ct20b on 2nd gen, whos running this set-up? Options

[95st-celica]

i will be picking up a ct20b for my 2nd gen this weekend, and was curious as to see who else was running the same set-up, as well as what other supporting mods you have, and what kind of numbers you were getting out of it as well.

I think this will really open up and answer a lot of questions about the limits of a basically stock 2nd gen, (for us 2nd gen guys) compared to the stock 3rd gen, with such a simple upgrade as a 20b.

From what i have researched, 290-320WHP should be attainable with simple mods to the 2nd gen.

Myself and lagos are going to see what we can do with each of our set-ups, and post back what we came up with.

I really do think that 300WHP is VERY realistic for the 2nd gen with the ct20b, if not more.

[Mstoochn]

I'd say it would be close, you would be running 18+ psi, but yea, 300whp is very realistic

[_Jim_]

The turbos isnt really the problem with the GEN2 3sgtes, its the injectors. The CT20B is IMO the best turbo for the GEN2 on the stock ECU and injectors. Reasoning being is that the CT20B will max out your stock 440cc injectors with less then 20psi of boost. I ran the CT20B on my GEN2 for a few months before I upgraded to a full GEN3 swap, and it certainly makes a noticeable difference. Without the addition of water/methanol injection, and without the addition of an upgraded FPR...Be careful. Trying to push your setup to the 300whp mark, you will be pushing your injectors to the bitter edge of there duty cycle, which can be VERY dangerous. Just keep an eye on your AFR's while on the dyno, and stay within the 11.5 "safe zone" and you will be very successful at making more power.

Now, if you upgrade to a CT20B, upgrade the stock FPR, adjustable cam gears, add in a water/methanol injection kit....and throw in a piggypack for SMALL/FINE tuning/corrections, then you have the ability to match the power that a GEN3 makes on the stock CT20B no questions asked. If you are looking for comparison numbers, my GEN3 made 285whp at 16 psi, and 315whp at 18psi all on the stock GEN3. I wish I would have dynoed my GEN2 setup with the CT20B, bad sadly never happened. I am looking forward to your results.

[lagos]

The turbos isnt really the problem with the GEN2 3sgtes, its the injectors. The CT20B is IMO the best turbo for the GEN2 on the stock ECU and injectors. Reasoning being is that the CT20B will max out your stock 440cc injectors with less then 20psi of boost. I ran the CT20B on my GEN2 for a few months before I upgraded to a full GEN3 swap, and it certainly makes a noticeable difference. Without the addition of water/methanol injection, and without the addition of an upgraded FPR...Be careful. Trying to push your setup to the 300whp mark, you will be pushing your injectors to the bitter edge of there duty cycle, which can be VERY dangerous. Just keep an eye on your AFR's while on the dyno, and stay within the 11.5 "safe zone" and you will be very successful at making more power.

Now, if you upgrade to a CT20B, upgrade the stock FPR, adjustable cam gears, add in a water/methanol injection kit....and throw in a piggypack for SMALL/FINE tuning/corrections, then you have the ability to match the power that a GEN3 makes on the stock CT20B no questions asked. If you are looking for comparison numbers, my GEN3 made 285whp at 16 psi, and 315whp at 18psi all on the stock GEN3. I wish I would have dynoed my GEN2 setup with the CT20B, bad sadly never happened. I am looking forward to your results.

No Jim. We are going to be pushing MY car with this turbo.

[mk7celica]

I will be going to the dyno after the new year some time. I have a 2nd gen with a ct20 with a blitz ecu and ats fpr, and meth /water injection. I have been running 18psi with no problems and a good afr reading. I cant wait to see what I am working with. Injectors and rail will be one of the next mods for the new year. With the upgraded fpr and meth kit I am not sure where I will run out of fuel, at 18lbs now I will try to run more maybe 20lbs to see what happens.

[lagos]

I will be going to the dyno after the new year some time. I have a 2nd gen with a ct20 with a blitz ecu and ats fpr, and meth /water injection. I have been running 18psi with no problems and a good afr reading. I cant wait to see what I am working with. Injectors and rail will be one of the next mods for the new year. With the upgraded fpr and meth kit I am not sure where I will run out of fuel, at 18lbs now I will try to run more maybe 20lbs to see what happens.

Didn't you blow your knock sensor a few times?

[mk7celica]

No oem ecu blew and knock sensor blew but that was all before the injection kit. The ats sensor kit was faulty in that the plug kept falling off the sensor. I just decided to go with a oem sensor from toyota. Havent had a isuue since except my alternator is corroded and going out.

[_Jim_]

SWEET ART, looking forward to the results! What fuel mods have you done? What size nozzle will you be running in your water injection system? what mixture will you will be running? You will be VERY happy with the results, as the CT20B in itself is a big upgrade over the CT26, ESPECIALLY above 14psi.

[95st-celica]

I have been researching this A LOT lately and im really interested to see what we can do with the 20b...a lot of guys over on mr2oc are getting GREAT numbers with stock 2nd gens and the 20b upgrade, with really crappy intercooling. i think that with the mods both me and lagos have, and the larger intercoolers, we should be able to put up equal numbers, if not better. Hopefully we will have some results posted up with in the next week or so. This will be a great mod for the 2nd gen guys to get a little more power out of their car with out breaking the bank.

[_Jim_]

I have been researching this A LOT lately and im really interested to see what we can do with the 20b...a lot of guys over on mr2oc are getting GREAT numbers with stock 2nd gens and the 20b upgrade, with really crappy intercooling. i think that with the mods both me and lagos have, and the larger intercoolers, we should be able to put up equal numbers, if not better. Hopefully we will have some results posted up with in the next week or so. This will be a great mod for the 2nd gen guys to get a little more power out of their car with out breaking the bank.

...So both of you guys have 20B's and will be trying different "variables" to see what pulls the best results?

As for power, you wont see any impressive numbers over 300whp unless you plan to start supplementing in some Meth, or upgrading to FPR. Now Arts car is setup for this, as he already has the water/meth injection kit and SAFC. So he should see very nice gains with the CT20B.

As I am sure you have followed, like most of us here. Califcarm over on Mr2oc really opened up the eyes to fellow members to the benefits of meth injection and "high" boost. Which can be used on all motors whether being 4agze, GEN2 3sgte, GEN3 3sgte, 5sfte, 7afte, etc. You can push any factory fuel limits above that of the factory limits. Best of luck to both of you.

[95st-celica]

bascially i am buying the 20b off of stevenson tomorrow, and both art and i have been planing on doing a turbo upgrade for a while now. I have been looking for a 20b at a reasonable price for quite some time now, but everything i found was in australia and way over priced.

I am picking up the turbo, and putting it on art's car. ONLY because he has an exhaust, and a meth kit already installed. i have the same exact mods as him, but they are in boxes in my room (way to cold out to be installing **** like this with no garage) once it warms up a little bit then i will put everyhting in, along with the turbo, FPR, safc, everything at once, and then i will take MY CAR to the dyno.

We will be strapping the 20b onto ARTS car, with WI, SAFC, Boost controler, and some other mods we may incoroprate when we have the turbo, and we are going to take it to the dyno, strictly to see what power gains we can get out of it based on the CELICA, instaed of the mr2 with crappy intercooling.

like i said before, our cars will benifit more with the 20b then the mr2s will based strictly on the cooling factor, and being able to run higher boost levels with out detecting knock. Keeping the engine cool, and not running out of fuel are the 2 biggest probelms, but with the proper cooling, and with the addition of Meth, i see no reason we can not reach power levels just as, if not greater then the STOCK 3rd gen.

This post has been edited by 95st-celica: Jan 2, 2010 - 6:03 PM

[_Jim_]

bascially i am buying the 20b off of stevenson tomorrow, and both art and i have been planing on doing a turbo upgrade for a while now. I have been looking for a 20b at a reasonable price for quite some time now, but everything i found was in australia and way over priced.

I am picking up the turbo, and putting it on art's car. ONLY because he has an exhaust, and a meth kit already installed. i have the same exact mods as him, but they are in boxes in my room (way to cold out to be installing **** like this with no garage) once it warms up a little bit then i will put everyhting in, along with the turbo, FPR, safc, everything at once, and then i will take MY CAR to the dyno.

We will be strapping the 20b onto ARTS car, with WI, SAFC, Boost controler, and some other mods we may incoroprate when we have the turbo, and we are going to take it to the dyno, strictly to see what power gains we can get out of it based on the CELICA, instaed of the mr2 with crappy intercooling.

like i said before, our cars will benifit more with the 20b then the mr2s will based strictly on the cooling factor, and being able to run higher boost levels with out detecting knock. Keeping the engine cool, and not running out of fuel are the 2 biggest probelms, but with the proper cooling, and with the addition of Meth, i see no reason we can not reach power levels just as, if not greater then the STOCK 3rd gen.

Knock will not be an issue, as I have shown that already...because the Celicas have SUCH AGGRESSIVE intercooling that we can get away with higher boost levels. Your only limiting factor will be the fuel limitations of the stock GEN2 3sgte. You can make as much power as you want on 100% Meth really. The more meth you add in, the more fuel you are capable of pulling out which subsequently advances timing....thus making more power. Meth is an amazing fuel, but one that needs to be handled with care. I know Art knows the risks involved, so I am sure he will be keeping things on the safe side.

As for a GEN2 with a CT20B that has the abilty to tune AFR's (Art's SAFC) you really shouldnt have much trouble making the same power as a GEN3 STILL on the stock CT20B...up to a certain point. Looking forward to the results. Best of luck to you guys.

[95st-celica]

Even with the stock injectors and fuel system of the 2nd gen i dont see a problem, as long as it is being supported with methanol. Larger nozzles and a heavier mix will compensate for the added fuel.

What do you mean when you say "you really shouldnt have much trouble making the same power as a GEN3 STILL on the stock CT20B...up to a certain point."

basically what we are trying to determine is that with the addition if the upgraded turbo off of the 3rd gen(ct20b) that these motors will both put out equal HP numbers. its not like we are going out and putting on a GT2871 and saying YeA WEll we made 400whp with this!!..lol..we want a basically stock, even platform to go off of, and then compare the results once the boost is turned up.

Thanks jim, im looking forward to seeing what we can accomplish as well

[_Jim_]

Even with the stock injectors and fuel system of the 2nd gen i dont see a problem, as long as it is being supported with methanol. Larger nozzles and a heavier mix will compensate for the added fuel.

What do you mean when you say "you really shouldnt have much trouble making the same power as a GEN3 STILL on the stock CT20B...up to a certain point."

basically what we are trying to determine is that with the addition if the upgraded turbo off of the 3rd gen(ct20b) that these motors will both put out equal HP numbers. its not like we are going out and putting on a GT2871 and saying YeA WEll we made 400whp with this!!..lol..we want a basically stock, even platform to go off of, and then compare the results once the boost is turned up.

Thanks jim, im looking forward to seeing what we can accomplish as well

Like I said, you wont have any trouble making WHATEVER power goal you have in mind if you are willing to tune on Methanol Injection. Supra guys have tuned for 150+whp OVER what there pump gas tune have allowed them to do by supplementing enough Methanol. So you looking to supplement in 25-50whp isnt going to be a problem. Obviously this comes with its own fair share of risks, but Art knows all about them.

I have said it before, you wont have any trouble making the power the a Stock GEN3 makes STILL on the stock CT20B. Even tho the GEN3 3sgte has a better Intake manifold design, More aggressive cams, etc...you are comparing tuning on "race gas" (thats basically what tuning on methanol is comparable to) vs a stock GEN3 still on the factory ECU. After tuning a few 5s setups, I was quick to realize the power that can be pulled from tuning, it truely blew me away. And with Arts setup, you will have the ability to tune for the methanol, which is big. You will have MUCH better Afr's and more timing advance with Art's setup then you would comparing to say my stock GEN3 dyno's.

For example, if BOTH you and Art were installing these turbos, and planned on running the same amount of methanol injection...Art's numbers would be CONSIDERABLY higher then yours. Now, there would be ABSOLUTELY no difference between Art's setup and yours (same turbo, same generation, same bolt on mods, etc), EXCEPT for the fact Art has the ability to tune for the Meth with his SAFC and you wouldnt.

So the test you are doing I see more of a comparison of the benefits of tuning for Methanol, as compared to the same setup on Stock ECU with no tuning.

[lagos]

Here is the goal for this project...
A lot of the data and tuning theories we have come from the mr2 guys. While they do have the same GEN2 3SGTE and GEN3 3SGTE's as we do, their horsepower numbers are generally much lower than ours. Those guys go nuts when they slap on a ct20b and their car makes 230hp, while our 2nd gen engine swaps do that and more out of the box, due to the front engine layout, slightly more aggressive ecu's and ability to run massive intercoolers vs their tiny side mounts or trunk mounts.

Over the years I have come to realize that the mr2 guys are just not as right on everything as I originally thought. The constant bashing of SAFC tuning on the stock 3sgte (im not talking about alcohol injection) is a prime example of this, as there are ways to use the tool to tune the car for far greater spool up and throttle response than stock (I've been planning on making a thread about this).

On the other hand, our Celica communities seem to be very far behind in our research and documentation. We have guys here that build 5sfTe's or upgrade their turbo, and never bother to visit a dyno, and when they do, they post some kind of crappy scan of a print out that no one car really learn from. Manny and I did our best to kind of change that by posting screenshots of our runs and getting other members to do the same...

So anyway, this will be a research project to show some data on what you can expect when you upgrade your GEN2 3SGTE to a ct20b. My goal is not to beat someones peak horsepower number for bragging rights, as anyone who has been to a dyno a few times knows is pretty much a meaningless ballpark figure and that your actual performance on the street will differ depending on many conditions. The goal will be to show that the 2nd gen can kick some ass, and that its not a worthless setup. I want to compare the power curves at the same boost levels of the 2nd and 3rd gen engines and see exactly how things like TVIS and the slightly higher compression ratio of the 2nd gen compare to the slightly more aggressive cams and bigger intake manifold of the 3rd gen.

So basically, my goal is to make the same or more power at the same boost level as the 3rd gen engine, and provide an upgrade path for all the 2nd gen owners we have in our community.

Joe already has an SAFC that we will be installing once the weather gets nicer (or we find a garage to use). He still needs to put an exhaust on his car, buy a wideband, get alcohol injection..etc... so in the mean time his turbo is going on my car. By the time he gets all of that situated I will also purchase my own ct20b and we will be running the same setup, with him using the same tune, nozzle size, boost level,etc... that we have determined from this project.

ps. just to clarify a bit more... I am not simply going to copy califcarms setup. Thats not really what this is about. We do however plan to crack 300hp.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 3, 2010 - 6:52 PM

[Fate]

can't wait to see this.

[95st-celica]

basically what art said in a nutshell.

The whole OBJECTIVE of this project is not to prove that one motor is better than the other...for God sakes there both toyota 3s-gte engines, and either one are great, powerfull engines no matter which way you look at it. The fact of the matter is, we want to be able to prove solid facts that with the addition of the upgraded turbo between 93-94 on the 3sgte, that the HP gains were noticable, but the basic layout of the engine was not. And as art has stated, and as i will say myself, with my own research, is that i see NO problem with a 2nd gen engine cranking out over 300WHP with the proper tuning, and cooling.

I mean honeslty we could go back and forth about this all day, and the variables that get thrown in are endless. Ceramic turbine wheel as opposed to a steel wheel, 10* cooler on this dyno then that one, WI and not water injection, the list goes on and on and on. All i really want to see, is that with the little mods i have done to my car, such as an intake, Front mount intercooler, and safc, that anyone other noob can install, along with the ct20b, that we can push really respectiable numbers with basically, if not COMPLETELY a stock block.

This is just a little project that i have been wanting to do for quiet some time, and with the aviability of arts car, and all of the mods currently installed, i see no better way then to take it to the dyno and see what we can achieve.

Let me just say this...i would love to build, and probably WILL build anouther 6gc with a 3s swap. and no doubt would i go with a 3rd gen 3sgte. But for all of the throw back guys, who already have a 2nd gen, we are trying to show them how to get the most reliable, and best performance out of their 2nd gens with out breaking the bank.

300 whp should be a walk in the park in my honest oppinion, i would like to see more along the lines of 325-330WHP. THEN i will be satisfied

But lets just take one step at a time, do it the right way, and post the best posiable results that we come up with. I rather show numbers that others can simply achieve rather than throwing up something like 24 psi and 330whp.

should be interesting none the less

This post has been edited by 95st-celica: Jan 3, 2010 - 11:46 PM

[_Jim_]

Great to hear. You WILL be very successful with the CT20B on the stock unopened GEN2. There is no debating that. It has been done thousands of time by thousands of different people, so no real breaking ground there.

I didnt know we were debating that one Generation motor was better than another. That shouldnt be argued in this thread...if you want to start another thread about it, feel free.

I seem to be have "offended" you in some way, as there seems to be a little hostility with your comments, but that could very well be just how it came across over the internet. Just to clear the air, I NEVER said the GEN2 wasnt a powerful motor. That would just be ridiculous. The GEN2 IS just as powerful of a motor as a GEN3...as you said, they are both 3sgtes. I have said it before, that IF SWAPPING your car, and are CURRENTLY looking for a motor set/clip to buy, Spend your money on the GEN3. For 95% of the community, they will NEVER need more then 400whp...and this is FAR easily/cheaply accomplished with the GEN3 then the GEN2.

Just for a quick run down with your numbers. With the same 1500$ or less AFTER the swap of a GEN3 into your 6gc, you can make up to 400whp safely, and STILL on the stock ECU. Really the only reason the GEN3 can do this while STILL on the stock ECU and the stock GEN2 still on the ECU cant is because of the stock 440's that come in with the GEN2. Thats basically the ONLY reason. I said this in one of my first posts. The only real problem with the stock GEN2 is the small stock 440cc injectors. The GEN2 really isnt inferior to the GEN3...the only problem I have found while modding a GEN2 (and most peoples complaints) is that you run out of fuel so quickly (again, only because of the stock 440's on the GEN2). The BIGGEST advantage of the GEN3 is the stock 540cc injectors that allow you to achieve around 400whp.

Again, I hope I havent offened, and it is just the way I read your post...because that was never my intent. I posted all boost logs with my dyno plots and a write up of my build. So my results are just as easily duplicated as your build will be. And it was 330whp at 21psi (which you shouldnt have trouble dublicating.)

[lagos]

Upgrading to larger injectors really isn't as expensive and difficult as people make it out to be. But I will agree that the recent cheapness of 3rd gen motors makes them a good bang for the buck. But this thread is not about that at all.

Its about showing an upgrade path for current/future 2nd gen owners on a budget, while at the same time showing the benefits/draw backs of things like the tvis system, the cams of each motor and even the different tunes of the stock ecu's.

...and more importantly, its about making my car faster!

[_Jim_]

Its about showing an upgrade path for current/future 2nd gen owners on a budget, while at the same time showing the benefits/draw backs of things like the tvis system, the cams of each motor and even the different tunes of the stock ecu's.

AWESOME, will be a great thread to follow.