5S-FE fuel?, What fuel to use? Options

[UVZ164]

Hey guys, I'm kinda new here and not sure if this is the right place to post this.

I did a search but couldn't find the specific answers I wanted so I thought i'd ask.
I live in Sydney Aust and the fuels available to us are: E10(10% ethanol) 91 octane, and regular 95 and 98 unleaded.
I recently bought a ST204 ZR which is the equivalent to the American GT. It runs the 5S-FE.
The guy I bought it from told me to steer clear of the E10 as it will ruin the engine. As my wallet isn't that deep I decided to give the cheaper E10 a go.
After about a month and a half of running the E10(i'm assuming the previous owner used 95) i'm beginning to hear a noise almost like tapping when I rev the engine above 3k rpm and just let it decrease naturally. As it never made this noise before, could I be right in assuming that the E10 is doing something and possibly ruining the engine? The owners manual states that 91 octane is as low as you can go but it doesn't say anything about Ethanol.

Thanks in advance,

Reece

[Rav4Race]

Ethanol normally improves your octane rating. More octane = less detonation. try to use the best fuel that is, the one whose octane rating is closest to 100. what kind of noise are u hearing? is it as if your car was draggling a chain when u step on gas? if this is so, then it is called detonation (the chain sound). I dont think ethanol will ruin your engine. If it had to ruin something, your spark plug would have been the first to be ruined. Have a look at your plugs.

[UVZ164]

The noise only occurs when i am off throttle after revving the engine up to somewhere around 3k rpm. It sounds like a tapping noise just very very rapid

[stephen_lee]

E10 wont cause an issue. Here in the US 99% of the gas stations sale E10.

[presure2]

^^agreed. We've been running e10 in the states for at least a couple years now with no issues.
Can you take a vid of the engine? Could be as simple as a valve whim adjustment.

[jakesne]

I've replaced fuel pumps on a couple different cars since the switch to E10. If you care for a read:
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/cont...0514_058678.htm

[richee3]

E10 burns a little quicker than regular fuel but otherwise it's harmless. The 5S isn't a performance engine, so just use whatever fuel is cheapest and disregard what the previous owner told you. The noise probably isn't anything big, it could be a noise you never noticed before and now that you've heard it, it's easily distinguishable. Or, as Manny said, it could be something very simple.

[RabidTRD]

E10 burns a little quicker than regular fuel but otherwise it's harmless. The 5S isn't a performance engine, so just use whatever fuel is cheapest and disregard what the previous owner told you. The noise probably isn't anything big, it could be a noise you never noticed before and now that you've heard it, it's easily distinguishable. Or, as Manny said, it could be something very simple.

I would never run "the cheapest gas" in my car, but I guess that's personal preference. I have noticed a difference in performance when it comes to octane. My car likes mid-grade and nothing less. Hess sells "E10" in an 89, which is what I run. Running ****ty fuel and ****ty plugs results in bad cats and premature death of oxygen sensors. Also, it may not be a performance engine, but it is performing higher than it would in a Camry, therefore it should be taken care of better. Your same 5S-FE in a Camry never reaches the RPM's ours does in the Celica because the transmission, unless you smash on the gas, doesn't do it. There is a reason the Camry takes 5W30 oil weight from the factory and the Celica takes 10W30. It has to be protected against thermal breakdown. Yes, our cars are tuned and tweaked by Japan to run at the **** octane we have here, but it doesn't mean that we should accept **** in our cars.

E10 or 10% ethanol will corrode your pump and eat away at the inside of your injectors. It takes time, but it does happen. The best way to avoid damage in the states is to run an ethanol treatment every so often. It protects against the buildup of corrosion and cleans out any possible corrosion that there may be.

Just wait until the government raises the ethanol to 15%.

/TLDR
Do not use the ethanol based gas if you can help it. It will ultimately damage your car and the fuel system.

This post has been edited by RabidTRD: Oct 19, 2011 - 4:55 PM

[presure2]

personally, i dont believe that for a second.

[RabidTRD]

Keep in mind that 10% ethanol is "safe." But most of the time, cars have more than 10% in their tanks. 10% isn't always what you're getting.

This post has been edited by RabidTRD: Oct 19, 2011 - 6:28 PM

[Galcobar]

There's a difference between cheap fuel, which may not be as high quality, and low-octane fuel, which will be of equal quality but has less octane (and sometimes other non-essential but nice-sounding cleaning additives).

Crap fuel, of any octane rating, is bad for your engine.

Low octane fuel is only bad for your engine if your engine actually needs the high octane levels -- typically, in higher performance/compression engines. The 5SFE is designed for low octane fuel. In North America, 87 gas is sufficient and recommended in the Celica owner's manual for the 5SFE. Using higher octane numbers just means the ECU has to compensate by altering the timing -- it doesn't gain you compression or performance.

Different countries use different measures for the octane number.

North American pumps display the rating as a function of (R+M)/2). The vast majority of the world, in this case notably Australia, uses the Research Octane Number. North American pumps for the lowest-end gas show 87, while European/Australian pumps would show 91 or 92 for the same gas.

Ethanol acts much like octane, so when using a blended gasoline the octane rating you see is based on its equivalence to a gasoline/octane mix. From your engine's timing perspective they're the same in regards to delayed detonation.

The danger of ethanol is to some (mostly natural) plastic and rubber. While the 10% ethanol does a great job in reducing CO2 emissions (it replaced MTBE which pollutes ground water, though modern electronic AF management has largely made it pointless) it absorb waters far better than gasoline and thus is more likely to dry out those rubber and plastic parts. However, modern neoprene rubber is not affected by alcohol exposure and was in common use by the mid-1980s, most notably in Japanese vehicles. Vehicles made in the 1990s, unlike small engines found in chainsaws and the like, should not suffer parts failure because of ethanol unless someone goofs in the design (Toyota did notably a few years back, prompting a recall of leaky fuel systems).

There is a significant danger, however, in switching from straight gasoline to gasohol. It's the same danger as running a concentrated fuel cleaner such as Seafoam through your system (which is why Seafoam is careful in its instructions about properly dilution); accumulated gunk is dissolved, and then has to travel through the fuel system. Most vehicle failures associated with gasohol are actually due to this rather than parts corrosion. Twenty years of gunk released in one shot is liable to do some damage. Between the relatively mild E10 blend and it being in place for some years, if you haven't had that failure yet you're not likely to now.

____________________________________________

That said, most of the above is irrelevant to the OP's original question. Short form: using the recommended fuel in your vehicle is not going to cause your vehicle to fail. An Australian gas with an octane rating of 91 is quite sufficient. More likely is that your 12- to 17-year-old engine needs some work, which might be as simple as a valve adjustment. If your engine was pinging due to low octane values allowing for premature detonation, your knock sensor would let you know.

[mandrek]

E10 burns a little quicker than regular fuel but otherwise it's harmless. The 5S isn't a performance engine, so just use whatever fuel is cheapest and disregard what the previous owner told you. The noise probably isn't anything big, it could be a noise you never noticed before and now that you've heard it, it's easily distinguishable. Or, as Manny said, it could be something very simple.

I would never run "the cheapest gas" in my car, but I guess that's personal preference. I have noticed a difference in performance when it comes to octane. My car likes mid-grade and nothing less. Hess sells "E10" in an 89, which is what I run. Running ****ty fuel and ****ty plugs results in bad cats and premature death of oxygen sensors. Also, it may not be a performance engine, but it is performing higher than it would in a Camry, therefore it should be taken care of better. Your same 5S-FE in a Camry never reaches the RPM's ours does in the Celica because the transmission, unless you smash on the gas, doesn't do it. There is a reason the Camry takes 5W30 oil weight from the factory and the Celica takes 10W30. It has to be protected against thermal breakdown. Yes, our cars are tuned and tweaked by Japan to run at the **** octane we have here, but it doesn't mean that we should accept **** in our cars.

E10 or 10% ethanol will corrode your pump and eat away at the inside of your injectors. It takes time, but it does happen. The best way to avoid damage in the states is to run an ethanol treatment every so often. It protects against the buildup of corrosion and cleans out any possible corrosion that there may be.

Just wait until the government raises the ethanol to 15%.

/TLDR
Do not use the ethanol based gas if you can help it. It will ultimately damage your car and the fuel system.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OMG.. what a load of crap.. i dont know what kind of propoganda you have been reading.. but your all wrong about the E10, and i would assume that your views extend to E85 aswell.. wow.. come on, this guy is asking for help, REAL help. not hokus pokus mumbo jumbo BS..

HANDS DOWN the E is BETTER for your car, and envirornment....

but i guess all of the Evo's and STI's and other high performance cars out there pushing 400+++++ whp on E85, and doing so for YEARS.. are all wrong about ethanol..

the ONLY issue from running any E mix comes from the sedaments and deposits in your system that gets cleaned out when switching over to an E-mix.. as Galcobar pointed out... that and the "rubber gunk" that some will find on the end of there injectors afte using E, comes from poor quality control measures on the part of the station u are purchasing ur fuel from, ( most notibly those whoe do not install new tanks for use of the new fuel type, why you should ALWAYS try to find the newest station around to fill up from) and from poor grounding/insulation of the fuel system....

other than that Galcobar has covered the rest verry well...

[richee3]

I lol at the threads and the general misinformation about octane ratings. Octane resists detonation, not add power. You don't get "more fuel" in your fuel by pumping a higher octane. Galcobar covered all the bases, 100%. To further his point, I have to pump at least 91 in my IS 300. Why? Compression. The 2JZ-GE isn't a super high compression engine, but it's not exactly low compression in NA form. When I pump anything less than 91, the ECU has to compensate by pulling timing, which throws a CEL, until so much timing is pulled that the car can barely idle. And if I stab the gas with lower octane fuel, I run the risk of pinging and causing serious damage.

By the same token, pumping anything higher than 87 in a Celica is throwing money away because it won't make any difference. It doesn't burn any hotter, it doesn't burn any cleaner, all it does is resist knocking.

I misspoke in my last post. I said use "the cheapest fuel," but I didn't mean run utter crap in your car. I meant whichever octane rating happens to be cheapest. There is a definite difference between top tier fuels and octane ratings. But, as I said, Galcobar has already covered that better than I can. Just Google top tier fuels and you'll find everything you need to know.

Main point- OP, don't worry about what the last owner of your car told you about running premium fuel in your car. If it actually does happen to have an issue, it isn't related to the octane rating of the fuel you've been using.

This post has been edited by richee3: Oct 20, 2011 - 6:55 PM

[mandrek]

in sorry if i come accross like an ass here, im not trying to. but it gets so frustrating to see the same ,nay-saying, talking points about E10 and further more E85.. the same disinformation and misinformation by people who do want to accept change... there is a reason why E85 has taken the import seen by storm.. because it WORKS.. and its a hell of alot cheaper than having to run race gas all the time..

as to the OP. i appologise for the OT post. and yes, much as i am finding out on my current motor break-down, odds are that the sound you are noticing are just due to a 15 year old car showing its age.. plz if you could post a vid or at least a sound clip, im sure that there is enough experiese on this forum to help you out.. once we get some more information..

good luck

[ricochet1490]

E10 burns a little quicker than regular fuel but otherwise it's harmless. The 5S isn't a performance engine, so just use whatever fuel is cheapest and disregard what the previous owner told you. The noise probably isn't anything big, it could be a noise you never noticed before and now that you've heard it, it's easily distinguishable. Or, as Manny said, it could be something very simple.

I would never run "the cheapest gas" in my car, but I guess that's personal preference. I have noticed a difference in performance when it comes to octane. My car likes mid-grade and nothing less. Hess sells "E10" in an 89, which is what I run. Running ****ty fuel and ****ty plugs results in bad cats and premature death of oxygen sensors. Also, it may not be a performance engine, but it is performing higher than it would in a Camry, therefore it should be taken care of better. Your same 5S-FE in a Camry never reaches the RPM's ours does in the Celica because the transmission, unless you smash on the gas, doesn't do it. There is a reason the Camry takes 5W30 oil weight from the factory and the Celica takes 10W30. It has to be protected against thermal breakdown. Yes, our cars are tuned and tweaked by Japan to run at the **** octane we have here, but it doesn't mean that we should accept **** in our cars.

E10 or 10% ethanol will corrode your pump and eat away at the inside of your injectors. It takes time, but it does happen. The best way to avoid damage in the states is to run an ethanol treatment every so often. It protects against the buildup of corrosion and cleans out any possible corrosion that there may be.

Just wait until the government raises the ethanol to 15%.

/TLDR
Do not use the ethanol based gas if you can help it. It will ultimately damage your car and the fuel system.

I also am not buying this for a stinking minute. Other members here have already, and quite eloquently I might add, spoken many of the truths about ethanol. I would like to add that it was in the early 90's that US fuel starting including 10% ethanol. It's a RARE day when I get gas and the sticker doesn't say 10% E. The MYTH about it ruining fuel pumps is ONLY true on pre 1990 vehicles really when the rubber and plastic in the fuel lines was eaten by the ethanol. Now days, and this includes our cars, all of the rubber and plastic in the fuel system could handle 100% E if needed. Whenever I can find it where I live, I put E85 in my car on purpose to about a 50% mixture to reduce my cost at the pump and give the system a little clean. I ran it long enough over the summer i had "trained" my ecu to adjust the A/F to run it at up to 70% E85... and I am obviously NOT a flex fuel vehicle, whose only modification is a sensor to detect presence and percentage of E85 to adjust fuel economy. They don't run anything BUT E85 in many actual racing leagues as well.

Otherwise, to answer your question man.... I run (here 87) the cheapest gas at the pump. I've owned the car for 48,000 miles and I've never noticed a problem, and that includes the "chain sound", or pre-ignition. And trust me, I've driven it HARD at times, never a problem clear to redline. Run the cheap gas, never look back. But do keep an eye on it and check the plugs for damage. In a car of this age however, it could be ANY number of things.... Trust in the 5s, its a work-horse. I call mine Ole' Ironside because of it's indestructibility haha.
Good Luck

[k-weaver]

There is a lot of good information in this post in regards to fuel. I'll be the first to say I pump 91 into my tank. A while back ago I tried 87, 89, and 91. I noticed no power difference whatsoever between the three. What I did notice however is that on lower octane fuel my exhaust would pop on decel. Once I started running 91 my popping decreased. I still get the occasional pop in the high RPM but its not as much or as loud as it was when I ran 87.

[stephen_lee]

I also run the highest grade too, because I advanced my timing, and if I use low grade I get pinging. So there are a few exceptions.

[UVZ164]

Thanks alot guys for the info, i think ill stick with the E10 since its about 20c/litre cheaper and i don't notice any difference in power. Ill try post up a decent vid of the noise that im hearing.
Thanks again!

[UVZ164]

Tried to take a vid and soundclip but its not noticeable in the slightest in either. I checked the plugs and injectors and they seem good so i'm prob just being pedantic. Thanks again