What to torque it to?, 6 hexhead inner cv bolts Options

[6gsillyca]

EDIT:

Can someone please tell me what the 6 hexhead bolts should be torqued to? My manual lists:

hub nut - 137 ft-lbs
driveaxle inner cv joint-to-differential side gear shaft flange - 27 ft-lbs
right driveaxle centre bearing bracket bolts - 47

None of these seem correct, but since my axles are *non-stock* I'm not sure what the technical part term would be for them.

END EDIT




I need to replace my outer cv boot. I was looking into getting a new axle shaft, because I have read it is easier to RnR the whole axle rather than individual parts (axle, cv joint, cv boot etc). Then you also shouldn't need to worry about any damage to your joint because of the craked boot.

I need to know what parts to order though. Cv boot is on the front pass wheel. Would the axle half come with both inners and outers, and then would I need to RnR the inner with the e153 inner from my current set-up?

Would someone be able to explain what the inner and outer axles are, and how/where the inner attaches to the outer?

Here is a link to my thread in another sextion, but I thought the boosted guys might know the e153/st185 axles a bit better.
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=57022

This post has been edited by 6gsillyca: Apr 15, 2008 - 12:42 AM

[phattyduck]

Rebuilt ST185 front axles come as just the outers (same with Camry V6 and all other E-series axles). You will unbolt the inner and outer section. The "outers" includes both CV joints but not the stub that goes into the transmission. If you have a spacer setup or anything special with your inners, they stay on the car so you don't have to worry about that.

-Charlie

[6gsillyca]

So a st185 axle will come with both inners and outers assembled together from napa?

Do I just need to unbolt where the 6 cap head bolts are? Or is there another part after the inner cv joint that comes apart(before the 6 bolt piece)? I'm not 100% sure where the inner/outers connect, what stays and what gets replaced...

All I would need is a passengers side st185 rebuilt axle, and I should get everything I need? Or would I need the drivers side st185 axle?

Would I need any e153 components?

This post has been edited by 6gsillyca: Mar 24, 2008 - 7:23 PM

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Yes, all you need to do is unbolt the six 8mm recessed hex bolts from the transmission side, and undo the 30mm axle nut and you'll have the axle ready to remove.

From there, undo the two 17mm nuts and one 17mm bolt that fasten the ball joint to the A-arms and you can swing the whole hub away just enough to work the axle out from the hub splines and seperate the outer axle assembly from the inner axle stub. You don't have to take out the stub, that stays in the transmission.


But definately get just an entirely new outer axle and bolt it in. Its a quick job and most auto stores charge about $75 for a new one with a core trade in.



Good luck.

[6gsillyca]

Yes, all you need to do is unbolt the six 8mm recessed hex bolts from the transmission side, and undo the 30mm axle nut and you'll have the axle ready to remove.

From there, undo the two 17mm nuts and one 17mm bolt that fasten the ball joint to the A-arms and you can swing the whole hub away just enough to work the axle out from the hub splines and seperate the outer axle assembly from the inner axle stub. You don't have to take out the stub, that stays in the transmission.


But definately get just an entirely new outer axle and bolt it in. Its a quick job and most auto stores charge about $75 for a new one with a core trade in.



Good luck.

Thank you, that is exactly the sort of how to write up I was looking for.


EDIT:
Would it matter what year st185 I order for? The tranny and inner axles are 93 e153 w/ oem lsd. Would I need to get a 93 to match, or does it matter?

This post has been edited by 6gsillyca: Mar 24, 2008 - 9:40 PM

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Nope, it doesn't matter.

Any Celica All-Trac outer between 1990-1993 will work just fine, as well as 1988-1991 Camry V6. They share identical outer axles and the same part numbers at stores like Autozone, Advance Auto, and NAPA. If you have ABS that you want to keep, you'll want to get an outer axle for either car with ABS teeth on it.


The only part that is crucial to match up when you're using LSD is getting a corresponding inner axle from whatever year LSD transmission you're using. Outers are interchangable between LSD and non-LSD, no problems.

[6gsillyca]

Ok thanks. I knew there were differences between the inners (lsd, non lsd, abs, non abs, 90-92, 93+) so I wasn'y sure if I needed to match the outers some how.

Thanks 6gc!

Corey.

[phattyduck]

Just so you are clear, the 'inner' axles are the part that actually goes into the transmission. It is just a solid stub. The 'outer' axles is the rest of it, where it goes into the hub, the outer CV, the axle and the inner CV. The inners and outers bolt together with those 6 hex-head bolts. Watch out when you unbolt them so you don't drop grease all over the place.

The left and right outer axles are the same for the ST185 and early Camry V6. The only thing you have to worry about is ABS or non-ABS (and ABS axles work in a non-ABS car, just not the other way around).

-Charlie

[6gsillyca]

Can someone confirm for me if st185 had the option of abs, or were they all abs equipped? Because the st185 was "top of the line" it should have almost all of the options included already.

Out of the 4 places I called looking for an axle only 1 place asked if I had abs. When I asked the other 3 if they needed to know, they replied that there was no option to choose abs or non abs, which leads me to believe that abs was standard on st185's and all of them *should* be abs axles...Is that correct, or was there an option for abs or not?

[6gsillyca]

Will I need to repack the inner/outer/spacer section with axle grease, or just put the pieces together, in the order they are in now, and rebolt them together?

[phattyduck]

Will I need to repack the inner/outer/spacer section with axle grease, or just put the pieces together, in the order they are in now, and rebolt them together?

You will need to repack the inner CV with grease. It should be included with the axle that you receive.

-Charlie

[scothaniel]

Yes, there are ABS and non-ABS alltrac axles.

[alltracman78]

Yes, there are ABS and non-ABS alltrac axles.

100% correct.
Same goes for the Camry axles.
However, I don't know if you can even find non ABS axles [doesn't matter directly to you, just for general FYI].
ABS axles will work fine on a non ABS car, so it's cheaper to just make one type.

If you get a whole axle it should already have the inner joint greased, but I guess some companies might not do that, all depends who you go through.

You will need a gasket for the joint however [unless the hybrid joints don't use one, but I would guess they do, or else you'll be leaking grease], it's a cork gasket that is sticky on one side, order it for an Alltrac axle.

Also just for general info, ithe pre and post revision Alltracs [90/91 vs 92/93] have DIFFERENT axles, and the drivers and passengers is different also.
The axles are interchangeable, the only difference is the groove for the outer boot on the outer joint.
A post revision boot wont' fit on a pre revision joint, but a pre revision boot will fit on a post revision joint IIRC.

The passenger side axle has a rubber vibration dampener on it, the drivers side doesn't have this.
Aftermarket axles might not have this distinction.
Either axle will bolt to either side, it just effects the Alltrac as far as smoothness, it shouldn't effect FWD. FWD has a longer pass side, while the Alltrac doesn't.

[6gsillyca]

So I was able to get out and have a look to see what the damage was, and it looks like my outer boot has got a few cracks in it. I also found cracks in my inner boot, so I guess I'll try and return my outer replacement boot and get the whole axle instead.

Do I need to disconnect the sway bar from the lower control arm? Are the "boots" for the bolts that connect the sway bar to the lower control arm sealed? I tried to loosen them, but when I did I heard a "pop" and a little bit of grease leaked out. The bolt just free spins and I do't know how to remove it or if I even need to take it off. Should I worry about the boot having a hole now?

Can someone else confirm the hex head bolt size for me? Silver94 mentioned they are 8mm hex keys, but I would just like a double check before I go buy a 8mm and find its the wrong size...

Your hex keys may or may not be 8 mm. Mine are 10mm.

This post has been edited by 6gsillyca: Apr 7, 2008 - 10:33 PM

[6gsillyca]

Do I need to tuorqe these when I tighten them? How do I tourqe hex keys? Is there any way I can attach these to an impact gun (to loosen)?

[6gsillyca]

Is my axle supposed to have the 3 "ridges" or is that part of my spacer and I need to seperate them? If the spacer is still on attached to the inner stub, then which ring would it be? While everything is apart, does anyone want more/detailed pics of my spacer set-up? Jay had a thread a while back but only had pics of the assembled pirce.

To re-install my new axle, does the hub or inner cv part go in first? I took the 3 17mm bolts off my a arm/ball joint, but wasn't able to get the tierod (I think thats what it is) or my sway bars off the a arm, so I can't really move the hub. I got my old one out by doing a lot of wiggling...












This post has been edited by 6gsillyca: Apr 8, 2008 - 11:52 AM

[6gsillyca]

bump for torque spec

[alltracman78]

48 lb/ft
Make SURE you use BLUE thread lock too. These bolts LOVE to loosen.
It's easiest to tighten with an impact or air wrench.

Attach the inner joint first.
Are the stock bolts long enough? They look too short? :shrug:

You're supposed to have a cork gasket there to seal the grease in. Otherwise it likes to leak out.

To get the tie rod out you need to remove the cotter pin and nut first, then bang the side of the knuckle where it sits until it pops out.

Make sure you tighten the wheel nut good, if you don't you can damage the wheel bearing.

[alltracman78]

Go to this thread, it explains how to get the tie rod out.
DON'T use his example, scroll down to my post, he used the wrong [can damage the tie rod joint] way.

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...&hl=tie+rod

[6gsillyca]

It came with a cork gasket already installed. Will do on the loctite.

I ended up not needing to get the tie-rod end off, but I had previously read your method of hitting the side, and that did not work. Do you need to really hit it good?

Also, when I packed the axle grease, I put most of it inside the "cup". When I turn the wheel, it doesn't turn smoothly. It has lumpy spots.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Yea its an 8mm Hex, and I'll bet money on it. Haha.


Make sure you use a good quality Moly grease, and work it into those axle bearings!! I usually just pack it right in as best I can into the bearing race, the retaining basket for the bearings, and the rubber boot.

You want as much of the grease in that area of the axle to avoid metal on metal contact, allowing it to move freely under load. Like Jeremy said, be sure to seal the surface when you bolt it up with the gasket and some thread lock to avoid making a mess or havng the bolts back themselves out from the vibrations in the drivetrain.

I only ever use hand tools on the axle so that I can feel that its threading properly. Then I torque the six bolts down to around 40-45 ft/lbs on both sides, making sure theres even torque all the way around.




In a side note though, you shouldn't need to pop out the outer tie-rod from the hub at all. When the three 17mm bolts that secure the lower ball joint are removed, you can pull the whole strut assembly upwards and out of the suspension A-arms. Theres enough pivot there to remove the axle from the hub, no problems.

If you did have to remove the tie-rod from the hub, you would remove the pin and remove the castle nut from the bottom and then use a ball joint popper or Pitman joint puller. Sort of like this:

Pitman Joint puller-



3-jaw puller-




The jaws of the puller will sit right on the hub/steering knuckle, and you can push right against the threaded portion on the bottom of the joint. This way you aren't beating up on the tie-rod end at all, it will just pop right out of the steering knuckle with minimal effort instead.

I picked up a Pitman joint puller (like the one in the first pic) from NAPA to seperate my tie-rods, and it worked like a charm.





6gsillyca, are you using some sort of spacer setup on that side?



-Corey

This post has been edited by Silver94CelicaOwner: Apr 21, 2008 - 5:19 PM

[6gsillyca]

Thanks for all the info and pics. I was going to get a puller as a last resort, but ended up not needing to remove the tie-rod end. I was able to get it out by removing just the 3 control arm nuts, but I did take off the sway bar endlink.


A good tip for using a puller though, is to keep the castle nut on the end of the tie-rod stud to avoid injury in the case of violent seperation. BTW does the castle nut get tq to spec? Because of the way the nut is designed I don't think I can tq it and still get the cotter pin in, due to the castle part covering the pin hole.


I packed the inner joint as good as I could, but because it came sealed with a zip-tie, I wasn't able to really pack it in. I put as much as I could into the joint, and the rest I stuffed into the inner "cup". I just used the bag of grease that came with the axle...Should I get some more axle grease and try and pack a bit more into the inner joint? I'm worried about the races/bearings falling out if I take the axle out again though...Will I be able to work the grease into the joint by turning the axle by hand back and forth? Or if I jacked the front of the car up and "drove" at a low speed? That way there would be no load on the axle, and the grease could get properly set.


I will have to get some blue loctite and RnR the bolts. I only had them tightened for now (until I could find the tq spec). BTW I do have 10mm hexhead not 8mm, so the money you were willing to put down...I accept paypal j/k


As for the spacer, yes I do believe so. This is Jays old car, but when I removed the axle, I was expecting a third "spacer" piece to come out after the 6 hex bolts were out, but it seemed to all be connected w/o the hexbolts. I posted a pic on the last page of what was left of my inner stub.
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...p;hl=short+axle


BTW nice name. lol, even had the "e"

Corey.

This post has been edited by 6gsillyca: Apr 19, 2008 - 12:10 PM

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

The stock CV bolts are 8mm.


I didn't even realize that was Jay's old car....in that case, it has spacers on the axles so you're good there.

I think as long as you applied as much grease as you could, you'll be just fine. No worries there. Just get those babies torqued down and you'll be all set.



-Corey

[alltracman78]

Alltrac axle bolts are 10mm, not 8mm.
I can't say for the MR2, though I would guess they're the same....


If you got the axle in/out without removing the tie rod, all the better.

However, the quickest and easiest way [on a Celica] is to hit it where I showed you. You do have to hit it really hard, but it will pop out. I've never had one that wouldn't.
A puller will work too, especially if you don't have space to swing a hammer. I forget sometimes that you guys don't have the car on a lift.
It's called a Pitman arm puller, not Pullman, though.

If the joint won't turn smoothly, you most likely have the joint discombobulated. It doesn't need grease to turn smoothly by hand [though you obviously need the right amount for driving], and that joint is VERY easy to knock out of wack when it's not on the car.
Unfortunately it's a bit of PITA to get right if it is screwed up.
But you NEED to deal with it now, or else you'll need a new axle.

Torque the castle nut to spec and then however much of a turn is needed to install the cotter pin.

[6gsillyca]

When I got the axle it came with a zip-tie running through the cv joint holding everything in place. The instructions said to bolt 2 bolts up and the cut the zip-tie. It turns ok, its not difficult to turn, it just seems to have a bit of a rough spot. I'm thinking maybe that area isn't greased as good as the others and I just need to work the grease in.

Because I clipped the tie holding it in place after I installed it, I don't see how it could have gotten discombobulated...How should I remove the axle to try and fix it?

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Pitman arm! Right. Thats the one...thanks Jeremy.

I think as long as you worked the grease into the bearings as best your could, and then torque everything to spec it will be just fine. When you drive the car, the grease will work its way into all the other areas of the axle so I wouldn't worry about it too much.




So sice you guys planted the seed of doubt in my mind regarding the axle bolts, I went to go check out the ones from my MR2 axle and my Camry axle and the ones that were on my Celica now. Mine are all 8mm. You'd think Toyota would stick to a size, but apparently not! Pretty strange if you ask me...







Sorry about the condition of the bolts, those were impacted off because I didn't need them. haha. I'd also like to point out that those photos were taken on the trunk of project Beater Corolla, which currently resides in my garage all put back together.



-Corey

This post has been edited by Silver94CelicaOwner: Apr 21, 2008 - 5:17 PM

[6gsillyca]

Are those bolts normal length? The ones I took off were almost 2x in length as those. Keep in mind I do have a spacer, so I most likely do not have the factory toyota bolts, and that could explain my 10mm hexhead.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Yeah those are the stock bolts from an MR2 Turbo. The ones from the Camry/ES250 axles were identical as well. They are quite a bit shorter than the extended bolts that we have to buy for our setups with spacers. I think the ones I bought to use with my spacers were another 3/4" longer than the stock ones if I recall correctly.


Just goes to show how short the axles are without a spacer to compensate for the added wheelbase of the Celica.



-Corey

[alltracman78]

I owe you an apology, the Alltrac bolts are also 8MM, not 10 like I said.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

It's all good man, no worries.


6gsillyca, how did everything turn out in the end?? Any problems?





-Corey

[6gsillyca]

Well the last few weeks have been really sh!tty weather (record snowfall of almost 2') so the status right now is the bolts are in, improperly torqued, and no threadlock on yet.

Hopefully this weekend I will be able to grab a tube of threadlock and torque them down, but won't be able to comment on the driveability until probably June. The engine is currently in about 50 pieces spread through my house, and I'm currently waiting on parts from powercoating (3-4 week turnaround).