

top of the head - i think overall it is a lot narrower because of the valve angle.


Intake side.


Exhaust side.


Underside.


another shot of the underside, the combustion chambers are about 20cc smaller than those of the previous gens


if you want more pics let me know, the rest of the head is sitting in a box.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 16, 2009 - 6:35 PM
post Aug 16, 2009 - 7:06 PM
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Rusty



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QUOTE
yeah sorry i wasnt having a go at anyone, i'm really not like that its hard sometimes to not sound like that on a forum, i spend a lot of time correcting information about the beams laugh.gif There is of course many similarities between the gen3/4 as in the bucket setup etc

nah your alright, I know what you mean when you say stuff, the way people interpret what peple say can be different on a forum.

QUOTE
Gen 4 3S-GE (Redtop) :
Power - 200ps (197bhp) @ 7000rpm
Torque - 21kg-m (152ft.lb) @ 6000rpm
compression ratio - 11:1
Cam duration (IN/EX) - 256°/244°
Cam lift (IN/EX) - 10.5mm/9.2mm
Valve diameter (IN/EX) - 34.5mm/29.5mm
Throttle body diameter - 65mm
Injector size - 340cc (going by the book, flow testing puts them at 315cc)
Notes - VVTI

awesome thanks for the specs I was missing, I'll add those to previous info so we dont confuse anyone.

QUOTE
3.gen 3SGE M/T
In: 252deg, 9.8mm lift (timing 7/65)
Ex: 240deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 53/7)
compression 10.3:1
4.gen 3SGE M/T
In: 256deg, 10.5mm lift
Ex: 244deg, 9.2mm lift
compression 11:1

only a slight increase between them, but that would explain the 19BHP difference



http://www.trdparts.jp/english/parts_engine-3s-ge.html
that one off hole (oil hole) inbetween cylinder 1 & 2 is for controling vvti right on the blacktop? same on the redtop or is it that extra machinering your talking about?



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post Aug 17, 2009 - 5:18 AM
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Edophus

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QUOTE (Rusty @ Aug 16, 2009 - 8:06 PM) *
that one off hole (oil hole) inbetween cylinder 1 & 2 is for controling vvti right on the blacktop? same on the redtop or is it that extra machinering your talking about?


thats there on both, i assume on the blacktop it just feeds both solenoids, whilst on the redtop just feeds the one. The extra machining i'll highlight on those pics at some point but busy at work right now!
post Aug 18, 2009 - 2:14 AM
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Rusty



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yea i thought it'll be the same. right onto the tuff question how many degrees does it advance & retard(on blacktop)?


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