A Challenge to the community Options

[boosted_K2]

Personally I have become increasingly agitated at the amount of people posting incorrect information and unbackable claims... its one thing to post to discuss it, but when you are posting "as fact" you need to make sure your facts are correct. In my honest to god opinion it would be beneficial for a good portion of the forum's members to stop posting for a while and go read a few automotive and/or engineering books or hell... even for the laziest of people, go over to howstuffworks.com or wikipedia.com and just start searching automotive related topics that you "THINK" you know about, they dumb it down so much anyone can understand it, but its technical enough to give you a much better understanding.... I challenge all of you to do it and come back with certifiable evidence to have intelligent conversations with each other, and hopefully make me feel like an idiot at some point and prove me wrong. I am not saying I know everything (hell, I don’t have a clue on a lot of things, I usually just say I don’t have a clue instead of making **** up), I'm not saying there aren’t any good or informative topics on here (skimming through a lot of the FI forum proves that), but just in general I feel this would be beneficial.

My other challenge is to understand WHY you are doing a certain modification. One thing that really bewilders me is suspension modification. Why do you spend money on body braces and sway bars and fender braces... how is that cost justified? If you are doing it for the look or the show of the part then fine I can’t have any disagreement with that. But IMO people need to start asking "what am I trying to accomplish with my setup" before they start part shopping. Save yourself the time and money by formulating a plan before attacking.

Ok, my rants over, thanks for reading.

[celicast3sgte]

i agree 100%

[trdproven]

From a neutral standpoint, I agree, there is a bunch of posts here that may be answered wrong, but at some point I got to disagree because some of the posts that sound like guesses are sometimes actually personal experiences. People with the same issue might have different solutions to the same problem. Again, I agree that yes many of us may not know everything but people here don't answer based on knowledge, but based on what they've seen, done, or experienced. Its one thing to read and know but to feel and experience are totally different. A real community is not based on a bunch of all knowledgeable people but people who learn and experience the same interest together and get smarter. I'm not trying to take anyones side or even blame anyone, I'm just saying, for the most part, we are all learning as we go along and we share that information. If we were all knowledgeable, we all wouldn't be here. We will get better together. Hopefully, everyone even myself will post as honest and factual as possible.

[celicast3sgte]

well its not like he is trying to say anyone here is stupid or should never post. its more of a think before you speak kind of thing. If you had an experience relating to the topic then post your experience and what you did to fix it. But what he is saying that if you do that don't preach that the way you solved it is THE way to solve it.

thats what i got out of what he is saying anyways.

[BlackCelicaGT94]

Halleluiah

[trdproven]

Not to make a big thing out of this but people here do think before they speak. A good example is that I work in the IT field for a long time and many of us techs think differently but we can still fix the same problem in our own ways. So the point being is that people here are not posting the IDEAL or ACTUAL fix for problems but IDEAS to help eliminate possibilities so to help solve the problem. But for the least, people should have some idea or confident before they post. Thats why I said my earlier post was neutral.

[uberschall]

i concur in spades, but now i don't want to say anything.

[confucious]

Personally I have become increasingly agitated at the amount of people posting incorrect information and unbackable claims... its one thing to post to discuss it, but when you are posting "as fact" you need to make sure your facts are correct. In my honest to god opinion it would be beneficial for a good portion of the forum's members to stop posting for a while and go read a few automotive and/or engineering books or hell... even for the laziest of people, go over to howstuffworks.com or wikipedia.com and just start searching automotive related topics that you "THINK" you know about, they dumb it down so much anyone can understand it, but its technical enough to give you a much better understanding.... I challenge all of you to do it and come back with certifiable evidence to have intelligent conversations with each other, and hopefully make me feel like an idiot at some point and prove me wrong. I am not saying I know everything (hell, I don’t have a clue on a lot of things, I usually just say I don’t have a clue instead of making **** up), I'm not saying there aren’t any good or informative topics on here (skimming through a lot of the FI forum proves that), but just in general I feel this would be beneficial.

My other challenge is to understand WHY you are doing a certain modification. One thing that really bewilders me is suspension modification. Why do you spend money on body braces and sway bars and fender braces... how is that cost justified? If you are doing it for the look or the show of the part then fine I can’t have any disagreement with that. But IMO people need to start asking "what am I trying to accomplish with my setup" before they start part shopping. Save yourself the time and money by formulating a plan before attacking.

Ok, my rants over, thanks for reading.

some advice is better than none? the people who actually know what they are talking about are few and far inbetween and are not logged in 24/7 nor do they want to answer every post. somewhere to start is better than nothing in my opinion. i could probably answer 80% of the questions in the forum but i do not really care to help people out, i am here for entertainment.

[CelicaGT04]

well its not like he is trying to say anyone here is stupid or should never post. its more of a think before you speak kind of thing. If you had an experience relating to the topic then post your experience and what you did to fix it. But what he is saying that if you do that don't preach that the way you solved it is THE way to solve it.

thats what i got out of what he is saying anyways.

Personally I have become increasingly agitated at the amount of people posting incorrect information and unbackable claims... its one thing to post to discuss it, but when you are posting "as fact" you need to make sure your facts are correct. In my honest to god opinion it would be beneficial for a good portion of the forum's members to stop posting for a while and go read a few automotive and/or engineering books or hell... even for the laziest of people, go over to howstuffworks.com or wikipedia.com and just start searching automotive related topics that you "THINK" you know about, they dumb it down so much anyone can understand it, but its technical enough to give you a much better understanding.... I challenge all of you to do it and come back with certifiable evidence to have intelligent conversations with each other, and hopefully make me feel like an idiot at some point and prove me wrong. I am not saying I know everything (hell, I don’t have a clue on a lot of things, I usually just say I don’t have a clue instead of making **** up), I'm not saying there aren’t any good or informative topics on here (skimming through a lot of the FI forum proves that), but just in general I feel this would be beneficial.

My other challenge is to understand WHY you are doing a certain modification. One thing that really bewilders me is suspension modification. Why do you spend money on body braces and sway bars and fender braces... how is that cost justified? If you are doing it for the look or the show of the part then fine I can’t have any disagreement with that. But IMO people need to start asking "what am I trying to accomplish with my setup" before they start part shopping. Save yourself the time and money by formulating a plan before attacking.

Ok, my rants over, thanks for reading.

I beg the differ my good sir. He did indeed state that he "think it beneficial" for some members to stop posting until further educated in automotive techniques. But the way I see it, this is a FORUM ("For the discussion of interest of the public") by defintion i think it would be fair to let people say what they want as long as it be related to the topic stated. If it bothers you that many people here are UNDEReducated in the automotive field then i guess you can say to yourself "Im definately better than that guy/girl". But i see no reason what so ever, that a person who is a member of this forum to not be able to express what they THINK would be correct. If they are wrong, who cares? Yeah maybe some people who are WELL educated can correct them, but this forum is for learnging purposes. If everyone knew what they were doing why would we have a forum in the first place? This is just my opinion on the whole "Dont post untill further educated in automotive field" I think that is invasion of public freedom in this forum. Who are you to say that people shouldnt post untill YOU think they are educated enough in auto mechanics, to have a conversation? But like i said this is just my opinion, But im sure it will cause some sort of controversy. Apologies to the 6gc forum.

Mario

[vozizm]

I am new to this board but not new to forums as i am a mod on one and use to be a admin on another!!


It has been my experience that most kats with the KNOWLEDGE wont post an answer to something they deem the asker should already know or should have used the search feature to get an answer to...

Welcome the nubees, and school them on the search feature,,, hell post a link to the answer they are looking for!!


maybe,,,just maybe that is why bad info is being given out.. if you know its bad info step in and say so!!


We kewl?

[Chanh55]

^ I agree with you CelicaGT04, you bring up a great point. I think telling people not to post untill they're "Educated" enough to is a little... well mean...

[purplegt4]

One thing that really bewilders me is suspension modification. Why do you spend money on body braces and sway bars and fender braces.

i have sway bars, damper kit, & nice street tires. i love twistys.

for curvy roads!

and btw this is from YOUR profile boosted...

"am learning more and more about the sport everyday, if you are interested in getting into motorsports I am more than happy to point you in the right direction!"

well i guess that's a thrown bs flag right there if i do say so myself!

This post has been edited by purplegt4: Sep 25, 2006 - 8:10 PM

[laff09]

One thing that really bewilders me is suspension modification. Why do you spend money on body braces and sway bars and fender braces.

i have sway bars, damper kit, & nice street tires. i love twistys.

for curvy roads!

and btw this is from YOUR profile boosted...

"am learning more and more about the sport everyday, if you are interested in getting into motorsports I am more than happy to point you in the right direction!"

well i guess that's a thrown bs flag right there if i do say so myself!

I don't believe he said he didn't want to help anyone, actually i think he said the opposite...except for those who flame people for asking questions...

[trdproven]

Isn't what GT04 what I said or no?

[boosted_K2]

I was originally worried about posting this as I thought it would be taken the wrong way but man I am glad I put it up. It seems you guys really got the jist well as to what i am trying to put out there with a few little things that I can see I was not completely clear about and maybe posed in the wrong way.

From celicast3sgte:
"well its not like he is trying to say anyone here is stupid or should never post. its more of a think before you speak kind of thing. If you had an experience relating to the topic then post your experience and what you did to fix it. But what he is saying that if you do that don't preach that the way you solved it is THE way to solve it."

and from CelicaGT04:
“But i see no reason what so ever, that a person who is a member of this forum to not be able to express what they THINK would be correct. If they are wrong, who cares? Yeah maybe some people who are WELL educated can correct them, but this forum is for learnging purposes.”

since these are both commenting on the same topic I'll respond to both at once. The idea of my comment

"its one thing to post to discuss it, but when you are posting "as fact" you need to make sure your facts are correct. In my honest to god opinion it would be beneficial for a good portion of the forum's members to stop posting for a while and go read a few automotive and/or engineering books"

the situations I am eluding to aren't with people giving options or opinions to help people with issues, it's more or less with things being posted "as fact". For example; you need this, or you have to do this, or you are going to break this or the opposite (you cant, dont, or wont) or this is better than that etc... These types of things can be cleared up that they are infact incorrect by having a basic or mid level technical understanding of why and how something works or does what it does. My general gist of this is that if you dont have a decent understanding of how and why then why comment on something you dont know much more about than the person posing the question. That way, when people search for things, they don't find incorrect information. Hopefully that clears up the confusion about me telling people not to post, i just meant don't post answers if you don't really know enough about a subject... or if you want to be helpful help them look up the answer, its incredibly easy to find information on the internet but it's just as easy to find incorrect info... thats what im trying to get away from.



from purplegt4
"QUOTE(boosted_K2 @ Sep 25, 2006 - 2:35 PM) *

One thing that really bewilders me is suspension modification. Why do you spend money on body braces and sway bars and fender braces.


i have sway bars, damper kit, & nice street tires. i love twistys.

woot.gif for curvy roads!

and btw this is from YOUR profile boosted...

"am learning more and more about the sport everyday, if you are interested in getting into motorsports I am more than happy to point you in the right direction!""


honestly i love this post haha it gave me a big smile
what im getting at is theres a vast majority of people do these modifications for different reasons... most typically spirited street driving, for show, and the occasional autocrosser/open track racer. though it doesnt really partain to show (you gotta have all the goods to do well at a show so w/e) but for typical street driving how do you know what your car needs to perform better? a common misconception i am getting at is that all these parts are needed to make your car handle better. it just strikes me as crazy that people do all these crazy suspension mods and spend thousands of dollars, then dont even get their car aligned afterward, they just take it out for a spin around the block and comment how much better it feels... what is a "feel" anyway? does it turn in harder? hold a tighter radius around a turn? does it feel balanced? hows it "feel" is more than just a good or bad answer as everyone likes their car setup differently. It just seems so crazy that people would buy parts and equipment because its "good"... there needs to be something more qualitative than that. I think i am just rambling on this topic again so im done unless someone else wants to comment, or if you want to chat suspensions IM me, they are my new found fetish.... and also one of the things i know the least about haha


yes, i am learning more and more about the sport and the modification process each day. that profile was last updated well over a year ago but it still rings true, ive been fortunate enough through school, racing, and experience working on cars to have learned a tremendous ammount. Every day i feel like a total idiot when i get to class or talk to my friends who have graduated or chat with accomplished people in the automotive and racing field. I love it, and I love feeling dumb, it means I am still learning and it makes me incredibly humble, I learned that trying to fudge knowledge is no way to learn, admiting when you dont know something is the best and quickest way to find out about it.

[celica47]

hey bro i would like to say i really like how you approached this. Instead of being an ASS you are clearing mis understood statements up and i think its great. But back to the topic, i know that i dont much but when i see posts that i can answer, i answer with research that i have gained and what i have took from what i read, whether that be right or wrong it would vary you know. But i think some people post so Senior members dont have to answer the same questions to people who have just joined the site.

[purplegt4]

yea i know what you m ean. i've never knew how a fender brace would make a difference. lol probably just another ploy to get some money.

[boosted_K2]

ya, i know what you are saying. i would like to keep the topic away from the "I do this" type of thing, i realize with a topic title like " A Challenge to the community" it can come off a bit attacking... i dont feel anyone needs to defend themselves as i am not trying to be specific to anyone or group of members etc... the post is just to put the idea out there to have people really question how and why things work the way they work (or dont) before posting about it. I guess its just the engineer/technical part of me that doesnt take fact for fact unless i understand why it is, and it seems that theres a common theme of posting that is false or misleading because the poster doesnt understand that part of it, and instead of the question being posed, it just is another person accepting it as fact instead of figuring out the reasoning behind it.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

If people here aren't willing to search for the answers to their Celica-related question, what makes you think they're going to search through books to help themselves be more educated. I'm sorry but this forum aggravates me often because the amount of mis-information being spread about things. You have people replying to topics with info that someone else said. Problem is, how does that person know that info is correct or not. Most of the time they don't bother to look for themselves to see if that is a fact or opinion. Like for instance, the most common reply to a "What engine should I swap?" topic is "3S-GTE". The people that ask that question shouldn't make a topic to see what engine he/she should swap. He/she should do his own research to see which engine will satisfy his own needs. He/she shouldn't get an engine that everybody else is telling them to get, because more than like the people that reply to him/her are basing their opinion on what everyone else has told them to get.

Research, it is an action that a lot of people here do not seem to do.

[boosted_K2]

the point is to challenge the community to change, not condemn it for being monotonous in its approach. lots of things have changed on this board since it was first opened, it is my feeling this is the next step to becoming a more educated and informational driven board.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

the point is to challenge the community to change, not condemn it for being monotonous in its approach. lots of things have changed on this board since it was first opened, it is my feeling this is the next step to becoming a more educated and informational driven board.

Well they won't change if they're not willing to do research for themselves and become more educated. Some would much rather have the answers spoon-fed to them instead of looking for it themselves.

[boosted_K2]

the point is to challenge the community to change, not condemn it for being monotonous in its approach.


"Well they won't change if they're not willing to do research for themselves and become more educated. Some would much rather have the answers spoon-fed to them instead of looking for it themselves."

so you're saying it's a fact that no one will change, eh?

[BLADDER_MASTER]

the point is to challenge the community to change, not condemn it for being monotonous in its approach.


"Well they won't change if they're not willing to do research for themselves and become more educated. Some would much rather have the answers spoon-fed to them instead of looking for it themselves."

so you're saying it's a fact that no one will change, eh?

I'm saying that the forum won't change if people won't change.

[boosted_K2]

if you want to debate it more we can use PM or IM, the topic isnt really about debating if the forum will change or not, debating it wont help one way or the other.

[Kwanza26]

I agree... too often people want and follow others off of cliffs without ever asking 'why'... although boosted_k2 might not condemn many of the community, I will, short of naming names. Sometimes I wonder why people so enthusiastically preach "3SGTE" or "it'll drop right in" or whatever topic, yet the only mods they've ever produced or experienced themselves are a muffler and some taillights? There's a difference between 'free discussion' and 'out of the box' ideas and simply repeating 'information' that lingers from person to person (remember that game telephone?)... unfortunately when 1/2 of the community are "internet mechanics" who've honed their skills from scrolling text and vague pictures, this 'information' is worth nothing. This is what's called "hear-say" in court and isn't permissable as evidence... therefore... some should make an effort to simply... well... shut the hell up. Research is easy and I hear this google thing is really intuitive and easy to use... so why not make the effort to feed yourself information sometimes the hard way... instead of letting someone else feed you mis-information the easy way. Like they say... you get what you pay for.

[CelicaGT04]

If people here aren't willing to search for the answers to their Celica-related question, what makes you think they're going to search through books to help themselves be more educated. I'm sorry but this forum aggravates me often because the amount of mis-information being spread about things. You have people replying to topics with info that someone else said. Problem is, how does that person know that info is correct or not. Most of the time they don't bother to look for themselves to see if that is a fact or opinion. Like for instance, the most common reply to a "What engine should I swap?" topic is "3S-GTE". The people that ask that question shouldn't make a topic to see what engine he/she should swap. He/she should do his own research to see which engine will satisfy his own needs. He/she shouldn't get an engine that everybody else is telling them to get, because more than like the people that reply to him/her are basing their opinion on what everyone else has told them to get.

Research, it is an action that a lot of people here do not seem to do.

I have to agree with MOST of what you said. The only thing i have to disagree with is what you said about the 3sgte swap as your example. Your saying that people SHOULDNT ask what engine he/she should look into putting into their celica, but tell me what engines came stock in the US model GT and ST, its not the 3sgte. So asking questions in my opinion on the topic is quite ok. THAT IS AFTER they have read the stickys which will inform then on OTHER swaps done by other members meaning other members OPINIONS and EXPERIENCES on how their swapped was performed and completed. You would peobably be suprised at the amount of research people put in, but i will agree some people just want it handed to them on a platter. But if you really think about it, the 3sgte swaps in the stickys are as close to the facts as we have and almost everyday i see something new about how you can better the swaps and how they get easier and easier.
That is just my opinion, i think everyone in this forum has the free will to say what they wish and if they say something irrational then someone will correct them, its as simple as that. Like i said earlier if everyone knew everything about the celica there would be absolutely no point for the forums. I hope this causes no controversy it is just my opinion on the topic and if you dont like it pay no attention to it.

Mario

[Kwanza26]

I have to agree with MOST of what you said. The only thing i have to disagree with is what you said about the 3sgte swap as your example. Your saying that people SHOULDNT ask what engine he/she should look into putting into their celica, but tell me what engines came stock in the US model GT and ST, its not the 3sgte. So asking questions in my opinion on the topic is quite ok.

I think you misunderstand what Bladder means. He means simply... if you're serious about doing a swap... act serious about it. Do as much of your research on your own because no-one over the internet is gonna do the swap for you. Prepare yourself. This has little to do with asking people's opinions or asking of people's experience. Just coming in here and asking typical swap questions not only shows you're not as serious as you claim, but you're ill ready to do a true swap yourself.

THAT IS AFTER they have read the stickys which will inform then on OTHER swaps done by other members meaning other members OPINIONS and EXPERIENCES on how their swapped was performed and completed. You would peobably be suprised at the amount of research people put in, but i will agree some people just want it handed to them on a platter. But if you really think about it, the 3sgte swaps in the stickys are as close to the facts as we have and almost everyday i see something new about how you can better the swaps and how they get easier and easier.
That is just my opinion, i think everyone in this forum has the free will to say what they wish and if they say something irrational then someone will correct them, its as simple as that. Like i said earlier if everyone knew everything about the celica there would be absolutely no point for the forums. I hope this causes no controversy it is just my opinion on the topic and if you dont like it pay no attention to it.

There isn't any real way a person's whole experience can be seriously translated on paper. If it were possible, we wouldn't see all of these topics about the 3SGTE "bolting up" or "Dropping in"... because that's not even 1/2 of the swap process. The purpose of asking questions and people's experience is merely to prepare oneself. It gives you an idea of what to expect... but unless you swap engines for a living... ala dr. tweak... you cannot fully prepare yourself.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

if you want to debate it more we can use PM or IM, the topic isnt really about debating if the forum will change or not, debating it wont help one way or the other.

I'm not trying to debate for people to change. I'm saying for some people in this forum to change the way they look for the answers to their questions. If they do research, they'll become more educated. When more people become more educated, the likelihood of false information will decrease. Which is what you're fighting for to do.

[boosted_K2]

ok cool, i must have misunderstood what exactly you were getting at with what you were saying. anyway this topic seems to be kinda heading toward a good discussion. continue

[airfron]

instead of making a new post to find information on a subject i am looking for (since every modification i have thought of doing has most definitely been done time and time again by others) i use the search feature and when i see s post where someone has asked a question where i know there is another topic on the same question i will most likely post a link to that original post where i located the information

if everyone wouldto be willing to take the initiative and use the search function properly and educate themselves i think a large majority of the uneducated posts and actually a large amount of topics posted would diminish greatly

i feel as if something else that is causing a distress to the community is those who intentionally flame people for answering a question with a response that they do not agree with, or an opinion stated by an individual on the topic. insults cause people who actually might be able to help to not want to post for fear of getting their post torn apart even though they might lead to the same end result. this is a forum as GT04 stated earlier.. and we should be able to act like mature people and respect other people's opinions without bashing them

sorry i feel like i'm ranting.. disregard my statements if you disagree with them

[malpaso]

Here is my point of view:

1. "I am not saying I know everything" ...amen
There are just two groups of answers. "IMHO" answers and "advice" answers. When I know something for sure (because I'm good at it), it's (IMHO) "duty" help other people who just don't know. I belive it's right help each other in one community of people with same interest... We all heve our celicas and we all want just the best for it, am I right? And if I'm not sure about anything, it's not wrong at least write opinion... (else why English has words like "I belive", "I think", "In my point of view", etc.???).

2. "posting incorrect information" thing
My aim is all people here will think like: "Malpaso wrote it, it's good advice" or "Malpaso wrote it, he know what he doing". You know what I'm talking about? It's called reputation. And I will not do anything what should harm that... It's somethong like personal pride. Even if internet forums are "faceless" there still is (in my opinion ) some kind of identity and that identity has own value.

3. "WHY you are doing a certain modification" part
Here I don't understand if it's general question or it's something factual. However I have made some (a lot ) external modification on my celica because I love SS-III celica type. I will never have real one, now I know that... so I want make my ST leastwise look like SS-III celica... I have made also some non-SS-III interior modifications... Why? I want my celi looks unique. You can belive me there is no other celica with same look like mine . That's all

[boosted_K2]

responding to malpaso's #3

what i'm getting at really doesnt partain to exterior or styling modifications because those are done for show and everyone has their own style and personality... what im talking about is performance modifications and understanding why and how they are helping your performance.