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> 3S-GE ACIS/Beams discussion, Discussion about ACIS, TVIS, VVT-i, etc. applicable to 3S-GE motors
post Dec 10, 2010 - 1:08 PM
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eazy2001x

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For those of you who are running ACIS you may want to try a change over from 5200 to 4800, i lowered my 1/4 mile times by doing so in a MR2. I was running a turbo transmission so the engine performed different from you S54 guys but it deff made a difference. My best times at 3000 lbs was a 14.53 logged in my MR2. you also may want to try connecting a VAFC to the ACIS system to control it. It makes things fun. you can leave the ACIS in open for a window of time rather than just open and close you can really customize it. example. if you use a 4800 switch over point and you are on the track. you switch from 2nd to 3rd and drop to 4600 and have to wait a second for it to open at 4800 you lose time. with the VAFC you leave open for a little bit so that you dont have to wait for it to pop open and take advantage of the higher RPMS. also if you notice.. the stock ECU is tuned for a change over point of 5200 so even though you set to anything besides that. at 5200 the ecu will make adjustments to fuel and timing based on its switch over point of 5200. I also have a VAFC jumper harness for sale if anyone wants to play around.

one of my old threads.. enjoy..

Project 5S-GE V-AFC Fun today (Feels Good!)
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=200927
post Jan 18, 2011 - 11:07 PM
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BonzaiCelica



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QUOTE (Edophus @ Sep 27, 2010 - 7:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Rusty @ Sep 26, 2010 - 7:01 AM) *
can I ask what is wrong with the Factory extractors? Because your wanting to spend about US$850 for 1.1KW? The factory extractor type manifolds fitted the 3S-GE and BEAMS 3S-GE are very good. Toyota put some effort into the design and flow of these.

I think your better off putting your money towards your BEAMS engine.


rusty is right, there isnt a lot wrong with the stock extractors, the dimensions may be quite tight but they are fine for a near stock cam, the problem is and this is typical toyota the ingredients are right, the execution not so, the welds tend to be tack welds on the outside and welded on the inside, if you reweld the manifold so the welds are on the outside of the pipe, take a dremel and grind out the garbage on the inside of the pipe, so far i've found the manifolds to be really sloppy here, the design is fundementally fine, but the execution is poor. This isnt a power adder as such but will free up the engine at high revs, we found this on the beams and its also true of the newer 2zz engines where usually a ported stock manifold is better than the aftermarket ones.

To make it complicated biggrin.gif It is worth leaving a step though at the bottom of the manifold floor where the manifold meets the head, you dont want it exact you want the pipe to be slightly bigger at the floor so there is a step down leaving the head, this helps to break up reversion pulses and does no harm to the exhaust flow.


what do you mean by the stuff I highlighted in Red. Also what type of synthetic oil does the 3S-GE Beams Redtop use??? I just read that the 1zz-fe which has dual vvt-i uses 5W-30 and synthetic oil changes should be done every 6,000 miles??

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Jan 18, 2011 - 11:14 PM


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post Jan 19, 2011 - 12:59 AM
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Rusty



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QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Jan 19, 2011 - 5:07 PM) *
I just read that the 1zz-fe which has dual vvt-i uses 5W-30 and synthetic oil changes should be done every 6,000 miles??

where did you read that? because they only have VVT-i on the inlet cam. Yup thats pretty normal on the oil change


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post Jan 19, 2011 - 1:18 AM
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QUOTE (Rusty @ Jan 19, 2011 - 12:59 AM) *
QUOTE (BonzaiCelica @ Jan 19, 2011 - 5:07 PM) *
I just read that the 1zz-fe which has dual vvt-i uses 5W-30 and synthetic oil changes should be done every 6,000 miles??

where did you read that? because they only have VVT-i on the inlet cam. Yup thats pretty normal on the oil change


oh I just thought it had dual vvt-i like the blacktop 3S-GE from the altezza nvm I didnt read it I assumed it. So the 1zz-fe technology is the same as the Redtop Beams right.


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post Feb 3, 2011 - 2:18 AM
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I read this awhile ago, but cant remember where I found it, thought I should add it anyway...


QUOTE
In reality, Toyota didn't delete the TVIS system for the 3rd Generation 3SGE. They rather changed the way it works so that it removes the restriction that the TVIS butterflies had by being at the entry point of the intake ports (they were restrictive even when fully opened).
For the 3rd generation, they used variable plenum volume. In other words, they created a secondary set of runners connected to a secondary plenum, which allowed for more air volume at lower RPM. At 5250, the valves close (much in the same way they opened with TVIS) and the air only travels through the primary plenum and runners, thus increasing air speed and creating more power. There are some pictures out there about how the system works. For what is worth, I think that both systems are just as effective for what they were created. The change in sound and pull from the 3rd Gen system is very noticeable (almost like an S2000).


Opps forgot to add my info on custom 3sge manifold and ACIS plus turbo, will try add that this weekend.


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post Jun 5, 2011 - 10:57 PM
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I'm having a hard time believing delusionz. To my understanding, the 4th gen 3SGE specs are as follows

Horsepower: 197hp @ 7000rpm
Torque: 152 lb-ft @ 6000rpm
Redline: 7250rpm
Rev Limiter : 7450rpm


now what I'm really after is the redline and the rev limiter. Are those numbers correct?

Here is prove no, look at what doggy said. I know he knows for a fact since he's owned both a 3rd gen and 4th gen 3SGE http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...781&hl=3sge

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Oct 12, 2012 - 6:58 PM


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post Jun 6, 2011 - 1:42 AM
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Rusty



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from what I read from that
3 gen 3S-GE - limiter 7500rpm
Beams 3S-GE - limiter is 7450rpm
and redline starts at 7,000rpm, and max advised rpm is 7,200rpm for both of these 3S-GE's


and also pointing out thats 197bhp not whp or flywheel hp


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post Jun 6, 2011 - 1:57 AM
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QUOTE (Rusty @ Jun 6, 2011 - 1:42 AM) *
from what I read from that
3 gen 3S-GE - limiter 7500rpm
Beams 3S-GE - limiter is 7450rpm
and redline starts at 7,000rpm, and max advised rpm is 7,200rpm for both of these 3S-GE's


and also pointing out thats 197bhp not whp or flywheel hp


haha yes rusty I already understand how car company's state the hp, you don't have to keep on reminding me.

see I knew I was right.

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Jun 6, 2011 - 1:58 AM


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post Jul 2, 2011 - 3:20 AM
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Rusty



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After my brother getting a 2ZZ-GE powered corolla thingy, and seeing the results on some forums. made me re think about porting our manifolds


here is a 2zz exhaust manifold. This result was 3kw atw gain on a standard exhaust (same dyno, same day)
after --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- before




Seen below is a stock redtop 3sge exhaust manifold. Cant find any pictures of a 3rd gen 3sge, but I'd assume would be the same.




So I'm on the hunt for some extractors so I can have a play smile.gif


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post Jul 2, 2011 - 4:09 AM
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delusionz



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QUOTE (Rusty @ Jun 6, 2011 - 6:42 PM) *
from what I read from that
3 gen 3S-GE - limiter 7500rpm
Beams 3S-GE - limiter is 7450rpm
and redline starts at 7,000rpm, and max advised rpm is 7,200rpm for both of these 3S-GE's


and also pointing out thats 197bhp not whp or flywheel hp


Try bouncing off the limiter then, any gear just foot flat to the floor nananananananana and tell me u make it to 7500.... No 3rd or 4th gen 3S-G* I've ever driven has revved that high, they all cut out at 7200 which is the end of the small red line and the start of the big red line on the tachometer.


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Mike W
1996 Toyota Celica ST205 GT-FOUR
GT2860RS turbine, TiAL mvr44, JE 86.5φ piston, Clutchmasters FX400, APEX P-FC
269awhp / 273ft-lbs
post Jul 2, 2011 - 4:16 AM
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delusionz



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Btw good idea on the port work, however

smooth isnt best, rough is best. like the dimples on a golf ball, it carries further with dimples. this is wat im told anyways

match up the head to the gasket and the gasket to the headers, then rough it up after

also, #1 exhaust port is wider than the rest, its to compensate for the sharp exit angle as its hidden behind the alternator.. this is the case on 3sgte anyways


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Mike W
1996 Toyota Celica ST205 GT-FOUR
GT2860RS turbine, TiAL mvr44, JE 86.5φ piston, Clutchmasters FX400, APEX P-FC
269awhp / 273ft-lbs
post Jul 2, 2011 - 4:46 AM
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BonzaiCelica



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on the 2zzge was the stock exhaust manifold and downpipe ported. I only have stock exhaust manifold and shop made downpipe. Yes its said to be that the beams 4th gen 3sge exhaust header is superb in its flow characteristics and design. My guess would be grabbing a dremel tool and porting that by hand what else?? hmm would it be worth doing without a before dyno and after dyno. Ugh taking out the alternator and slim radiator fan just to remove the header what a pain....

But if stock exhaust is welded on inside of manifold then we can't port it by hand with a dremel tool right??? you said 3kw at the wheels, hmm then that $850 spend on stainless steel exhaust header and downpipe wouldn't only gain 1.1kw like you said before Rusty.

still don't believe 4th gen can rev that high huh delusionz? don't worry I'll post a video up soon in my thread. I won't make it too 7,500 rpm I'll make it to 7,450 rpm biggrin.gif which is the limiter/fuel cut....

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Jul 2, 2011 - 4:53 AM


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post Jul 2, 2011 - 4:49 AM
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BonzaiCelica



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QUOTE (Edophus @ Sep 27, 2010 - 7:02 PM) *
QUOTE (Rusty @ Sep 26, 2010 - 7:01 AM) *
can I ask what is wrong with the Factory extractors? Because your wanting to spend about US$850 for 1.1KW? The factory extractor type manifolds fitted the 3S-GE and BEAMS 3S-GE are very good. Toyota put some effort into the design and flow of these.

I think your better off putting your money towards your BEAMS engine.


rusty is right, there isnt a lot wrong with the stock extractors, the dimensions may be quite tight but they are fine for a near stock cam, the problem is and this is typical toyota the ingredients are right, the execution not so, the welds tend to be tack welds on the outside and welded on the inside, if you reweld the manifold so the welds are on the outside of the pipe, take a dremel and grind out the garbage on the inside of the pipe, so far i've found the manifolds to be really sloppy here, the design is fundementally fine, but the execution is poor. This isnt a power adder as such but will free up the engine at high revs, we found this on the beams and its also true of the newer 2zz engines where usually a ported stock manifold is better than the aftermarket ones.

To make it complicated biggrin.gif It is worth leaving a step though at the bottom of the manifold floor where the manifold meets the head, you dont want it exact you want the pipe to be slightly bigger at the floor so there is a step down leaving the head, this helps to break up reversion pulses and does no harm to the exhaust flow.


as said by edophus. What does he mean in his last paragraph???

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Jul 2, 2011 - 4:54 AM


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post Jul 2, 2011 - 5:29 AM
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delusionz



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step down, means the pipe is bigger than the port on the flange, makes sense, most custom manifolds are done this way by just welding the pipe over the top, mine was even done with flare pieces right on the flange and tapper down to the ID of the normal steampipe pieces


--------------------
Mike W
1996 Toyota Celica ST205 GT-FOUR
GT2860RS turbine, TiAL mvr44, JE 86.5φ piston, Clutchmasters FX400, APEX P-FC
269awhp / 273ft-lbs
post Jul 3, 2011 - 2:30 AM
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QUOTE
smooth isnt best, rough is best. like the dimples on a golf ball, it carries further with dimples. this is wat im told anyways


I think that's just on the intake side, the exhaust side would just run smooth from the carbon.


QUOTE
But if stock exhaust is welded on inside of manifold then we can't port it by hand with a dremel tool right??? you said 3kw at the wheels, hmm then that $850 spend on stainless steel exhaust header and downpipe wouldn't only gain 1.1kw like you said before Rusty.


It's welded inside and out, plus our cars have a brace to the block so less chance of cracking. Yeah just use a die grinder or something.
The 3kw atw gain was from the 2zz. The Fujitsubo 3S-GE extrators stated a power figure of 135kw and stated factory is 133.39kw. Cant remember how I got the 1.1kw, I may have used my dyno figures, not sure sorry.
Now in todays exchange rate it sells for $1,273.51 USD, now compare that to $20 USD for a new exhaust gasket and porting the manifold yourself for the same power.


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post Oct 31, 2011 - 3:09 PM
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Yay - glad I found this thread! W00t!

Tons of information. Thanks guys!


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post Dec 14, 2011 - 11:08 AM
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richee3



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Here are three articles concerning VVT-i- how it works, the different components, diagnosing issues, etc. Very useful information in these articles for anyone with VVT-i.

VVT-i Article- April 2010
VVT-i Article- May 2010
VVT-i Article- June 2010


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"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others labored hard for." -Socrates. Even Socrates told us to use the search button!

Mine- 1997 Supra- TT 6 speed, BPU. 460 whp.
Hers- 1998 Celica GT-
BEAMS Swapped.
Ours- 2016 4Runner Trail Edition.
post Jan 24, 2012 - 5:47 PM
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I just learned a bit of information on the BEAMS. I sold my spare Redtop injectors to puretone a few weeks back for a project he's got going. He had them tested and here are the results.

QUOTE
Just got a quartet of injectors cleaned & spec'd. I got these off of Richee3, I'll need him to chime in on age/miles of these injectors.

After cleaning & testing they flowed 399.9cc's (400cc for all intents & purposes) and were all within less than 1% of each other.
This was done on an Aussie ASNU test bench at 3 bar pressure.

Anyone wanna chime in on wtf is going on here?


We previously thought the Redtop injectors were 340 cc. That's a pretty big difference.


--------------------
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others labored hard for." -Socrates. Even Socrates told us to use the search button!

Mine- 1997 Supra- TT 6 speed, BPU. 460 whp.
Hers- 1998 Celica GT-
BEAMS Swapped.
Ours- 2016 4Runner Trail Edition.
post Jan 24, 2012 - 6:32 PM
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QUOTE (richee3 @ Jan 24, 2012 - 6:47 PM) *
I just learned a bit of information on the BEAMS. I sold my spare Redtop injectors to puretone a few weeks back for a project he's got going. He had them tested and here are the results.

QUOTE
Just got a quartet of injectors cleaned & spec'd. I got these off of Richee3, I'll need him to chime in on age/miles of these injectors.

After cleaning & testing they flowed 399.9cc's (400cc for all intents & purposes) and were all within less than 1% of each other.
This was done on an Aussie ASNU test bench at 3 bar pressure.

Anyone wanna chime in on wtf is going on here?


We previously thought the Redtop injectors were 340 cc. That's a pretty big difference.


Dan, did you send him the Redtop injectors? or the greytop injectors?
My thought is that you know the previous owner of your second redtop was into modding the car...... maybe that was one of the upgrades?? Maybe those aren't STOCK injectors..... just a thought. greytop injectors I wouldn't have questioned, but the second redtop is suspect....


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post Jan 24, 2012 - 6:53 PM
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richee3



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I did consider that. Greytop injectors should be 315 cc, Redtop injectors should be 340. I'm talking to him to find out if he thinks they've ever had any work. They didn't look to me like they've ever been taken off of the Redtop but you never know.


--------------------
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others labored hard for." -Socrates. Even Socrates told us to use the search button!

Mine- 1997 Supra- TT 6 speed, BPU. 460 whp.
Hers- 1998 Celica GT-
BEAMS Swapped.
Ours- 2016 4Runner Trail Edition.

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