Help?! How do I remove clutch master cylinder? Options

[GriffGirl]

It appears my clutch master cylinder went out. I've replaced the slave cylinder already, so that leaves the MC which I believe is back-bleeding; can somebody point me in the direction of where I might find removal instructions? Or give me a rundown on how to remove the MC? I'm picking up a new one today and intend/hope to install it tomorrow.

Thanks!

This post has been edited by GriffGirl: Oct 11, 2008 - 4:31 PM

[Batman722]

First, undo the hard line on the engine bay side of the master cylinder (10mm). Use a flare wrench if you can.

Then, take a flashlight with you and lay in the footwell on your back with your head at the pedals.

There's a pushrod that comes out of the firewall (its part of the master cyl) and connects to the pedal. Take off the clip that holds in the pin at the pedal and undo it from the pedal.

Look at the clutch pedal bracket and you'll see two (12 or 14mm, I can't remember) nuts right behind the pedal on either side of the push rod. Then follow the bracket way up and there's another nut of the same size. I believe there is another one at the bottom but I can't remember since I think I found it while doing Tina's (ILuvMyCelica95) but mine (this is Stef/hurley97, not batman) doesn't have the bottom one.

Then you can pull out the clutch master cylinder.

This post has been edited by Batman722: Oct 11, 2008 - 4:59 PM

[hurley97]

First, undo the hard line on the engine bay side of the master cylinder (10mm). Use a flare wrench if you can.

Then, take a flashlight with you and lay in the footwell on your back with your head at the pedals.

There's a pushrod that comes out of the firewall (its part of the master cyl) and connects to the pedal. Take off the clip that holds in the pin at the pedal and undo it from the pedal.

Look at the clutch pedal bracket and you'll see two (12 or 14mm, I can't remember) nuts right behind the pedal on either side of the push rod. Then follow the bracket way up and there's another nut of the same size. I believe there is another one at the bottom but I can't remember since I think I found it while doing Tina's (ILuvMyCelica95) but mine (this is Stef/hurley97, not batman) doesn't have the bottom one.

Then you can pull out the clutch master cylinder.

to edit what I wrote, you can just disregard that whole section in italics. Half of the times I've taken the master cyl out or put one in I was putting in the whole pedal assembly. Sorry

This post has been edited by hurley97: Oct 11, 2008 - 9:45 PM

[GriffGirl]

Okay, these instructions were perfect! It was a total cake walk - the hardest part was just getting up in there at those two bolts on either side of the push rod.

I'm still having the same problem w/the clutch though. Basically car won't go into gear w/the engine running. It goes into gear fine w/engine off, but when it's running 1st is not possible, 2nd requires a great deal of force, and so on. Reverse results only in a horrible gear grinding, so I'm not even gonna attempt to see if it'll go in reverse at all.

When I idle in 1st w/the car running and clutch in, after about 2 minutes the car will start to vibrate hard and will just get worse the longer it runs. RPMs drop too as vibrations increase; if I let it run long enough it will probably stall out. Oh, and there's no burning smell of clutch nor are there any strange noises.

Also, if I start the car in 1st and let up on the clutch as though to drive it, it'll pull forward as it normally should.

My initial thought (obviously) is that this is a hydrolic issue and while there were (and are) no visible signs of leaking, that somewhere it was back-bleeding. I've replaced the slave cylinder to no avail, and have now replaced the MC also to no avail.

Tomorrow I will bleed the system out again - it is entirely possible I didn't flush it properly after replacing the MC. I have two questions: 1, can someone please instruct me as to the proper way to bleed the clutch line? Pedal pressure feels good right now and normal, (pedal play feels correct too) but I'm trying to eliminate the hydrolic system as a cause. 2nd question is: anyone have any ideas as to WTF is going on w/my car?!? Why would the clutch seemingly not disengage? I looked at the synchros too, they appear pretty alright; one is a little wobbly and worn, but doesn't *appear* to be problematic. W/out ever having dealth w/this before, I have nothing to compare it to though.

Help (please)!

[hurley97]

If you pump the pedal or don't hold the clutch in for longer than you need to everything works like normal, right?

The RPMs dropping and vibrations is the hydraulic system not holding pressure and slowly disengaging the clutch. That sounds entirely like a clutch hydraulic system problem to me. I had the same issues before, I replaced both the slave and master at the same time.

You could try bleeding the system again, but if the pedal pressure seems fine that probably isn't the issue. It's just like bleeding brakes, open the bleeder at the slave cylinder and either 1. use a mighty vac to suck out the fluid while you add to the master cyl or 2. have someone pump the pedal and add to the master cyl until there are no bubbles and tighten the bleeder.

Did you use OEM parts? Aftermarket rebuilds could cause problems. I have an aftermarket rebuilt master cyl and slave and it's always felt a little wrong to me. Maybe you got a defective master cylinder? Start the car, hold the clutch in, and have someone watch the slave cyl to see if it starts to push the fork out slowly. If it does then you know the problem is somewhere between the pedal and slave cyl, which has to be within the hydraulic system.

This post has been edited by hurley97: Oct 12, 2008 - 11:27 PM

[GriffGirl]

I used new parts but not actual Toyota parts - IIRC both the master & slave are Raybestos, both new not rebuilt. It did occur to me that the MC is defective, but that seems like a bit of a stretch.

I'll do that with watching to see if the fork pushes out slowly. I'm a bit relieved to hear you still think it's a hydraulic issue too... (I'm also pleased to now know how to spell that word correctly, I knew something didn't look right! LOL)

Everything points to it being something w/the hydraulic system but it's just stumped me. The old fluid in the old MC reservoir was U-G-L-Y. There was a clear separation between the new fluid I'd added after doing the slave and the old fluid still in there - it was mirky and VERY brown and dirty.

Tonight I think I'm just going to attempt to bleed/flush the entire line until the fluid that comes out of the bleeder on the slave is clear. Maybe the old fluid just finally broke down and caused the failure of the old MC; between that and not properly bleeding the system I'm still having those issues.

Thanks for your advice/info - it's VERY much appreciated! I'll update this tomorrow with my findings. Hopefully it'll be after I've driven MYSELF to work instead of bumming a ride again!

[DEATH]

Are you keeping the area around the various parts and connections completely dry and clean? A slight leak can cause you to never get a good bleed, slow loss of pressure etc and the only way you'd know it is if you saw the leak gradually spread over clean parts. I'd hose that area down with carb cleaner, let it dry then work the clutch for a while to see if anything develops in addition to the checks Hurley mentioned above. Borrowing some type of speed bleeding system [IDK what for this hydraulic system cause I've never had any problems changing and bleeding mine] would eliminate any guess work or grey areas - how about that mechanic friend of yours? Maybe he/she has something.

This post has been edited by DEATH: Oct 13, 2008 - 1:25 PM

[GriffGirl]

The mechanic person lives 60 miles away

But yes, I'm keeping it clean, I know not to get debris in the MC or anything, plus I'm kind of meticulous about that sort of stuff anyway The engine bay is actually pretty clean, I cleaned it a few weeks ago and have kept it wiped down since then.

I'm gonna buy another bottle of brake fluid and bleed the clutch until what comes out is clear. At least then I'll know for sure that it's clean w/fresh fluid and properly bled too

[hurley97]

The old fluid being really nasty could possibly have something to do with it, but I still think the pedal would feel strange if that were the case. It's easy enough to try it though. Make sure all your bolts and hard lines are tight, check that the flex hose isn't leaking or swelled, etc. But if you try that test and the slave cyl moves while holding the clutch all the way in, there's definitely fluid still bleeding past something.

The clutch system is bled the same way and with the same tools as the brakes.

I'm happy to help

[GriffGirl]

Bled the system out more tonight, but nothing. Still won't go into gear. Doesn't vibrate as hard when I start it up in gear and hold the clutch in (still vibrates abnormally hard but not quite as bad as before), and it won't stall out but I still can't get it into gear with the engine running. Oh and fork thingie by the slave cylinder stays put when engine is running and the clutch is held in.

I can force it into second w/the engine running but can't get it into first if I start in neutral.

And now, I want to throw up. WTF is wrong with my car? What do you guys think I should check next, linkage?

It's looking more and more like my next venture will be learning how to drop the transmission. I was SO hoping to avoid that!

Oh, and PS: it seems as of yesterday the battery won't hold a charge either. Coincidence? Probably, but makes ya wonder.

[Batman722]

if you pump the clutch pedal does to go into gear ?

try changing your tranny oil, that should help.

[GriffGirl]

No, it doesn't go into gear if I pump the clutch pedal - I totally thought of that too.

I was wondering about the tranny oil; I'll change it but just for my own personal knowledge, wouldn't the oil have been changed when the new clutch was put in last year? Or do you not have to drain the transmission to change the clutch? I know for a fact that the mechanic who did the work last year cut corners because the owner of the car at the time didn't have a lot of money. For example, he had the engine replaced, but didn't change the timing belt... stuff like that. Nice.

[DEATH]

No you don't have to change the tranny lube to change the clutch. IMO you got one more trick before you gotta drop that tranny and that's do what Batman said and change the fluid. I have 3-4 quarts of syncromesh [What you want - trust me] in the garage. You can borrow it and just pay me back after you get over all of this so this will be a free test other than shipping [There is nothing illegal about interstate shipping of oil is there?]

[GriffGirl]

How much is the stuff? I might be able to scrape together enough for it tomorrow. That's what I was gonna try to get anyway

[DEATH]

Somewhere between $10-15/quart IDK - call Autozone. I'm not worried about it Griffy - I got the stuff for my upcoming E153 swap which I still haven't gotten driveshafts built for and the tranny still hasn't gotten here so it's gonna be early next year probably before I do that. You have time.
BTW - whatever Autozone, PepBoy's or O'reilley's wants for it is all you'd eventually owe me - the price range above is from memory and I might be all wet - call them.
And no - I have no idea how many quarts you need for the ST's gearbox - I've only ever changed out "S" Series trannys.

[GriffGirl]

I'll look it up in a little bit and PM you. Thanks!

Oh... and worst case scenario, if my whole transmission is toast I'm going to seriously attempt to take advantage of it and see what kind of upgrade opportunity it might present LOL

[DEATH]

Six speed!!!!!!

[GriffGirl]

Six speed!!!!!!

If I can find one that mates up to a 7A, that's exactly the route I'd want to go. Or at least LSD

[hurley97]

Oh and fork thingie by the slave cylinder stays put when engine is running and the clutch is held in.

No, it doesn't go into gear if I pump the clutch pedal - I totally thought of that too.

yeah that definitely doesn't sound like a hydraulic system problem then.

How many miles are on the tanny? Did it show any signs of failing before, like grinding or anything?

The C52 tranny takes about 3qts. I think dry fill is a little over 3qts so I usually get 4 just in case.

[GriffGirl]

No, no signs of failing before, none whatsoever. Reverse was sometimes a little fickle, but no, no grinding ever. No slippage, just no symptoms whatsoever! I'm gonna try bleeding it one more time, in case there's still air in the line. A mechanic I spoke to today said all he can think it is really would be a hydraulic issue; he's totally stumped too.

Oh yeah... miles on the tranny. You ready for this?


239,xxx. It's the original one. (but has been rock-solid since I got the car July '07)

[hurley97]

With that many miles the frequency of fluid changes would be critical to know. If the fluid was last changed at like 150k that would be bad, but it should show signs of grinding, maybe the grinding in reverse was a slight hint.

Did this mechanic say why he thinks it's still a hydraulic system issue? If the slave cyl doesn't move the fork at all while holding in the clutch it's either leaking from a line somewhere, in which case you'd notice a drop in fluid level, or it's something completely different.

[DEATH]

Doesn't the levin 6speed tranny [e58?] bolt right up and also sport LSD. With similar parts needed but OEM just like an e153 swap for us s54 guys ["hybrid" clutch? "Hybrid" axles with spacer etc] I may be all wet - IDK "A" series trannys other than having changed one in a MKI MR2 twice. IIRC that levin tranny bolted right up to his stuff but it's been many many years. I can talk to him

This post has been edited by DEATH: Oct 15, 2008 - 6:50 AM

[GriffGirl]

With that many miles the frequency of fluid changes would be critical to know. If the fluid was last changed at like 150k that would be bad, but it should show signs of grinding, maybe the grinding in reverse was a slight hint.

Did this mechanic say why he thinks it's still a hydraulic system issue? If the slave cyl doesn't move the fork at all while holding in the clutch it's either leaking from a line somewhere, in which case you'd notice a drop in fluid level, or it's something completely different.

He thinks it's a fluid/hydraulic issue because of the drop in RMPs and the vibrating when idling in 1st, and the general inability to change gears w/the engine running. Granted, he's going solely by what I've told him; as the car is not drivable right now, and him being 60 miles away, it's all basically being done over the phone and w/text messaging.

[GriffGirl]

Also, how do I check the linkage? Can anyone provide me a picture of what the linkage is? Is it those thingies that move back and forth when you shift, kind of rod-like things on the firewall side of the transmission? What do I check for?

[Batman722]

I'm guessing that when you had your clutch changed the seals were either probably pinched or cracked and you've been dripping tranny fluid for a while (also the person who changed it probably used the cheapest stuff they could find).
change your tranny oil, use syncromesh (about $7 a quart at autozone) theres a how-to in the stickies with pics, it's not difficult, you can do it.

[GriffGirl]

I feel confident in my ability to change the tranny oil (which I will be doing tomorrow regardless of whatever the hell is wrong with the car, unless of course there's metal shavings when I drain the tranny) but I want to check the linkage too and rule it out as a possible culprit before I delve into dropping the tranny. Is the linkage basically those connecting rods on the firewall side that run from the shifter to the transmission? What kinds of things should I check for?

[DEATH]

Watch the side fill plug on the A series trannies likes to cross thread and then you're fcuked - did it on my buddies GSI - sucked till the end of time [for that 4A-GE anyway ]

This post has been edited by DEATH: Oct 17, 2008 - 1:54 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

You can change gears with the engine not running, so it's not the linkage.

I suspect that you'll see the problem as soon as the tranny comes out. Speaking of which, I noticed that something was just delivered a couple minutes ago...

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Oct 17, 2008 - 11:24 AM

[GriffGirl]

^I feel giddy over that

Exedy FTMFBBQW as the EC6GCers like to put it

This post has been edited by GriffGirl: Oct 17, 2008 - 12:19 PM

[DEATH]

Watch the side fill plug on the A series trannies likes to cross thread and then you're fcuked

[GriffGirl]

I WILL NOW GET OFF MY BACK

[DEATH]

ONE A DEEZ DAYS ALICE...ONE A DEEZ DAYS...

[GriffGirl]

you so love me

[DEATH]

TO DA MOON ALICE!

[GriffGirl]

Here's the update:


C'est clutch! The offending chunks of metal were found wedged between the clutch and the pressure plate. They came from "inside" the clutch (the little sandwichy part where the springs lie).

Exedy OEM organic clutch is in place, transmission is mounted back up, and the rest will be finished tomorrow night after work when I can get back out to where the car is. Motor mounts suck! They're a b*tch to get back in. Luckily I have help, who, in fact, has actually done a significant part of the work, at least the take-down. At least I got to watch; I'm doing the re-assembly though.

And before you ask, YES I GOT THE FLYWHEEL MACHINED.

[hurley97]

Wow, that's a new one. Glad you found the problem, and you got to learn a hell of a lot about the hydraulic system for no reason

[GriffGirl]

I'm choosing to believe that it is the failure of the hydraulic system that caused the failure of the clutch. I guess theoretically it's possible, right? Like if the master cylinder failed, it could have caused the slave cylinder to fail which in turn prevented the clutch from disengaging, and of course with the clutch still engaged it could have gotten mysteriously chewed up.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it. At least it's a somewhat educated theory. Ooh, that makes it a hypothesis.

[hurley97]

I would tend to doubt the hydraulic system was that bad without you noticing way before. When my master cylinder went I waited way too long and the car was almost un-driveable before I actually replaced the slave and master, and my clutch was just fine after that. But you never know, it might depend on the clutch that was in there and how old it was, etc.

In other words... sure, that sounds like a somewhat plausible hypothesis to me

This post has been edited by hurley97: Oct 22, 2008 - 9:14 PM

[GriffGirl]

I will hold on to the belief about the hydraulic system only because I need to somehow console myself for spending $100 that I didn't really have on parts I didn't really need. Although doing the clutch myself and saving the cost of labor is more than enough consolation - overspending $100 but saving myself another $400 by doing it myself definitely helps

I drove the car to work this morning! It runs, well... fabulously. The clutch pedal feels very different than it did before, almost to the point that I thought something was wrong with it last night when I test drove it. It goes in MUCH easier now than it did before. It's a LOT smoother... I checked the pedal play and it's right, and it feels right, so it's not that or anything. I think it's just having fresh fluid in the line, basically a new hydraulic system, and a new clutch is all new to me. I've never had a new clutch before - this is the first car I've ever had to replace a clutch on.

I will also sing high praises of Penzoil Synchromesh. The difference between how my car shifts now and how my car shifted before is remarkable. It's so smooth, it virtually glides into gear. Reverse has never been such a joy! LOL

Thanks all of you guys for all your help and tips and advice and for putting up with my obsessive posts. Hopefully it'll be a long time before I need to solicit any actual mechanical help again.... 239,000 miles and going strong!