Roll Cage, Going to do it this spring Options

[jcbass7]

So my pal (fellow Coastie) was showing me some pictures from home(Washington state) and i stumbled upon pics of his jeep. well he explained to me that the 5 pt. roll cage on his jeep, he made by himself, bending welding etc. I was extremely impressed by his work and we got talking about it and we are going to put in a cage in my car. Something similiar to Tufy's but i am not totally sure of what i want in the end. Definatly want to stiffen up the REAR of the hatch. My coupe was a lot less flexible in the back and i am looking forward to some serious support back there. i want to keep the cage somewhat tame though, as i want to build custom fiberglass enclosures after i have the cage installed.

The plan is to build something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...em=330074638465

i also want it to be removable, with little to no permanent welds into the car. but if we can't avoid it then oh well

any one have any comments, questions, concerns?


EDIT: ps this is not incase i roll over, its purely for chasis rigidity and a little bit athstetics

This post has been edited by jcbass7: Jan 16, 2007 - 10:24 PM

[playr158]

roll cages should ONLY be installed in a car that you intend to wear a HELMET in 24/7

if you don't severe injury/death could occure in the event of an accident

and no i'm not kidding

[jcbass7]

please elaborate, I need all the pros and cons before i go start something.

[lagos]

sounds like a cool plan. the only down side i see is that you will loose a lot of storage space in the car, with the cage in there. it might be great if its a weekend car, but if you daily drive it, it might not be worth the hassle.

[uberschall]

you should look into underbody braces and triangulate the rear. cages increase rigidity, track safety, and are really cool looking and all, but i have to agree with playr....not for a daily car.

they decrease visibility, definately add weight, and are NOT safe if you're not wearing a hemet. hitting your head on the upper window sill in an accident would be bad enough, imagine hitting a steel pipe instead.

if it's not for rollover protection (read: sanctioned racing that requires a rollcage) then you should explore your other options for stiffening the chassis.

you have a nice ride.....keep up the good work, btw.

[playr158]

your head will hit one of the pipes and all sorts of bad things will happen....its a downgrade for YOUR safty

alternatives:
a rear strut brace will have a very large effect on stiffening up your rear end and improve overall handling.
rear sway bar will further reduce body roll and stiffen up the rear as well

strut bar, sway bars, shocks
are the 3 first things i would do in that order in order to achieve stiff rear

[x_itchy_b_x]

this is to crazy your doing a cage too.
my dad is funny and he wants to cage it, hes all about safety. im down.

eventually i plan to by a cage for a civic the kit things and just re-work it a bit.

[playr158]

why not just import CUSCO :eeps:

[jcbass7]

I have shocks and struts going in this weekend and sway bars are on their way. I dont want to go spend 250 on a j-speed rear three point to add a little rigidity. what if i built a cage that didn't really come in front of the driver? I will be putting in a set of nice seats (sparco, recaro etc.) and i need a bar directly behind them to have the seat belt harness attach to. That is a big part of why i want to do this.

I still want to push the pro's and cons.

lets just focus on the rear for now then. what if i built that cage but stopped it behind the seats?

Also I have no need for storage space, and i am only allowed to use this car on weekends anyway.. and thats how it will be until i graduate from the academy.. This is a daily driver but not in the same sense.
Besides, when i hit my junior year at the Academy we get a low interest (less than 1%) loan for 30k. I will use that to buy my daily driver. But i always plan on keeping this as a fun car so later on in life it won't need to be practical at all if i have something else to drive

[jcbass7]

EDIT: Ok here are a couple more things just bouncing around in my head. I really can only drive this car until July second of this year and then it won't really get driven much until 2010-2011. Granted inbetween i may drive it some but will rarely have chances so it will most definatly be off the road.

That gives me another couple months where i am still only driving weekends (can't leave base during the week).

I am not to sure what my ultimate plans are for the car but i want it to be a toy that i will have later in life since i have no plans on letting her go. I am alll about the street legal beast that is sso impractical its stupid. like a roll cage So before long this car is going to be second to some daily driver and might not matter too much.. on getting me places with all my gear etc. It will become more of a fun car..

I think i need to find an outlet for power... I'm not a drag guy.. and I would LOVE to rally, but i don't want to build a beautiful car in the end and then destroy it in the dirt. I want to keep the car on the street and i want it to be something thats not easy to compete with in that aspect. maybe autocross is my answer??


but back to the roll cage: Itchy, whats one of those civic ones cost?

What about building one like this style, where it REALLY focuses on the back
ROLL CAGE

[x_itchy_b_x]

theres a track in CT called lime rock thats a le'mans style track i want to try and be come a member there for racing. ive seen civic weld your own cage go for only a couple hundred or less. but that website you posted looks good too. I wouldn't mind no having to do a bunch of work and just bolt it in.

http://www.ner.org/index.htm <-- become a member of local club that gets track time. just starting to do research in this are. id love to be a driver.

This post has been edited by x_itchy_b_x: Jan 17, 2007 - 9:44 AM

[doGGy]

First of all - good rollcage are made out of the tubes what are pulled type (they dont have any welds on the side, are not rolled from sheet metal and etc.) This is the MAIN factor when building rollcage. Cuz if you gonna go with some ****ty matterial - it might in the end crack / bend / or even go out of the welds and hit you through your body and etc. So if you gonna do it - do it right - cuz i would drive my car without cage better when with somthing DIY what could make the crash even worse.

If you want Cage - Cusco cage is the way to go - simple, yet good. + it is good to use for a daily driver.

Another thing what is really really important when building cage - is the weld its self. It has to be welded by pro.

BTW - the link you posted - the cage is made by OMP - who doesnt know - its a company what ussualy build stuff for rally cars, and most of the products they sell are good for Homologation. OMP is very well known in EU.

[jcbass7]

Itchy that track looks awesome, i will need to definatly look into that more. Especially since i will be in New London for the next four years.

One of the biggest reasons i want to do a cage is because its an upgrade that if done by myself and my friend, it will be fun to do and somewhat inexpensive. The whole point is to not go buy a cusco etc. If i had the money to do that i would DEFINATLY spend it in other ways on the car right now...

but lets keep prying at this. if i opt to not do a cage then what can i do to mount seatbelts for racing seats? I need them mounted on a bar directly behind the seats at the correct height.

[jcbass7]

I think i found my outlet ROAD RALLY

http://www.ner.org/rally/rdral/07/index.htm

[playr158]

a) buy a GT4 rear strut bar it cost like less then $100
and if you know somone who can do a cage they SHOULD beable to make one in their sleep

b) a harness bar doesn't need a cage just go look at sparco's website, fabricating one of these is pretty easy
it MUST NOT exceed 30 degrees below shoulders

c) even if the cage doesn't come infront of you the main hoop plus it's cross bar can come forward and hit or other various options....

and no offense to itchy, i know he's a smart guy,
but trying to fit a civic cage in a celica is retarded. Roll cages arn't like intakes they must be fit to the car exactly and not "universal" cause there is no such thing...

This post has been edited by playr158: Jan 17, 2007 - 3:28 PM

[jcbass7]

A) I have that already
B) The cage isnt just for that, but that was an added bonus of doing one
C)True, a risk i would have to decide on

And i don't think itchy meant he wanted to buy a civic cage that would "bolt in" i think he more or less was aiming at the idea of finding something similiar and using parts from it

This is good though, this thread is helping me gather opinions. I could always make a seat harness bar and then make a custom 3pt rear strut bar

[x_itchy_b_x]

a) buy a GT4 rear strut bar it cost like less then $100
and if you know somone who can do a cage they SHOULD beable to make one in their sleep

b) a harness bar doesn't need a cage just go look at sparco's website, fabricating one of these is pretty easy
it MUST NOT exceed 30 degrees below shoulders

c) even if the cage doesn't come infront of you the main hoop plus it's cross bar can come forward and hit or other various options....

and no offense to itchy, i know he's a smart guy,
but trying to fit a civic cage in a celica is retarded. Roll cages arn't like intakes they must be fit to the car exactly and not "universal" cause there is no such thing...

haha i hear what your saying, but how long have hot roders made roll cages for their cars. IE: my dad with numerous cars. all im really buying is the pipe with certain bends. then i hack the crap out of them and make it work on a budget. i wouldnt advise the normal DIY to do it. but im comfortable with my dad doing it only because hes done insane things with cars over his life. and i plan to have all my pipe covered in foam like what covers little kids handle bars on bikes. sorta.

[jcbass7]

haha i hear what your saying, but how long have hot roders made roll cages for their cars. IE: my dad with numerous cars. all im really buying is the pipe with certain bends. then i hack the crap out of them and make it work on a budget. i wouldnt advise the normal DIY to do it. but im comfortable with my dad doing it only because hes done insane things with cars over his life. and i plan to have all my pipe covered in foam like what covers little kids handle bars on bikes. sorta.

Same goes for my friend, i am comfortable having him do it and teach me, since i have seen his work and he used to do it for a job

[playr158]

a) buy a GT4 rear strut bar it cost like less then $100
and if you know somone who can do a cage they SHOULD beable to make one in their sleep

b) a harness bar doesn't need a cage just go look at sparco's website, fabricating one of these is pretty easy
it MUST NOT exceed 30 degrees below shoulders

c) even if the cage doesn't come infront of you the main hoop plus it's cross bar can come forward and hit or other various options....

and no offense to itchy, i know he's a smart guy,
but trying to fit a civic cage in a celica is retarded. Roll cages arn't like intakes they must be fit to the car exactly and not "universal" cause there is no such thing...

haha i hear what your saying, but how long have hot roders made roll cages for their cars. IE: my dad with numerous cars. all im really buying is the pipe with certain bends. then i hack the crap out of them and make it work on a budget. i wouldnt advise the normal DIY to do it. but im comfortable with my dad doing it only because hes done insane things with cars over his life. and i plan to have all my pipe covered in foam like what covers little kids handle bars on bikes. sorta.

word, glad you got it the way i ment it
woot for foam!!!

[jcbass7]

So i was just talking to the girl across the hall, someone ive never really gotten to know in the 6 months ive been here, but it turns out she is certified in mig, tig and arc welding. She used to build cattle trailers in high school and she won a competition or something for one she fabricated herself..

I think I need to recruit her talents! She could weld me a cage in no time

[Kwanza26]

Roll cages are all about the design and welding. Most of the DIY cage builders do it WRONG.

Ask yourself... WHY?

[jcbass7]

ok here is my question. how will i ever learn or get better at anything if i don't go for it and give it a try?

EDIT: my point being every ambitious idea i have is always shut down by somebody. Such as my swap, a lot of people told me I couldn't or shouldn't and its done now and couldn't be happier. I am glad people are showing me the negatives to the idea, but on the other hand this car is a huge learning experience that i would love to continue with.

By no means would this cage be designed for Roll over safety, but to improve handling, provide a unique look, teach me a bit in the process and allow me to continue to be ambitious.. The only reasons i would abandon the idea is if it were decided that it would be a major safety concern.

This post has been edited by jcbass7: Jan 18, 2007 - 9:25 AM

[Culpable04]

ok here is my question. how will i ever learn or get better at anything if i don't go for it and give it a try?

EDIT: my point being every ambitious idea i have is always shut down by somebody. Such as my swap, a lot of people told me I couldn't or shouldn't and its done now and couldn't be happier. I am glad people are showing me the negatives to the idea, but on the other hand this car is a huge learning experience that i would love to continue with.

By no means would this cage be designed for Roll over safety, but to improve handling, provide a unique look, teach me a bit in the process and allow me to continue to be ambitious.. The only reasons i would abandon the idea is if it were decided that it would be a major safety concern.

there is a little contradiccion on your idea, the roll cage are named ROLL cage for a reason, the improvement on handling is a side effect of it but no the actual intention when they were originally desing.

There are other upgrades on the market for handling improvements that you can get ideas from and build something for you; as you I love to learn and adventure with new things but there are some mistakes that unfortunatly can be done just once, you swapped your own engine but if for some reason you did it wrong you have chance to redo it, in a case of a roll cage if it fails during an accident you can get hurt in such way that you won't be able to do it again, don't abadon the idea but take some baby steps first. I know a member here who built a J-speed 3 point rear strut bar, and was excellent and I bet it was really cheap, just to give you an idea.

[hurley97]

doo it Jesse doo it

[playr158]

Roll cages are all about the design and welding. Most of the DIY cage builders do it WRONG.

Ask yourself... WHY?

please listen to him ^^^^

[x_itchy_b_x]

thats a cusco for our cars ^ looks hard to replicate it will take time and trial and error for sure though.

taking proper measurements getting the right bends is crucial as are the welds and material used.
but it really isnt rocket science.

http://rallynuts.com/motorsport/ROLL%5FCAG...ta_NEW_3409.asp

[jcbass7]

Thank you for all the advice and imput so far, it is definatly helping

For me i just see it as why would i spend a lot of time or money, buying or building a 3pt. rear, and then underbody braces, and then a harness bar and then a trunk bar etc. et.c when i could kill one bird with one stone.

Also when you say that its dangerous to have, If i roll over without one... or if i roll over with one..... wouldn't with one be the better choice? I understand if i did it horribly wrong then it could be a hazard. but the guy i have helping made them with his dad and his dad used to do them for cars etc.

I am going to custom fab atleast a 3pt rear and the harness bar. I just see it as more of a hassle to do a lot of little peices when i could do the large one.

[hitcachi]

That would suck ass to try and replicate. If Dan "Teh custom fab master" is saying not to do it then its probably not possible! J/k. But the time that it would take you, would be better spent at a job, where you could save the money to buy the cusco one.

[jcbass7]

For the record i dont want a full cage. I basically want everything from the seats back. To stiffen the rear and mount a 5pt harness

[jcbass7]

on handling is a side effect of it but no the actual intention when they were originally desing.

There are other upgrades on the market for handling improvements that you can get ideas from and build something for you; as you I love to learn and adventure with new things but there are some mistakes that unfortunatly can be done just once, you swapped your own engine but if for some reason you did it wrong you have chance to redo it, in a case of a roll cage if it fails during an accident you can get hurt in such way that you won't be able to do it again, don't abadon the idea but take some baby steps first. I know a member here who built a J-speed 3 point rear strut bar, and was excellent and I bet it was really cheap, just to give you an idea.

I understand what you are saying, and i agree safety is paramount. lets exlpore the other options of suspension for a second. what can i do other than a 3pt in to improve suspension and traction? the gt-four rear bar does nothing for me. my stock coupe was way more stable

[presure2]

IDK, jesse...IMO building ANY type of roll cage is NOT a place you wanna be experimenting and learning at all.
IMO its really not worth the risk, besides the fact that its not gonna stiffen the car as much as the other stuff people here are talking about.

[playr158]

my hatch w/coilovers and a gt4 rear bar could oversteer
and purplegt4 has TEIN SS w/sways and his car is tight as a virgin

roll cages really arn't ment for "stiffening" of the rear...you just need to work on your suspension setup better

This post has been edited by playr158: Jan 18, 2007 - 5:25 PM

[dagreat1]

i'm in the navy rotc my self i plan on making use of that loan next year

[jcbass7]

IDK, jesse...IMO building ANY type of roll cage is NOT a place you wanna be experimenting and learning at all.
IMO its really not worth the risk, besides the fact that its not gonna stiffen the car as much as the other stuff people here are talking about.

wouldn't be expirimenting, since i have someone who used to do it for a job with his father helping, but i am starting to look at the points people are making about it not stiffening as much as i want it to

my hatch w/coilovers and a gt4 rear bar could oversteer
and purplegt4 has TEIN SS w/sways and his car is tight as a virgin

roll cages really arn't ment for "stiffening" of the rear...you just need to work on your suspension setup better

Ok so say i build a 3pt front and a 3pt rear, what other custom peices could we fabricate to help out with handling?

Also, what should i do for a harness bar then? Just weld a cross member between the B-pillars?


once again i want to thank everyone who has offered input, it is definatly helping me form my opinion on everything.

PS: these are my current susp mods and future plans

gt4 rear bar
stock front bar
kyb gr2's in the mail right now
tien s-techs waiting for kyb's

I can't afford Tien SS coilovers

and susp tech sways are coming next paycheck


If i drop the cage idea:
3pt custom rear strut
3pt custom front strut

^ what else.. i could do side tower braces

[jcbass7]

i'm in the navy rotc my self i plan on making use of that loan next year

are you enlisting or going to the academy? I'll be at the coast guard academy next year and all of my class mates (except for us 22 coasties) will be at annapolis


EDIT: read your profile, got it mixed with jrotc for a second, how is ROTC treating you?

This post has been edited by jcbass7: Jan 18, 2007 - 5:49 PM