Completed: Suspension issue, Page 3 finished update / Tons of pics Options

[snapshotgt]

lowering setup:

1.) tein lowering springs (new)
2.) bilstein struts (new)

Wheels:

7th gen gts with 205/55/16 tires

Issue(s):

My crossmember is a non-factory to work with the V6, and i'm worried about hitting it too much. The V6 weighs about 75-100 lbs more than the stock 5sfe, and less than the 3s. The "extra" weight could be causing it to be lower (more than what tein calls for) but it seems that 74-100 lbs would not be much. Before anyone asks, yes - these are legit teins. They really seemed to have slammed the car instead of the 1.4" in the fount. I've been looking at bump stops, and thinking they might help. As you can imagine when i'm driving 60 and hit a pot hole or big bump it can be bad.


Pictures to explain (how do they compare to your tein lowering? - if you have them):

Front drivers side:



two fingers (front):



Rear drivers side:



three fingers (rear):



pass side front:



pass rear:



crossmember:




side view:



Here is a short video of going over a speed bump. Watch the WHOLE thing so you can see the bounce in the 2nd pass. I made the pass by putting my crossmember in the center where there is a small gap in the bump. You can imagine at higher speeds...

[Defgeph]

Are you sure you purchased the real spring and not knockoffs.

[GotToyota]

Wow, that's unusually bouncy. I'd say they're either fakes, or the extra weight and crossmember are affecting the springs.

-Matt

This post has been edited by GotToyota: Jun 1, 2008 - 10:05 PM

[azian_advanced]

that crossmember looks really low, that could be your main problem.
the ride height of your teins looks normal to me even with the extra weight of the motor, in fact i think mine was lower.

[snapshotgt]

Are you sure you purchased the real spring and not knockoffs.

According to the tein counterfeit info, i looked and see the "authentic" writing on mine...

[Batman722]

nice run to the car

yes the crossmember is too low. Not much you can do about it though...

Now, that is waaaaaay too bouncy. Maybe the blistens are more of a "comfort" strut which would make it bouncy ? IDK. If I were to see that on any other car my first gut reaction is that the struts are blown/worn. The back clearly doesn't bounce as much as the front.

I've heard that the monroe struts are a bit stiffer, I think Jeff has them, and me and Stef both have KYBs. Jeff's car is rock solid from what I remember.

My .02, the struts are bad.

[snapshotgt]

nice run to the car

yes the crossmember is too low. Not much you can do about it though...

Now, that is waaaaaay too bouncy. Maybe the blistens are more of a "comfort" strut which would make it bouncy ? IDK. If I were to see that on any other car my first gut reaction is that the struts are blown/worn. The back clearly doesn't bounce as much as the front.

I've heard that the monroe struts are a bit stiffer, I think Jeff has them, and me and Stef both have KYBs. Jeff's car is rock solid from what I remember.

My .02, the struts are bad.

The struts are new so that does not make sense. Bilstein struts are "supposed to be" a step up from KYBs in that they're more stiff/sporty and cost more money. I do agree that the rear is fine. The rears came as one piece and the fronts were inserts. They were installed by "you know who." But there is not much to mess up in installing inserts... Um, maybe one bolt?

[Defgeph]

Maybe you still have stock inserts in the front. It seems way to bouncy, my setup is solid as a rock. I also have sway bars so that could stiffen things up a bit.

It just seems way to bouncy to me.

[snapshotgt]

Maybe you still have stock inserts in the front. It seems way to bouncy, my setup is solid as a rock. I also have sway bars so that could stiffen things up a bit.

It just seems way to bouncy to me.

Yeah, i'm shocked how bouncy it is. I have sus tech sway bars as well with strut braces and racing suspension links etc. This thing should be solid, not a bouncy ball.

[808celica]

hmmm this is really weird. cuz i have almost blown shocks and they look like yours going over bumps.........so do you have bump stops on???

[snapshotgt]

Here were some old pictures i dug up - got before they were installed. Anything look weird to you guys?

fronts:







rear:

[808celica]

yeah isnt the boot covers supposed to be attached with the top shock mount???

other than no bump stops then everthing looks fine. fat fronts skinny rears........top skinny and bottom fat


wait wait..........are the bump stops attached onto the boot covers???

[Jared95]

maybe you just got a bad set of struts?

[njccmd2002]

im using teins, but my wheels are 17/45 however your gap in the front seems same as mine, but the one in the back is bigger than mine. Meaning you prolly have too much weight in the front. Best way to tell is to get a stock engine dropped car, sit a 75 pound 12 year old kid and see if it drops more.

Remember these replacements are made to specs, they prolly were not designed to the extra weight, or IDK, maybe its just a bad strut... I went away from inserts and replaced the whole thing...

[hurley97]

The gap looks ok. Like someone else already said, it's a little high in the rear.

That bounce in the front is not right at all, the back seems about normal. The bad noises you hear over big bumps is probably due to not having the bump stops installed, mine does the same thing because I have no bump stops either.

Also, I am pretty sure those rubber boots are supposed to be connected to the top mounts at that little rubber piece on the top and not zip tied at the bottom the way they look like they are. Not that I think that's causing the bouncing but it could be contributing to some of your noises.

[tim86]

seems like theres something wrong with the struts... maybe try to return them and see if the problem persists because everything else looks good to me... The drop is normal and the teins look good tho... ive never really been able to have a 2 finger gap since my stock suspension.

[LewFX]

id say install some bump stops before returning them, or take one out, push the strut down with your hand and see how fast it pops back up.

[hurley97]

having or not having bump stops aren't going to affect how bouncy the struts are

This post has been edited by hurley97: Jun 6, 2008 - 11:23 AM

[tomazws]

Engine too heavy or not, even if you have 5 guys in the car, it shouldn't be THAT bouncy. I don't think weight is the issue, the front struts are the problem.

[LewFX]

i dont think the struts are bad at all...this is a spring problem and perhaps they have not settled yet, give it another month because your drop should be lower too

[lagos]

I dont think this is an install problem. Its probably just the way the blistine/tein combo is.
As far as you bottoming out, you have to remember that you have a much bigger motor in there now. You went from a small 4cly to a much bigger 6cly. Thats going to change your ride height a lot. I remember one of the first things I noticed after doing my swap is how much lower the car sat in the front.

Also keep in mind that a lowered car, plus a heavier motor, is going to mean that you end up blowing the shocks more often. It might be possible that the shocks are already shot after such a short period of time from the added weight and lowering.

[LewFX]

i had the bilstein/sprint combo, i didnt blow one til i ran into a 4" curb like construction street, no signs or warning so whammo, blown strut..maybe change the front springs to eibachs. or give it some time.

[lagos]

i had the bilstein/sprint combo, i didnt blow one til i ran into a 4" curb like construction street, no signs or warning so whammo, blown strut..maybe change the front springs to eibachs. or give it some time.

Keep in mind that you also have a much lighter motor then he does.

[GotToyota]

Given the extra weight of the car in the front, wouldn't it be better for him to just upgrade to coilovers?

-Matt

This post has been edited by GotToyota: Jun 6, 2008 - 1:15 PM

[DEATH]

Snapshotgt - I have that same combo on mine [Not sure how old the setup is tho]. Tell me next time you are coming down 290 - I'll see if I'm headed to Brenham and we can meet up [I go there fairly often].
Dyno day tommorrow - wanna see what she's putting down?

This post has been edited by DEATH: Jun 6, 2008 - 1:15 PM

[LewFX]

bilsteins are very stiff compared to kyb's, i don't think the extra weight will affect the bounciness.

[Batman722]

struts are blown/worn.

[snapshotgt]

As far as you bottoming out, you have to remember that you have a much bigger motor in there now. You went from a small 4cly to a much bigger 6cly. Thats going to change your ride height a lot. I remember one of the first things I noticed after doing my swap is how much lower the car sat in the front.

Any suggestions on another brad "lowering" spring that would not give as much, thus note be as low?

Also keep in mind that a lowered car, plus a heavier motor, is going to mean that you end up blowing the shocks more often. It might be possible that the shocks are already shot after such a short period of time from the added weight and lowering.

The suspension was like this from day one...

[lagos]

eibach prokit 1in drop, or coilovers.

[manphibian]

Definitely a problem with the shocks, not the springs. They are just not absorbing the bounce at all. That's what happens when your shocks are completely worn out.


weird.

[LewFX]

take the assembly out and find out for us.

[Valo666]

to me it just looks like the extra weight of the new motor blew the shocks. The amount of weight that the v6 has over the stock 5s would definatly weigh down the front end and. Maybe u need somethin more heavy duty then GR2s or the bilsteins. Maybe go with a set of SS coil overs or somethin. They are usually pretty heavy duty shocks for the coil overs.

[gt_driFFter]

I'll buy the springs from ya if you wanna buy another brand

[808celica]

i got a vid for you. its me after droppin in the new shocks......

im gonna go full coils later so i bought monroe's i'll post the vid of me going over a speed bump if it helps...

although i didnt bounce as much.

[bootslimo]

Make sure you bolted the sway bar ball joints up, If so maybe try an even bigger sway bar. Rember if one side isnt hooked up it will affect the other side. By the way you were luckt to have boots left after i lowered mine they came out in pieces.

[snapshotgt]

Here is what i'm doing:

1.) Replacing front bilsteins with new ones (found a good deal, trying them once more)
2.) Getting bump stops
3.) Getting TRD or eibach 1" drop lowering springs (selling teins - too low for my application)

I have not ordered the springs or bump stops yet, so i'll probably not get to this for another week or two.

[lagos]

Good plan.
I've been thinking of doing the same thing.
Sportlines/teins are too low for my taste, especially with a heavier motor in the front.

[creis]

how about bying a set of front shocks ment for the v6 camry, leave the backs the same. not sure if there the same or not but would not be hard to tell, if you can get cartrage style for the camary your good.

High performance shock absorber for TOYOTA camry Front-right. KYB no. 334246. OEM no. 48510-39486.

looks pretty close/identical worth looking into I think.

Toyota Nation Forum

[quote]in looking at Tokico Blue (HP), they don't seem to sell a full shock for '93, just a cartridge. I believe that simply changes the inners of the OEM shock, correct[\quote]

This post has been edited by creis: Jun 20, 2008 - 2:04 PM

[jgreening]

Here is what i'm doing:

1.) Replacing front bilsteins with new ones (found a good deal, trying them once more)
2.) Getting bump stops
3.) Getting TRD or eibach 1" drop lowering springs (selling teins - too low for my application)

I have not ordered the springs or bump stops yet, so i'll probably not get to this for another week or two.

My recommendation: dollar up to the Koni yellows. Stock or stock replacement struts are not meant to be used with ANY lowering spring. Alot of us have done it with good results - at first. But then, the struts wear relatively quickly and we are in the same boat. Frankly, if you keep your teins and buy Koni's, it won't be THAT much more expensive.

[snapshotgt]

Got the bilsteins. I'm concerned though because i can push the shaft all-the-way into the insert. It releases slowly (good). But, i'm worried how easy it is to compress with my bare strength - let alone a car.

My recommendation: dollar up to the Koni yellows. Stock or stock replacement struts are not meant to be used with ANY lowering spring. Alot of us have done it with good results - at first. But then, the struts wear relatively quickly and we are in the same boat. Frankly, if you keep your teins and buy Koni's, it won't be THAT much more expensive.

Koni's are pretty near a price of some coilovers ($900ish). Am i wrong? ~ $700ish?

I like the aggressive look of the teins, but with my crossmember being so low, its almost dangerous. I've bottomed out on speed bumps ect, in fact, 2 bolts down there are slightly bent because i drove unknowingly over one of those manhole filler ports at a gas station.

I'm looking at some TRDs with "less" of a drop - or else back to ugly stock springs.

[Havok1997GT]

i think its just the engine being a V6. It may not weigh much more the the old engine but it is bigger and what might be a factor is how the weight is distributed through out the engine which might be causing the problem. If the weight is to much different from the small 4 cyl we that the car is set up for, it might be whats causing the problem.

[jgreening]

Got the bilsteins. I'm concerned though because i can push the shaft all-the-way into the insert. It releases slowly (good). But, i'm worried how easy it is to compress with my bare strength - let alone a car.

My recommendation: dollar up to the Koni yellows. Stock or stock replacement struts are not meant to be used with ANY lowering spring. Alot of us have done it with good results - at first. But then, the struts wear relatively quickly and we are in the same boat. Frankly, if you keep your teins and buy Koni's, it won't be THAT much more expensive.

Koni's are pretty near a price of some coilovers ($900ish). Am i wrong? ~ $700ish?

I like the aggressive look of the teins, but with my crossmember being so low, its almost dangerous. I've bottomed out on speed bumps ect, in fact, 2 bolts down there are slightly bent because i drove unknowingly over one of those manhole filler ports at a gas station.

I'm looking at some TRDs with "less" of a drop - or else back to ugly stock springs.

Koni's can be had for less than $600. Here is a link to one I found with a quick google search:

import horizon

This would be a solution that will last awhile. So, yes, its a bit more expensive but considering you wouldn't have to buy springs, it would be close. I say return those bilstiens and go with the koni's and try keeping the teins. If you are still having a problem, go to the prokit. The TRD's are MUCH lower than the prokits - any misinformation on here that TRD's are a one inch drop is simply not true. They are closer to 2".

[Batman722]

The TRD's are MUCH lower than the prokits - any misinformation on here that TRD's are a one inch drop is simply not true. They are closer to 2".

I have TRD springs with KYB struts.
The TRDs don't drop the car as low as the teins, especially in the front.

[snapshotgt]

The TRD's are MUCH lower than the prokits - any misinformation on here that TRD's are a one inch drop is simply not true. They are closer to 2".

I have TRD springs with KYB struts.
The TRDs don't drop the car as low as the teins, especially in the front.

This isn't helping boys.

Does anyone of side by side pictures of tein and TRD? Dustin: You and stef maybe?

[DEATH]

I can show you Teins and billsteins in less than a month SnapshotGT

[tim86]

get a nice set of coilovers and be done with it... fully adjustable on the height and the comfort... seems like a good solution to me

[jgreening]

The TRD's are MUCH lower than the prokits - any misinformation on here that TRD's are a one inch drop is simply not true. They are closer to 2".

I have TRD springs with KYB struts.
The TRDs don't drop the car as low as the teins, especially in the front.

This isn't helping boys.

Does anyone of side by side pictures of tein and TRD? Dustin: You and stef maybe?

I don't see anything inconsistent between what Dustin and I wrote. He is saying that teins are lower than TRD's and I am saying that TRD's are not as high as everyone used to write 2+ years ago. If you search on TRD spring you will see alot of people saying they are rebadged prokits which I am saying is FALSE. The drop is considerably more than prokits. Here is the best picture I could find showing the drop of my old car with TRDs:



As for the coilovers, most coilovers made for the 6gc are CHEAP. Koni Yellows are quality products. If I were in your shoes snap, there is no question in my mind that I would do the prokits with the Koni Yellows. When have I ever steered you wrong, dog?

[snapshotgt]

The TRD's are MUCH lower than the prokits - any misinformation on here that TRD's are a one inch drop is simply not true. They are closer to 2".

I have TRD springs with KYB struts.
The TRDs don't drop the car as low as the teins, especially in the front.

This isn't helping boys.

Does anyone of side by side pictures of tein and TRD? Dustin: You and stef maybe?

I don't see anything inconsistent between what Dustin and I wrote. He is saying that teins are lower than TRD's and I am saying that TRD's are not as high as everyone used to write 2+ years ago. If you search on TRD spring you will see alot of people saying they are rebadged prokits which I am saying is FALSE. The drop is considerably more than prokits. Here is the best picture I could find showing the drop of my old car with TRDs:

As for the coilovers, most coilovers made for the 6gc are CHEAP. Koni Yellows are quality products. If I were in your shoes snap, there is no question in my mind that I would do the prokits with the Koni Yellows. When have I ever steered you wrong, dog?

1st bold: I guess you're saying teins have more than the spec'd .9" rear & 1.4" front drop?

2nd bold: Are you saying $900-$1500 coilovers are "cheap"? Cheaply made? Please explain...

3rd bold: This is true.

[jgreening]

1st bold: I guess you're saying teins have more than the spec'd .9" rear & 1.4" front drop?

2nd bold: Are you saying $900-$1500 coilovers are "cheap"? Cheaply made? Please explain...

3rd bold: This is true.

I have no experience with Tein springs....sorry. I have read a few generally good reviews though. I have ridden in cars with TRDs and Prokits and I could not distinguish the two. Some people do not like the prokits because the drop is not very pronounced but for your application, they would probably be perfect. I liked my TRD's alot and generally recommend them. As you can see, the drop looks pretty damn good in the picture above. The only complaint I had was the rear was a hair too low - maybe 1/4".

I have also been in a car with Koni Yellows and they felt great.

I am saying that all the korean / chinease coilovers are very cheap regardless of price. Others made for the 6gc will generally be harsh on the softest setting and not that great for a daily driver. On top of all that, the value just isn't there when you compare it to a nice set of springs and performance struts (only koni yellows for the 6gc).

[Edophus]

I'd say you have a spring/damper mismatch there and basically the dampers can not control the movement of the springs, your seeing a small amount of oscilation there, this is what the dampers are meant to control, stronger dampers on the front is what you need, its nothing to do with the springs, unless yout take the point of view that softer springs are the answer! and its nothing to do with it being a v6 conversion either.

Adjustable kyb's/koni's something like that if you get them would be the best answer as you can set them right, and you really need some bump stops in there as your lowering the car shortens the stroke length, over potholes etc you will bottom them out and possibly damage the valve mechanism.

I'd also agree with jgreening most coilover kits are cheaply made, often not using shortened shocks, and the likes of d2's/ksports/teins are all a bit poor until you start talking about the kits that cost upwards of $2000, they will not last long before needing rebuilt and generally dont stand up to much scrutiny, seen to many teins in particular with issues like cracked housings and rotten top mounts, much better off with a good shock/spring combo unless you can afford to spend the money, there is a world of difference between good coilovers and the cheaper kits.

[jgreening]

I'd say you have a spring/damper mismatch there and basically the dampers can not control the movement of the springs, your seeing a small amount of oscilation there, this is what the dampers are meant to control, stronger dampers on the front is what you need, its nothing to do with the springs, unless yout take the point of view that softer springs are the answer! and its nothing to do with it being a v6 conversion either.

Adjustable kyb's/koni's something like that if you get them would be the best answer as you can set them right, and you really need some bump stops in there as your lowering the car shortens the stroke length, over potholes etc you will bottom them out and possibly damage the valve mechanism.

I'd also agree with jgreening most coilover kits are cheaply made, often not using shortened shocks, and the likes of d2's/ksports/teins are all a bit poor until you start talking about the kits that cost upwards of $2000, they will not last long before needing rebuilt and generally dont stand up to much scrutiny, seen to many teins in particular with issues like cracked housings and rotten top mounts, much better off with a good shock/spring combo unless you can afford to spend the money, there is a world of difference between good coilovers and the cheaper kits.

Wisdom. The only thing I would like to point out is that the AGX's are not available for the 6gc. As such, its Koni Yellows baby (they are better for DD anyway)!

[snapshotgt]

For now, i've purchased KYBs for the fronts as a temporary fix.
Long term, i will be going with Koni's, but that is a little ways down the road.

Also going with the eibach prokit now to help the crossmember.

[tim86]

I beg to differ on the above comments about celica coilovers being "cheap". I have yet to hear a complaint on these forums on any d2/tein/ksport coilover system. These all can be purchased anywhere for 850-1600 and would be the best answer to a lot of suspension inconsistencies. Koni yellows and a good lowering spring would be the same price or more than a set of d2's or ksports and I still see no benefit to go with the mismatched combo. I have had my coilovers on for months now with no problems as well. And in both posts its stated that "most" coilovers are cheap and all available coilovers are listed. Which coilovers arnt cheap then? Hardly anybody on this site has the above coilovers listed installed and its a shame to bash such great products. My .02 though, good luck finding the right combo snapshot.

[jgreening]

I beg to differ on the above comments about celica coilovers being "cheap". I have yet to hear a complaint on these forums on any d2/tein/ksport coilover system. These all can be purchased anywhere for 850-1600 and would be the best answer to a lot of suspension inconsistencies. Koni yellows and a good lowering spring would be the same price or more than a set of d2's or ksports and I still see no benefit to go with the mismatched combo. I have had my coilovers on for months now with no problems as well. And in both posts its stated that "most" coilovers are cheap and all available coilovers are listed. Which coilovers arnt cheap then? Hardly anybody on this site has the above coilovers listed installed and its a shame to bash such great products. My .02 though, good luck finding the right combo snapshot.

Glad you have had a good experience so far. However, if you do your research, particularly on other car forums where people routinely invest in $1500+ suspension modifications, you will see that I am among the majority who believe that the chinese and other coilovers available for inexpensive japanese imports are poor in quality.

You are right that the cost of a good spring and Koni yellows will approach what a cheap coilover will cost. However, Koni makes quality products, period. I have never seen a single post with someone who bought a koni adjustable strut that has been critical of quality - and thats based on ALOT of research.

[snapshotgt]

Update:

Stopped by a friends house and we nailed out the fronts.
I can confirm i didn't have any bump stops, and the bilsteins felt pretty soft.
KYBs with eibach prokit now. Atm, i HATE the look of the prokits on the front.
Hopefully, they will settle and look better. Teins looked nice and aggressive. But, function > appearance

[snapshotgt]

Four finger gap in the front!

[Batman722]

it'll settle a bit after about a week

[snapshotgt]

Done.
I need an alignment before i really test it out, but i can tell its MUCH better in the front already. No freaking bounce fest.
Again, no bump stops on the rear. The prokit is obviously more beefy than the teins. Along with the springs and front struts,
i replaced spring insulators, added bump stops etc.


Few pictures:

Quick side-by-side of rear prokit vs tein springs:


Rear pass side (b4 swap out):


Rear drivers side (after swap out with prokit):


In progress....


Done!

[lagos]

How do you like the ride quality?
Before/after pics of the wheel gap?

[GotToyota]

Yes, let's see those pics. And what are you doing with the old Tein springs? Would you be interested in selling them?

[snapshotgt]

How do you like the ride quality?
Before/after pics of the wheel gap?

I need an alignment BAD, so will not on ride quality just yet. But, from the short distances i've traveled, it seems to be 10x better than the past setup.

Yes, let's see those pics. And what are you doing with the old Tein springs? Would you be interested in selling them?

Pictures are coming after they settle. Before pics can be seen one page 1. Teins will be sold, I have no need for them.

[trdproven]

My TRD springs before had a very tight two finger gap. Snap, not sure why you didn't want them.

[snapshotgt]

My TRD springs before had a very tight two finger gap. Snap, not sure why you didn't want them.

TRD is reported to drop more than the prokit (as seen again with your 2 finger gap), even though on paper they're supposed to be the same. I am happy with how these are settling. Again, if you read prior posts in this thread i'm wanting less of a drop than teins and more than ugly stock (b/c of crossmember), and its giving it to me.

[jgreening]

PICS!

[snapshotgt]

PICS!

More can be found here.

[njccmd2002]

1 year update, did they settle?

[ST204R]

Dragging this one out of mothballs. I'm having much the same issue as snapshotgt with my front suspension. Bouncy as hell, sitting super low and bottoming out on minor potholes at minor speed. My crossmember has been sectioned and plate steel reinforced so sits no lower than original. Only started happening around a year ago and the v6 has been in for 3 years - so does this just mean my struts are blown? Surely springs have lost their strength as well? I would go prokit as well but my cross member is not low like snapshots and I want a decent drop for performance reasons. Thoughts?