Stage IV (final stage for my SS-Four), Update: July 24th. Options

[malpaso]

One year after "Great SS-Four rebuild" (http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=78088) was finished I left my car in my mechanic's hands again to start fourth and final stage of my car's build. Goal has two parts:

a) check everything on the car after 12 months
b) just slightly push car higher in terms of power (+20%)

When I have my car back I plan just add some "unnecessary weight" and DONE! All finished.

It has begun!
What I can share now with is just the most important - new parts ready to install

Bigger injectors...



Bigger - custom build/modified - turbine (enlarged housing, enlarged wastegate, polishing, etc...)







stay tuned...

This post has been edited by malpaso: Jul 24, 2012 - 3:08 AM

[kurt95gt]

Cant want to see this one all done

[azian_advanced]

ooh this is gonna be good..

[richee3]

I can't wait for the dyno results

[malpaso]

Cant want to see this one all done

Me to . This must end one day

ooh this is gonna be good..

Thanks mate!

I can't wait for the dyno results

In fact this is not much hunt for more (or even max) power. As I said expected gain is like 20% (so get to rounded 400HP what is not much for setup I have). For me this is more about gaining durability of engine and eliminate any possible risk of failure. For example what made me shocked is fact that turbine had plastic bearings???!!! PLASTIC!



Can you believe this is an standard for turbine capable up to 500HP??? That engine must keep working under all circumstances and be reliable for my favorite long trips. Anyway. This time will dyno happen without my presence so no pictures or videos as last time .

[Tigawoods]

Good luck!

[SwissFerdi]

I'm awaiting the results with great eager. So tell me, since the rebuild, how does second gear going up-hill feel, Martin?

This post has been edited by SwissFerdi: May 24, 2012 - 8:11 AM

[azian_advanced]

interesting.. it must be made of some sort of thermoplastic capable of holding its shape at high temperatures.. although it probably only gets as hot as the oil flowing through it. maybe they went with plastic because it's lighter? therefore, quicker spool up?

[malpaso]

Good luck!

Thank you! I will keep you all posted.

I'm awaiting the results with great eager. So tell me, since the rebuild, how does second gear going up-hill feel, Martin?

You bet I will. My plan is to test it on San Gottardo on the way back home

interesting.. it must be made of some sort of thermoplastic capable of holding its shape at high temperatures.. although it probably only gets as hot as the oil flowing through it. maybe they went with plastic because it's lighter? therefore, quicker spool up?

Really do not know mate... but since I saw this video I'm glad they are away . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcmWcqXCvrg

[malpaso]

Update: May 30.

Damn it was so close...



And here it is fine as well (I'm so glad having those slim fans already installed)

[enderswift]

holy crap

[kurt95gt]

Would you like some motor to go with that turbo

Oh wait i see it its that little thing bolted on behind the turbo lol

[delusionz]

it looks like a knock-off gt2876r, would be interested to know what the spoolup is like on that, i have the gt2860rs i get spoolup starting at 2200rpm with over 1bar available from 2800rpm.

Everything i've heard about the 2871 and 2876 is that for the extra 20 - 40 HP over the 2860, they dont spool up any usable boost until 4000rpm!

Also, i had a major problem with overboosting, the wastegate on the T28 housing is far too small for a 3sgte, so i had the internal gate hole ported out to 1mm less than the flap itself. and then what happened? even with the adjustable actuator arm tightened up i lost alot of response, my disco potato was no longer a spool monster!! -- anyhow, i had the hole filled up completely and had the path inside the turbine housing smoothed out and went to a massive 44mm tial external gate, now, finally, it works how i want it. have my cake and eat it, spool monster AND controllable boost!! yay

i suppose in this case it doesnt matter if it overboosts, with those 800cc injectors you're probably running 1.4bar as your low setting hahaha

[malpaso]

To delusionz: In fact I can dive you one picture to compare GT2860RS and my new piece .



Since it is really custom build one I can only guess what result will be (in terms of spool rpm and range). So let's be surprised lately . Anyway overboost was one of many reasons for custom work.

To kurt95gt: you have absolutely no idea how scared I was it will not fit...

To enderswift: lol... my reaction was the same when I saw the picture (cuz because of circumstances I have not seen the turbine my self yet)

This post has been edited by malpaso: Jun 1, 2012 - 4:01 AM

[delusionz]

Makes the disco potato look pathetic, keen to hear the results. I may have to get myself a 2876 compressor and housing

This post has been edited by delusionz: Jun 1, 2012 - 6:56 PM

[malpaso]

Update: June 13.

Nothing much to share now... just as works continues more and more things are too small, too short and nothing fits...





...so there is always something like proper size of hose missing in garage or some other tweaks are needed.



That is why I can focus on small - not that much power related - tweaks . Like spacers:



Sparco racing harness:



Or some fancy dress for turbine :

[SwissFerdi]

Martin, you keep on surprising with good things - I've never seen a turbo cover like that. Pretty cool. Those look like...35 or 40mm spacers?

[RabidTRD]

Wont that large of a turbo = massive lag?

[delusionz]

Wont that large of a turbo = massive lag?

It's a GT28R based turbo, T28 is alot smaller than CT26/CT20b turbos. The compressor on this is a 2876 (or equiv) which is pretty much the same compressor on the larger GT30R (3076). this means a power output AND spoolup somewhere in the middle. the GT28R is known to spool well before 3000rpm and the GT30R is known to spool before 4000.

So yes, the boost threshhold under 4000rpm will be lower than what you're used to with a GT28R and even the CT20b, _BUT_, the ball bearng centre cartridge means that the turbo will boost to its full boost threshhold as soon as your foot goes down, theres no response lag and theres no spoolup delay like the time it can take a journal bearing turbo to change from 40,000rpm to 140,000rpm for example is responsible for probably about 500 engine rpm of lag

[delusionz]

put simply, 2 GT4's, one with stock CT20b the other with this GT2876R , if you both dropped down and had a rolling start race from 3500rpm, the GT2876R equipped car will chew up and spit out the CT20b powered car right from the very first moment the accelerator pedal sinks.

a race from 2500rpm they would still start even, then boost kicks in and the GT2876R powered car will make 2 or 3 car lengths the moment 4000rpm comes around

[malpaso]

It's a GT28R based turbo, T28 is alot smaller than CT26/CT20b turbos. The compressor on this is a 2876 (or equiv) which is pretty much the same compressor on the larger GT30R (3076). this means a power output AND spoolup somewhere in the middle. the GT28R is known to spool well before 3000rpm and the GT30R is known to spool before 4000....

Thanks mate. I would not described that any better

Martin, you keep on surprising with good things - I've never seen a turbo cover like that. Pretty cool. Those look like...35 or 40mm spacers?

It is heat sink cover made of titanium fiber and has plenty advantages . Those spacers are not that big as it seems. For rear it is about design and front it is more about function (I need some space there ).





This post has been edited by malpaso: Jun 14, 2012 - 2:56 PM

[dliverance]

Talk about clearance!

[malpaso]

Update: June 20.

Small step by small step... but again more close to result: custom made 3" front pipe ready to go



So with already installed HKS exhaust it gives for whole of length full 3" diameter at last.

[Sunny]

Hi,

great to see you forward your project, what shoult be the end result of stage 4?

greetz

[malpaso]

Hi,

great to see you forward your project, what shoult be the end result of stage 4?

greetz

Hi Alex. Result should be "finished car" as I always wanted it = perfect Celica from my point of view. No more upgrades. No more plans. Just done at last.

[Sunny]

Hi,

got it, and after the finish we do a further meeting

greetz

[Wolf_tm]

it looks like a knock-off gt2876r, would be interested to know what the spoolup is like on that, i have the gt2860rs i get spoolup starting at 2200rpm with over 1bar available from 2800rpm.

Everything i've heard about the 2871 and 2876 is that for the extra 20 - 40 HP over the 2860, they dont spool up any usable boost until 4000rpm!

This is an hybrid based on a real Garrett GT2876R, and it has a quite different behaviour from the pure GT2876.


Malpaso, today I had the last test around home before the final mapping on the dyno, and with the latest map
I made on street, the peak boost is at 3800 rpm in 3rd gear, so probably I will gain other rpm when mapping to MBT on dyno in the next days.
As I told, that's so much better than a normal GT2876R I tested on a friend's ST205 that had peak boost at 4200 rpm.

Definitely WAAAAYYY better than GT28RS that, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, is quite a wrong turbo for a street 3SGTE, as it gives no more power than a CT20B.... but it is my first choice on my 3SGTE-RAV4!

[malpaso]

Who is this? Who is this mean-secrets-spoiling-person .


Thanks for update mate . Now is really only last thing to do: final dyno mapping session! I hope it is available to use soon and my suffer is at last over .

[delusionz]

Cant wait to see the PHAT 4" intake you're going to have, right?

[malpaso]

Update: July 24.
At last can share the news. The dyno day date is fixed! So can count loooong days till result is tested in Swiss Alps .



Gotthard Pass - Wikipedia link (and try to make few pictures there). Stay tuned

[SwissFerdi]

Enjoy those Alps for me mate.

[malpaso]

Enjoy those Alps for me mate.

Will do my best mate . True is you are... yes... the only one person who could be able to compare difference between OEM 3SGTE SS-Four and this final result...

[SwissFerdi]

Will do my best mate . True is you are... yes... the only one person who could be able to compare difference between OEM 3SGTE SS-Four and this final result...

On some of the same roads, no less! Hopefully there will be a next time and I can give my "experienced" opinion.

The only thing that matters is if second gear is enough now.

This post has been edited by SwissFerdi: Jul 25, 2012 - 8:52 AM

[malpaso]

As some of you already know my car is back home because at last dyno was available this month... So the good news!



It was pretty hard because ambient temperature was 50°C (122°F) and took whole 8 hrs... Unfortunately despite superb job of Wolf_tm I have not climbed over 400HP as wished. That temperature was really killing... also idea to not use high octane fuel reached its limits (what was my fault because I did not wanted to be "slave" of only one fuel seller in my country cuz only Shell in CZ has and will have in the future high octane racing fuel for sale). So plan is in two months pass one more tuning (when ambient temperature is lower and with bit better fuel) and we will see what we will see . There are no mechanical limits to get there. Just tropic temperature and crappy fuel were only limits to get what I expected .

Still no need to be sad at all because:
- today is car mapped and ready to handle the worst fuel I can even imagine and will running safe for ever (even under crazy weather conditions) = what is more than everything.
- below 3800RPMs is car like little rumbling peaceful lamb () that takes 7.9 liter per 100kms (29.8 miles/gallon !!!). What is crazy...
- above 3800RPMs car turns to a beast... its huge change! When you hit 3800 it pushes you to the seat and continues up to red-line! When pushing the car to the limits it takes 13.1 liter per 100kms (18 miles/gallon) that was in fact also average consumption of my old 7AFTE . So in terms of this I'm double happy.

So overall impression is great and I'm happy having it back even as is because it is already different car that was four months ago. Thanks Wolf!

[SwissFerdi]

What's the number you ended up making? Torque?

But wow, 50C is hot even for Italy!

This post has been edited by SwissFerdi: Aug 20, 2012 - 7:16 AM

[Batman722]

Great news martin, great news.

[Box]

Is it sad I got excited over the 29.8mpg? Awesome work!

[delusionz]

that takes 7.9 liter per 100kms (29.8 miles/gallon !!!). What is crazy...

DAMN. I'd need around 12-13 liters to get 100kms

good work, withholding the power output i see. Tell us xxx HP @ xxxx RPM @ xx PSI w/ xxx RON

wont judge and doesn't speak poorly, i doubt im getting much more than 250awhp from my setup atm,

i expect with something over 1.2bar on your setup, you atleast have 320-340 awhp which is not bad at all


edit, ps: you may have a 400hp compressor, but im sure that t28 housing wont flow that much (less than ct20b/ct26 even) and you may need to go gt30 exhaust side and/or external wastegate , i think this may be holding back your top end. did you have the t28 housing enlarged with a die grinder? may help (at cost of spool).

a large external gate is a good way to gain flow at the top end without adversely affecting spoolup. i had my internal wastegate filled up with weld and grinded back smooth from the inside with the old gate door welded on to hold it together

This post has been edited by delusionz: Aug 20, 2012 - 6:59 PM

[malpaso]

DAMN. I'd need around 12-13 liters to get 100kms

For me it was shocking as well because expected exactly the same as you wrote... anyway I believe I did not do any mistake in measuring because had chance to test it in many driving conditions and did always the same thing. It started with full tank (that full I saw level of petrol inside filling pipe). Than:

Driving absolutely randomly (city, highway) in speed range 50-130 km/h (31-80 mph) 267 kms (166 miles) that again took full tank as before and filled 27.9 liters (7.4 gallon) = 10.4 liters per 100kms (22.6 miles/gallon).

Driving in the mountains, twisty roads a lot of acceleration (full throttle), road elevation 12%, etc. 292 kms (181 miles), again full tank as before and filled 41.3 liters (10.9 gallon) = 14.1 liters per 100kms (16.7 miles/gallon).

Driving between cities/villages in speed range 40-80 km/h (25-50 mph) 154 kms (96 miles), to full tank filled 12.2 liters (3.2 gallon) = 7.9 liters per 100kms (29.8 miles/gallon).

Driving highway only in speed range 120-160 km/h (75-100 mph) 571 kms (355 miles) and to full tank it was 63 liters (16.6 gallon) = 11 liters per 100kms (21.4 miles/gallon).

So as you can see that consumption is really variable and depends on driving style.

good work, withholding the power output i see. Tell us xxx HP @ xxxx RPM @ xx PSI w/ xxx RON

wont judge and doesn't speak poorly, i doubt im getting much more than 250awhp from my setup atm, i expect with something over 1.2bar on your setup, you atleast have 320-340 awhp which is not bad at all

Honestly I would like to share with final numbers only. Now I just feel bad for my stupidity of using that low octane fuel so not taking it as "final result" at all... I should read about octane ration more before making conclusion "map it for 95RON". Anyway you are not far from truth . It is obvious you have own experience with setups like this .

Reason was as I mentioned we have 95RON as basic fuel here (in US i believe it is called "91" because rating is displayed in AKI not as in Europe or Australia). Some petrol stations offer 98RON (94 in the US) and just Shell and OMV (that is leaving CZ market btw) offers racing 100RON (96AKI). Price today is like 1.75 per liter ($5.50 per gallon), 1.90 per liter ($7.19 per gallon), 2.10 per liter ($7.95 per gallon), for 95-98-100RON fuel. As you can see my motivation to use 95RON only was big .

So since 95RON is really crappy fuel I decided to do one small trick with fuel on next dyno session. Mix half 95RON and half 100RON (or lets say 60% 95RON, 40% 100RON) to get something like 97RON fuel (93AKI). Car will be tuned to the maximum with this mixture and than used with 98RON only. That means I will have some kind of "fail-safe" when pushing car to the limits and gain expected power.

edit, ps: you may have a 400hp compressor, but im sure that t28 housing wont flow that much (less than ct20b/ct26 even) and you may need to go gt30 exhaust side and/or external wastegate , i think this may be holding back your top end. did you have the t28 housing enlarged with a die grinder? may help (at cost of spool).

a large external gate is a good way to gain flow at the top end without adversely affecting spoolup. i had my internal wastegate filled up with weld and grinded back smooth from the inside with the old gate door welded on to hold it together

Not sure... you can compare:

ct20b
turbine A/R 0.35
compressor A/R 0.36

ct26
turbine A/R 0.50
compressor A/R 0.70

my baby
turbine A/R 0.86
compressor A/R 0.70

Anyway thinking about it overall more and more is better having 10-20HP less and run for 100.000-200.000 kms more for me... so definitely will not want map it higher than is safe for it.

[delusionz]

ahhh .86 housing. it is more machined out than what i have .64 housing

[NYp8tBaller07]

Have you thought of E85

[delusionz]

theres no point tuning for a fuel thats hard to get. we have the same thing in New Zealand,

BP Ultimate and Mobil 8000 are 98RON which are available only in a few scattered areas in the big cities, everywhere else in the country has 95RON.

Most aftermarket ECU don't do open loop ignition control with knock input. -- and even more dangerous with the larger turbo and higher power output.

I understand that Martin wants his car to be reliable anywhere in Europe he wishes to drive without having to drive around with a large drum of petrol in the back seat.

PS. 800cc injectors not big enough for E85, they'll max out way before his turbo even reaches half it's capable boost

[NYp8tBaller07]

Gotcha didn't know E85 was hard to get there. Its everywhere over here.

[makis]

Good car Martin !.More pics...for final 3sgte??and with car...??