Swap harness question, 7afe to 4age Options

[96stgreendemon]

Wait, it feels slower?

[delusionz]

20v's heavily rely on the close ratio gear boxes theyre usually mated up to.

i dont know about at200 celicas but i know that ae111 corolla/trueno/levin for the same gear and the same speed, when a 3s/5s powered celica cruises at 2000rpm those 20v's cruise at 3000rpm for the same speed, and its not until 5th or 6th gear that the revs are the same as what a celica cruises at.


what this means in effect is... if u keep ur standard gearbox, and say if 2nd gear used to redline at 60mph and 6000rpm then with the 20v in 2nd gear your redline (and peak power) will be at 80mph and 8000rpm. this means ull never be in power band when u go around corners unless ur still in 1st gear, but thats ok, its no worse than before since your 7a never made any power anyways.

i dont know if u can use the 6 speed gearbox in ur celica that high spec blacktop cars had, but atleast get the 5 speed that they also came with.


EDIT: oh and the other thing is 20v's rely on the lightweightness of the car. in a 20v powered car the only way they can punch as hard as a celica from 3000rpm is by having 200kgs less weight.

This post has been edited by delusionz: Jan 24, 2011 - 11:44 AM

[96stgreendemon]

Im planning to use the 5 speed LSD transmission that is already bolted up to the engine so gearing will reamain the same as in the levin

[95CelicaST]

the 5sp is still a c52 transmission, so unless they geared it differently, it'll be the same.

A c60 with lsd would be nice, but they're fragile.

To liven it up, get your hands on a toda flywheel, t3 velocity stacks with jubiride mesh screens, and that's about all you can do to the 20v... Don't expect it to be very fast. It won't accelerate as well as the 7a, but it'll make beautiful noise as it does.

[96stgreendemon]

Bump, anyone with a 20v have any imput? i know the yeli celi was a 20v but anyone else?

[SupraKid]

Netrata in the 808 has a silvertop

This post has been edited by SupraKid: Jan 24, 2011 - 2:30 PM

[95CelicaST]

When I had the Yelli Celi dynoed it put down 130whp/130tq

The tuner, who specializes in the 4ag platform told me to expect 5whp difference with a blacktop, but no tq change.

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's an awesome motor and fun to drive, but it NEEDS to be above 5k rpm at all time to really shine.

[96stgreendemon]

Hmm..... Well depending on the price difference i may be going with a silvertop... who knows, i've been on club4ag alot lately doing some research and alot of them say there is a difference weather large or small because of the head having a diffrent port and having lighter rods and pistons allowing it to rev higher with less friction.... i guess back to researching

[delusionz]

silvertop vs blacktop?? the torque is the same. how much torque can u get from 1.6L anyways? the blacktop is able to rev 600rpm higher to account for 5hp. lol

[95CelicaST]

Wrong.

Peak power is made in the 6k rpm range... Which leaves both motors over 2k rpm left to run out.

[presure2]

swap a 4a, be prepared for disappointment.
you wont say it, cause you'll wanna cover your own a$$ in the end, but first time you ride in a 3s swapped 6gc, or even a beams swap, you'll wish you'd not spent your money on the 4a.

[96stgreendemon]

So basically the 4age is just a waste of money?

[SupraKid]

Not if you HAVE to rebuild your 7afe...I mean yes it wouldnt compare to a 3sg(t)e swap. But it is a crap load cheap and easier for us ST guys, plus you wont get get 20mpg premium like all the 3sgte swaps

[95st-celica]

if your looking for an N/A motor to build and keep N/A, and want somewhere close to the 200hp mark, i would highly suggest the beams swap. It's probably one of the easiest, best bang for your buck N/A engines that you can swap into the celica.

If you want something very close to N/A power but not turboed, the 4AGZE is another great choice. I remember someone posted a link to ebay where someone had swaped a 4agze into a 6th gen, and weither the numbers were correct or not, i remember it was somewhere around 180, which is respectable.

[96stgreendemon]

Im in need of a rebuild, but i also need to look at putting new timing system, water pump, thermostat, ignition, wires, velocity stacks, possibly webcams, and a few other odds and ends on the 4a if and when i do get it so i have to look at that also

[95CelicaST]

Webcams isn't going to get you cams for a 20V.

HKS (~$1000 for a pair), or Toda (good luck), or nothing.

[SupraKid]

Kyle do you plan to swap the tranny as well?Or keep your c52?Because if your gonna tranny swap id def go beams.

[delusionz]

Wrong.

Peak power is made in the 6k rpm range... Which leaves both motors over 2k rpm left to run out.

Wrong.

Peak torque starts at 6 yes, peak horsepower no.

the AE101 Levin redlines 500 or 600 short of 8000, the AE111 Levin redlines right on 8000, both motors make their peak horsepower right on the redline as do other 4 cyl GE engined cars of it's time such as the SS-II and SS-III Celicas.

If you're dropping off after 6k rpm it may have something to do with the bt ecu and silvertop setup you had.

[97lestyousay]

The 4a is a good motor I would take a 16V 4AGE over a 7afe any day, yes the 4a makes more power up top but they are
not the puny little wimp for low end. I have thought about swapping my 7a with the 140 hp16V 4AGE I have sitting in my garage.
I haven't because I really want a 3rd gen 3s. I would think about what you really want, for a basic commuter engine, the 4a is a
helluva lot more fun than a 7a to drive. The main problem is, even if you spend a ton of money to build the engine, turbo, ect, it is
still going to be less power than a stock 3rd gen 3s, with nowhere to go after that.

If I remember correct, Coomer put a 7A geared tranny in the yelli celi, so it is going probably seem different than a 4A geared tranny,
as far as low end.

[richee3]

It wouldn't be that much more difficult to swap a BEAMS into an ST. Just need a few little things. But the issue that I see is cost. The 20V can be had for a lot less than a BEAMS. It seems like in all the posts I've read, the 4A will actually cost you power on the low end over the 7A. The 7A will pull harder from a stop. But as far as options go, you have the 7A-FTE, which will mean a full rebuild of your engine plus all the added items for the turbo build. Then you have the 4A series engines, the 4A-GZE being the best, of course. But I don't really see how you can go wrong with a Silvertop over the 7A. Yes, you may have to rev it hard to get any power, but you have to do that with an S2000 as well, and people never complain about that. Besides, quite frankly, you have to rev the 7A as hard as you can and it never rewards you with more power like the 4A-GE will.

There are pros and cons to the swap, obviously. Cons being less low end power, pros are more top end power and cost/ease to swap as opposed to the 3S's you could get.