Going 7A-FE to 3S-GE BEAMS?, Any major differences from the 5S-FE - 3S-GE BEAMS swap? Options

[AnaXyd]

Hi!

I am really tired of the 7A-FE engine now. The Celica look like a sportscar, but perform like a... yeah, it perform badly. I want to keep the cocky guys behind me, when they try to race against me, not in front.

And the 7A-FE have been rolling nearly 200.000km, and very soon I need to change timing belt, water and oil pumps, clutch and so on. So the thought "swap engine" came by.

Since I live in Norway, its really strict laws of swapping engines. But I am 99% sure that I can swap into the 3S-GE legally, without changing all the suspension, brakes and so on.

So, we have the engine, but which generation? Then the other thought "BEAMS" came by. Its the same engine code, but a lot better.(right? )

VVT-i, 200horsepower, sexy look and so on


BUT the big question is: Will this be simple, or not? I think I am going to buy a RHD frontcut, but my car is LHD, so I think it will be some playing with the harness.

Is there anyone that have done this swap? I cant find any with the search, so this is maybe a really rare swap.

This post has been edited by AnaXyd: Apr 29, 2010 - 4:46 PM

[hurley97]

I just did a really quick search and found a ton of info and people who did the redtop Beams swap.

Mine and Dustin's Beams swapped 94 GT

Norberto's Beams swap into his 97 GT Vert

Erahman85's Beams swap into a 99 GT

2bcelica's Beams swap into a 98 GT

Turnip's Beams swap into a 94 GT

Outsider's Beams swap into a 94 GT-S, and latest update thread

Puretone's Beams swap into a 5th gen vert

Tweak's Beams swap into a 5th gen vert


And there are more than that with other Beams info, those are pretty much just the swap threads I found. The only difference between all those people and you is that you are starting out with a 7AFE, all those people removed a 5SFE. But as long as your motor set or clip comes with all the mounts and the power steering pump everything should be about the same. The wiring may or may not be slightly different, I'm not sure about that part.

[AnaXyd]

Thank you for all this info. I really appreciate it. I have been through some of them, but I didnt find anyone with the 7A-FE - 3S-GE swap.

If I buy a front clip, I think all of the parts should be there. But I got some simple questions:

- Do I need to change the front hubs? (to fit the axles from the beams trans)
^{- I have seen some discussions regarding the gauge cluster. Some threads says that you need to change into the BEAMS one to get all correct. But is this really needed?} - Got this confirmed. Need to change the RPM gauge from BEAMS gauge cluster to mine.


And at last, if you folks are kind, do you have any tips to me?


AND: Will you suggest to just swap into the 3S-GE non beams, instead?

This post has been edited by AnaXyd: Apr 26, 2010 - 6:45 AM

[hurley97]

The ST and GT have the same hubs so Beams axles will fit in your hubs just fine. Only difference is that everyone with a GT can also use their original GT axles as well as the Beams axles, you can't do that with your ST axles.

Changing the gauge cluster over is the easy way to do it but its not necessary. You can buy a tach adapter like me and Dustin did with our Beams. We used one from Dakota Digital.

Personally I wouldn't think its worth all the work of swapping for a non-Beams when you can get the Beams for not much more, but I guess it really depends on your budget. If you can swing the extra money for the Beams then you should do it.

[AnaXyd]

Thank you for great reply.

Then the axle problem is solved. I am always scared if they NOT fit!


Regarding the harness, WILL this be the same (bridging pin 4 and 17 on EA1, and removing black wire on white interior plug slot #18 and repin it into dark grey plug slot #17) plus extending the harness to make it go into the hole on the passenger side.

This is done to a 5S-FE - 3S-GE BEAMS swap. Will it be different with a 7A-FE swap?

[AnaXyd]

I really need this approved guys!

Will the harness work be the same on my ST as the GT?


Then I can start my process in this swap! (Just need to clearify that I can get this street legal in Norway, then its ON)

This post has been edited by AnaXyd: Apr 29, 2010 - 7:20 AM

[AnaXyd]

Okay, have checked around a bit, and it looks like the only difference between swapping a BEAMS into a 7A-FE vs 5S-FE is the motor mounts. To be more specific, I need to drill up some holes in the chassis, but thats not a really big deal.

If this sounds right, I am very close to buying a BEAMS engine!

But got a final question of the exhaust system. Is this bolt on with my original system, or do I need to fabricate some custom pipes etc?



Answers is appreciated!

[Rusty]

yup you got the mounts spot on, yes they need to be changed

the exhaust will be different, even the beams swap into a 5S GT, they have to change the piping. at that point why not go for an aftermarket/custom exhaust, since the 7A exhaust system is properly very small.

one last thing try get one that has everything airbox etc, post up links on ones your thinking of buying just to be sure you get everything.

[AnaXyd]

Thank you for reply, Rusty!

Okay, then I will surely go for aftermarked exhaust piping, when we are in the flow!

I have found a front-clip, that seems to have everything that I'll need. I dont want to make chances to NOT get every single bolt that I need.

Is there something else that I need? I was thinking of changing the timing belt and the water and oil pump when I got the engine out.

[Rusty]

yes its proberly a good ida to do it. Should be done either 10years or 100,000kms which ever come first (Im pretty sure those numbers are right)

[AnaXyd]

Yeah, I should do it when I got the possibility. It cant be so expensive to do it myself, so why not!

--

And there, I think my dream jus got blown... After talking to Toyota Norway.

My plan was to get this swap street legal here in Norway, but I was now told by a technican in Toyota that it would be too much headache. He said that I needed to change the brakes at the front, some stiffness bars in the engine bay(?), and get it emission legal. Toyota Norway says that I need to rebuild my car to the exact same as the car I am getting the engine from.

That sucked, I really wanted to become the first in Norway to do this swap....

[zavnet]

Yeah, I should do it when I got the possibility. It cant be so expensive to do it myself, so why not!

--

And there, I think my dream jus got blown... After talking to Toyota Norway.

My plan was to get this swap street legal here in Norway, but I was now told by a technician in Toyota that it would be too much headache. He said that I needed to change the brakes at the front, some stiffness bars in the engine bay(?), and get it emission legal. Toyota Norway says that I need to rebuild my car to the exact same as the car I am getting the engine from.

That sucked, I really wanted to become the first in Norway to do this swap....

didn't want to kill your dreams but the truth with the 7afe swap is that its a lot of headache..... BUT! if u wanna do it please have patience u will need it..... i found that out the hard way with mine .. (nb.. i use mine to go to work .. and that was a drag not having it for the last 2 months) .... the sub frames in the st models are different from the gt. when i got the mounts for the regular 3sge (thats the swap that i did not the beams but they are similar) i realize that i had to use back my mounts and the mechanic had to fabricate the brackets to fit. only the right side mount i used and even then u have to bore the holes for that. then also after mounting the engine with the other mounts i realize that the engine is 1" and a half over to the left hence the original axle that i bought for the 3sge was short on the right side and now i had to cut the original 7afe axle and weld it for it to fit. so right now i am currently searching for a longer axle or just to take my car to another mechanic and let then figure out how to mount the engine properly oh and i have the original 7afe axle (left side)in it but other than that it drives well. have other stuff to tell u that i went through but i have to go pick up the wife so later.

[Rusty]

Maybe if you got a 1/2 cut you'd get the brakes etc, but that'll cost a bit more

Hmm other options: You could look for an imported SS series? or maybe swap the beams into a EDM GT (since they have similar brakes bracing etc)

This post has been edited by Rusty: May 4, 2010 - 1:24 AM

[AnaXyd]

Yeah, I should do it when I got the possibility. It cant be so expensive to do it myself, so why not!

--

And there, I think my dream jus got blown... After talking to Toyota Norway.

My plan was to get this swap street legal here in Norway, but I was now told by a technician in Toyota that it would be too much headache. He said that I needed to change the brakes at the front, some stiffness bars in the engine bay(?), and get it emission legal. Toyota Norway says that I need to rebuild my car to the exact same as the car I am getting the engine from.

That sucked, I really wanted to become the first in Norway to do this swap....

didn't want to kill your dreams but the truth with the 7afe swap is that its a lot of headache..... BUT! if u wanna do it please have patience u will need it..... i found that out the hard way with mine .. (nb.. i use mine to go to work .. and that was a drag not having it for the last 2 months) .... the sub frames in the st models are different from the gt. when i got the mounts for the regular 3sge (thats the swap that i did not the beams but they are similar) i realize that i had to use back my mounts and the mechanic had to fabricate the brackets to fit. only the right side mount i used and even then u have to bore the holes for that. then also after mounting the engine with the other mounts i realize that the engine is 1" and a half over to the left hence the original axle that i bought for the 3sge was short on the right side and now i had to cut the original 7afe axle and weld it for it to fit. so right now i am currently searching for a longer axle or just to take my car to another mechanic and let then figure out how to mount the engine properly oh and i have the original 7afe axle (left side)in it but other than that it drives well. have other stuff to tell u that i went through but i have to go pick up the wife so later.

Oh, that looks like a lot of problems! Especially the axle problem, which I dont want to risk to not fit. But are you done with the swap now? Everything is solved?

Maybe if you got a 1/2 cut you'd get the brakes etc, but that'll cost a bit more

Hmm other options: You could look for an imported SS series? or maybe swap the beams into a EDM GT (since they have similar brakes bracing etc)

Yeah, that would be really expensive i think..

Are there imported BEAMS engines, like LHD? And I really dont want to change the car, since I have done a LOT of fabricating and work on it. Especially love! But there may be a chance to change into the 3S-GE non-beams, without headache? If I find anything, though.

This was so sad, I was SO close buying that clip!

This post has been edited by AnaXyd: May 4, 2010 - 2:07 AM

[Rusty]

nope they (BEAMS) only came out RHD from Japan..

in that case maybe best look for a 1/2 cut BEAMS for your swap

[AnaXyd]

Damn, if they were LHD too, it would have been alot easier! But a halfcut is rare, and it will still be a headache to get it in, like zavnet says.

But, is the 3S-GE non-beams so much worse than the BEAMS? It has 30hp less or something, and I can live with that!

[zavnet]

Damn, if they were LHD too, it would have been alot easier! But a halfcut is rare, and it will still be a headache to get it in, like zavnet says.

But, is the 3S-GE non-beams so much worse than the BEAMS? It has 30hp less or something, and I can live with that!

the 3sge non beams is 190hp i think and its the same setup re engine mounts. yes my swap is complete now however i am still driving around with a cut and welded axle i am still searching for a longer one that i can take to a machine shop and cut to the correct length and have them put back in the splines.

as for our left hand drive celicas be sure to get a longer gas pedal cable to make the "bend" properly so that u can have smooth acceleration. my car is still automatic but i went through serious headache with firstly the tranni that i got . it didn't carry a speed sensor and uses ABS so i had to take it back to the dealer that i got it from and find one thats electronical as well and uses a speed sensor hence i didn't have to trouble my dash. but the one i got was total garbage the thing kept stalling the car in reverse and drive because the transmission it self had a fault ... after thinking that it was the elctrician who wired my car wrong and going back and forth (to elctrician and transmission man) taking out valve body and all that..didn't work so then we decided to just get rid of it and buy another one similar and...... walla it worked! no more problems just that the kick down cable was short had to extend that as well. have a few upgrades to drop in now thats sitting around at home such as MSD igniter and hks limiter...350 psi walbro fuel pump and it needs to be piped out properly ....and speaking about piped out u will need to get the exhaust that connects immediately after the exhaust manifold thats like a v shape .. i had to do some cutting and welding there. yup lots of work i almost thought to myself at one point that this celica was definitely not made to have the 3sge engine after nearly giving up.

[AnaXyd]

That looks like a LOT of more trouble that the GT guys got. For them, it looks like its really close to bolt on. Is the ST so different? I thought it was the motor mount you'd have to drill in the chassis, and the crossmember that was different.

[zavnet]

That looks like a LOT of more trouble that the GT guys got. For them, it looks like its really close to bolt on. Is the ST so different? I thought it was the motor mount you'd have to drill in the chassis, and the crossmember that was different.

ya they make it look so easy.. and oh i have the disk brakes to put in at the back... i really hate toyota for making the St version and worse myself for buying it!

[AnaXyd]

Yeah, but you are sure that your technicans dont have taken a "longer" road on swapping? Maybe it IS easy, but they did misunderstand?

Can someone other on 6gc.net please confirm that the swap is this headache or not?

I would be pleased to know what I am diving into.

[BonzaiCelica]

non beams 3sge has 177 hp btw

[AnaXyd]

177hp is not bad! Is the BEAMS so much better, then? It got like 200hp, which is, after my calculation 23hp more.

[Rusty]

heres pretty much what you need to do:
http://www.celica-club.co.uk/wiki/index.ph...ine_Transplants

KevGT's Guide for a Gen 6 Engine Transplant

Well Guys and Gals I thought a how to on an ST to GT upgrade was required. So here goes.

I won’t go into undo this bolt and that bolt etc but I will highlight what is next.

Well firstly I would never recommend buying these parts bit by bit as they will cost more than buying a new GT. I recommend getting a side impact damaged GT for your bits, I got mine for about £500.

Here is a list of what you will need to do the swap:

1. 3SGE Engine. Obviously, try to find one similar year or you will have to do some wiring as the newer models have different set up (EGR etc)
2. Radiator as the GT one is bigger and has different coolant pipe set up.
3. Accelerator Cable. The GT one is longer.
4. Gear linkage as the gear box is different.
5. Gearbox the mounting is the same as the ST.
6. Drive shafts are different so you need both of them too.
7. Wheel Hubs including the brake disks for the front as the Brakes are larger.
8. Brakes, GT brake callipers are bigger and believe me you need em.
9. ABS sensors as they are different to the ST.
10. Rev counter as the 3SGE revs higher, you don’t have change the Speedo, but the GT goes up to 180 mph, these are a direct swap. Also the GT has and engine oil level sensor this needs a bulb if you use the ST clocks.
11. Exhaust Down pipe, you can mate it to the ST pipe at the CAT but the GT cat is larger so a bit of welding has to be done. I used the GT exhaust.
12. The ST rear Brakes are fine as they are the same as the GT.

Firstly get the car up off the ground completely as this makes access easier.

On the top

Drain the Coolant, engine oil, gearbox oil and power steering.
Remove the radiator by undoing the top 12mm bolts holding the rad to the front. And take off the coolant hoses. With the radiator removed it makes the engine easier to get out.
Disconnect the accelerator cable

Left side of the Engine bay

Starting on one side of the engine first I chose the left side of the car.
Remove the air box and battery.
Remove the fuel return pipes and the top banjo union from the fuel line. You can remove the fuel filter housing this make access to the gearbox easier.
Undo the R clips off the gearbox linkage ends and the locating clips on the linkage and remove the gearbox linkage, Keep the R clips as you need them.
Remove the clutch fluid pipe from the front of the gear box and undo all the clips all around as you can use the same pipe work.
Undo all the earth cables that connect to the battery and the left suspension strut (10mm bolt).

Into the electrics

Remove the 3 10mm bolts that hold in the fuse box and separate where the engine loom EA1 plug goes in to the car loom (this is where any rewiring has to be done).
Remove the left kick plate and pull back the mat to reveal the ECU wiring.
Remove the ECU from the between the foot wells 3 10mm bolts and undo the connections to the ECU and the connections in to back of the console 4 Clips.
You will need to ensure that the Loom is not connected as this needs to be pulled through the bulkhead of the car.
Back under the bonnet remove the 2 10mm bolts which hold the ECU wiring loom in place on the bulkhead.
Pull the wiring out of the car and put to one side.

The right side of the car

Undo the power steering pipes off the reservoir and remove the power steering reservoir.
Disconnect the earth cable from the Alternator to right suspension strut.
Pull of the breather to the Steering actuator. Just a pipe with a clip on.

Underneath the car

Remove all the cover panels they are 10mm bolts and screws with 10mm heads.
Undo the Down pipe and drop it down.
Disconnect the Lambda sensor from the exhaust

At the sides

Remove both front wheels and remove the whole wheel station.
3 x 17mm bolts underneath the wishbone.
Undo the steering track rod end split and 17 mm nut.
2 x 19mm Bolts and remove the nut from the suspension legs.
You will need to remove the brake pipe from the calliper to fit the GT brakes on.
Remove the complete ABS cable the connections are the same for the GT and you ll need the cable. This is done by removing the inner wing cover.
Pull out the old drive shafts, if you didn’t drain the gearbox oil go get some rags.

On the left side of the car looking to wheel station towards the rear of the gearbox and you will see the rear engine/gearbox mount this is the trickiest part of re assembling the engine back in as it’s a bugger to line up.
Using a 17mm socket and loads of extensions push the extensions into the hole and undo the rear bolt. And remove it completely keep the bolt as you ll need it.

At this point attach the engine hoist to the engine to support it for the lift.

Remove the front engine/gearbox mount this one is easily accessible with no radiator in.

Take up the lift with the hoist

Remove the right side engine mount completely.
Remove the gearbox mount completely its in two parts split them to make putting it back together easier.

Do a final check around the engine to check nothing is still connected. The power steering union will be.

Slightly lift the engine so you got access to and undo the power steering union.

Lift the engine out of the engine bay and slowly lower to the floor.

Remove the Gear box linkage by removing the exhaust cover plate underneath the car to reveal the cables

Into the car and take out the console to see the other ends of the cables and disconnect them from the gear stick two R clips (don’t drop them).

Remove the cables and refit the GT ones following the same route as the ST ones.

In the driver foot well right up underneath the dash there are two 10mm bolts holding the cable in I used a flexible socket extension to get up in there it took ages to undo them.

Remove the cable from the accelerator pedal and remove it from the car, replace it with the GT one by reverse fitting.

With the New engine and gearbox it’s sensible to at this time renew the clutch and the timing belt as they are so easy to do out of the car. Also change the oil filter, plugs etc while really accessible.

Swap the Exhaust down pipe and attach to the rest of the exhaust this is easier at this point to put it in.

Take the old engine off the hoist and attach the new one.

Engine mount

The right side engine mount has to be modified before you put the engine in. the are two black stickers covering the GT mounts position there is nothing behind them. Remove the stickers.

There are many ways you can make a fitment this.

If you drill holes directly under the new holes you can use a threaded bar and weld a nut onto one end and push the bolts through the mount and put a nut on the bottom on putting it in. this is what I did on (Celica nige’s car).

On the bulk head remove the same cover off above the loom hole, this is where you fit the ignitor. Also across the bulkhead there another sensor to be fitted to the bulkhead.

Raise the new engine and put into the engine bay

ensure the engine is at an angle timing case upper most and drop the gearbox under its mounting and lower it. Refit the power steering union at this point while the engine is in the air as access is hard when lowered.

Line up the rear engine mount, first whilst the engine can be moved around and put the bolt back in this is the easiest method.

Lower the engine in and then re fit the gearbox mounting the bolts are long and fit the long front to rear bolt first and raise the engine with the other part attached to the gearbox. You will have to wiggle the engine and box to line them up. When located slightly tighten the bolts a few turns leave this one loose for now.

Re fit the right engine mount to the engine and locate above the new holes. Drop your new bolts through and put a nut on each bolt.

The Front engine mount is easy to fit now just put the bolts back in you may have to remove it from the gearbox and re fit when in place.

Re fit the accelerator cable and gearbox linkage.

Re fit every thing you took off the car as above this time you got an ignitor extra.

I ve tried to think of everything and putting it all back together is easy now you stripped it out.

Now you need to

Go around the car and tighten up all the mounting bolts fully.
Connecting the fuel lines and re fitting the filter. (ensure they are the right way around) or you loose fuel out the breather pipe.
Refitting the clutch pipe work (and bled the clutch).
Re fit the Gear linkage (remember your R clips and locating clips).
Re fit the Radiator and pipe work.
Refill all the oils and the coolant.
Refit the drive shafts.
Rebuild the wheel stations. Fitting the GT brakes and ABS sensors. Re bleed the brakes.
Re attach the Down pipe.
Re fit the fuse box. With the new wiring loom.
Push the engine loom in to the car through the bulkhead and attach to the ECU and the ECU to the Car the same way you took it apart. Put the 10mm bolts back on.
Refit all the trim and interior you took out to get to the ECU and loom.
Refit the earth cables to the suspension legs.
Refit the battery and new air box.

Start the engine and allow time to tick over as you refill the coolant to get rid of the air bubbles.
Switch off and check the engine oil level.
Re start and allow the engine to get up to normal temp check the fan comes on.
Try the steering to the left and right to take up the fluid top up if ness.
Check clutch fluid to ensure its full.
Check brake fluid to ensure it full re bleed if required.

Run put the wheels back on and lower the car again. Try to drive it slowly to ensure the brakes and steering is fine.

I've just done this from memory and I may have (more than likely)forgotten something, so as I read it again and again expect an edit.

I hope this either frightens the death out of you or gives you the inspiration you need to do it.

This post has been edited by Rusty: May 7, 2010 - 3:52 PM

[AnaXyd]

Awesome! That was a great resource! Thanks!

[AnaXyd]

Is there any big difference between non-BEAMS and BEAMS? Like performance. The beams got like 30hp moar, but is this SO noticeable?

[BonzaiCelica]

Is there any big difference between non-BEAMS and BEAMS? Like performance. The beams got like 30hp moar, but is this SO noticeable?

it has 200ps which translates to 197 hp. Which in turn has 20 more hp than the 3rd gen 3sge. haha is the beams so much better than the non beams 3sge hell yea it is. Toyota wouldnt upgrade the 3sge for nothing. I mean 20 hp makes all the difference!!!!

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: May 15, 2010 - 4:19 PM

[AnaXyd]

Hmm, that sounds strange! But well, I think I have to go with a 3rd gen 3s-ge... THESE LAWS TODAY! HOPELESS!

[Rusty]

hmm Bonzai just wondering if you have seen this 3rdgen vs beams video? I dont think you'll be happy
EDIT: heres the video, hmm its actually not as good as I remember it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYKVL2UIiO0

yeah go 3rd gen 3s...and build it

This post has been edited by Rusty: May 16, 2010 - 3:27 AM

[njccmd2002]

The beams to be honest, really picks ups at 4000 rpm, by the time vvti kicks it. It does not have a quick start.

Its fun to rev at third gear and take it to 8000 rpm, there is the diference. 1st gear and second gear are ok, but its not a fast and furious car.... but way better that the 5sfe....

if you built up a 3rd gen, why just not get the turbo engien.

[AnaXyd]

Okay, so a non-beams can be good if you upgrade it a bit! That sounds great for me!

Well, the reason I dont go 3S-GTE is the laws in Norway. I want everything to be street legal, and if I want to put a 3S-GTE in my bay, I have to build it 100% the same as a GT4 car. That means, bigger brakes, 4WD and so on. And THAT is too much for me!

So, the only swap left for me, is the 3S-GE. Here I am left with a bigger brake upgrade, and thats all I have to do.

And BTW, the 7A-FE sounds like HELL with all the ticking! So I really want an engine that sounds better and perform better.

This post has been edited by AnaXyd: May 16, 2010 - 3:44 PM

[richee3]

My question to you is why does it matter if it's a 3S-GE BEAMS or not? I've read the entire thread and I understand that if you were to swap the BEAMS in then you would have to swap to Superstrut suspension and SS-III brakes and have essentially an SS-III replica. But... Couldn't you simply try to say it's just a 3S-GE and only do larger brakes? I'm pretty sure that whoever inspects the car won't know anything about BEAMS or Celicas in general. And odds are if the guy goes "Holy crap! BEAMS!" then he's going to be cool enough with you and pass the car anyway. It may be BEAMS, but it's still a 3S-GE engine.

[AnaXyd]

@richee3: You got a point there! And I was thinking about that. But then I got afraid of all the problems the ST swap would bring (if it is so much difference from GT?), and I am now searching for a LHD 3S-GE front cut...

[SwissFerdi]

If I remember correctly, the BEAMS swaps much more easily into a GT. Why not find a spare GT to swap some parts over? I think OEM GT axles work, so there's one headache taken care of.

[AnaXyd]

I was thinking of getting a front-cut BEAMS, so that I have all the parts needed. But I saw that there was some problems of aligning the engine in a ST engine bay, which makes axles and such dont fit?