400+ hp daily driven? Options

[Arturio55]

Has anyone here daily driven a 3sgte swapped celi with an s54 tranny that was 400hp or more?
Swapping very soon and im gonna build it up next year...this is my only car so just want to know my limits.
Personal experiences only, not "well I read on alltrac.net ......"
although direct links to other websites about this topic will be acceptable.
im gonna have stock internals, MAYBE the street brawler turbo kit from KO in the future, if i cant reach my goal with the ct20b

[Box]

Try starting out with the stock 250hp or so, then go up from there in small increments so that way you find out your limits and minimize the risk of something happening.

This post has been edited by Box: Nov 13, 2014 - 1:26 PM

[jordisonjr]

Daily driving any vehicle with that much power will probably give you problems at one point or another, You just have to be prepared to be out a car for a short period of time.

[richee3]

Azncelica has 433 whp. I don't know if it's daily driven but he abused it and the trans held up until his most recent track day.

[Arturio55]

Try starting out with the stock 250hp or so, then go up from there in small increments so that way you find out your limits and minimize the risk of something happening.

Dont wanna keep adjusting things and hitting a dyno over and over again. I want to build it, and just boost off into the sunset at 400 hp. I want to scare the hell out my passengers

Daily driving any vehicle with that much power will probably give you problems at one point or another, You just have to be prepared to be out a car for a short period of time.

Driving any car, with power or not, will give you problems sooner or later. But cars are meant to be driven. I mean, really whats the difference between 250 and 400. I should be fine

Azncelica has 433 whp. I don't know if it's daily driven but he abused it and the trans held up until his most recent track day.

Gonna check out his profile. I wont be abusing it at all, other than the occasional 3rd gear highway pulls. I do want to be able to go from a roll to 30mph damn near instantly tho, so that city driving is fun

[Box]

You have to learn how to walk before you can learn to run Paul Walker.

This post has been edited by Box: Nov 13, 2014 - 8:02 PM

[Arturio55]

You have to learn how to walk before you can learn to run Paul Walker.

Lol well ill be driving it stock for at least 6 months. Maybe wire the IC pump to run constantly then over time ill turn the boost up until it stops making power.

[malpaso]

400HP at FWD without any electronic? I believe you really should try stock 3SGTE power first. Not to test driving skills but behavior of the car under several conditions (rain, snow, dry tarmac, dirty road... Etc). Especially when you want it as daily drive = you need lot of take offs and cornering from time to time .

[Arturio55]

400HP at FWD without any electronic? I believe you really should try stock 3SGTE power first. Not to test driving skills but behavior of the car under several conditions (rain, snow, dry tarmac, dirty road... Etc). Especially when you want it as daily drive = you need lot of take offs and cornering from time to time .

Lol ill get plenty of practice while I save up for a hydra nemesis.. I might do the swap next month or january depending on weather. Praying for a 60F degree day to do the swap, which seems to be practical given the weird winters we've had in new jersey the past couple years. Ill be driving the 3s from january through like april, MAYBE May, depends on if I get other mods before the hydra. And dont worry I put like 3000 miles on my car each month, sometimes a lot more (I have girls all over the east coast lol). Plenty of time to adapt to the power and learn how to control it. Im a pretty great driver to begin with.

I just want to make sure the stock internals can handle 400hp for a couple years. Eventually ill get a quaife LSD installed in my s54, maybe a whole trans rebuild while its open.

This post has been edited by Arturio55: Nov 14, 2014 - 9:35 AM

[bsamps4]

I wouldn't recommend stock internals for 400hp...And the headache of removing a stock 3SGTE that you just put in to add forged internals seems a bit of a waste. I'd forge from the start. The s54 isn't much good over 330-350 at the wheels. For your power goals an e-153 and forged internals are the best advice I can give.

[Arturio55]

I wouldn't recommend stock internals for 400hp...And the headache of removing a stock 3SGTE that you just put in to add forged internals seems a bit of a waste. I'd forge from the start. The s54 isn't much good over 330-350 at the wheels. For your power goals an e-153 and forged internals are the best advice I can give.

Not to sound like an a** but I know that already. My question is if anyone here has done it. If they did, I want to know their results and opinion. Don't need advice, I've done 2 years of research and I plan on forging eventually....but I would rather have as much fun as I can before I absolutely need to blow money and install forged rods and pistons. The car will be tuned so it may not be completely necessary

[richee3]

Get in touch with Tao for sure. He has a great deal of experience with getting his car to the 400 hp point. He's pretty active on Facebook, if you are on there. DEATH here on the forum has a lot of experience with the subject as well but he's not very active so you may have to wait on his reply.

[Box]

One thing you haven't mentioned, how many miles are on the 3S-GTE?

[Arturio55]

Get in touch with Tao for sure. He has a great deal of experience with getting his car to the 400 hp point. He's pretty active on Facebook, if you are on there. DEATH here on the forum has a lot of experience with the subject as well but he's not very active so you may have to wait on his reply.

Can someone get me a link for this Tao guys facebook?

[Arturio55]

One thing you haven't mentioned, how many miles are on the 3S-GTE?

Havent even picked it up yet, i plan on going to JDM engine depot in new jersey on december 8 or 9. Ill get the best pick of the litter.

I do already have a spec clutch kit, gt4 intercooler pump and heat exchanger, map sensor, new water pump, and various other things ill need for the swap

[mkernz22]

You'll be pushing your luck with the ct20b. I know around 19-20psi is it's limit. However, that's not something you should run at constantly with that turbo.
I believe around 19psi on ct26 would put down around 325hp-ish

[Arturio55]

You'll be pushing your luck with the ct20b. I know around 19-20psi is it's limit. However, that's not something you should run at constantly with that turbo.
I believe around 19psi on ct26 would put down around 325hp-ish

Which is when I get that street brawler turbo kit I mentioned in the original post....

[cardshark525]

From a roll to 30 almost instantly is a curious statement. You'll get there... on the speedometer... lol

First and second gear (and I have an E153 not S54 so I have much longer gears), anything over 4,500 rpm WOT and I have tire spin. In 2nd that is now 5,000 rpm since I got new tires (about 200 miles on em, 225 wide General AS-03's love them).

You really can't "blast off" until you're in 3rd gear, and with the S54 you still might spin, especially with 400 WHP.


That being said I know you will enjoy it, whether roasting tires or not.

[Arturio55]

From a roll to 30 almost instantly is a curious statement. You'll get there... on the speedometer... lol

First and second gear (and I have an E153 not S54 so I have much longer gears), anything over 4,500 rpm WOT and I have tire spin. In 2nd that is now 5,000 rpm since I got new tires (about 200 miles on em, 225 wide General AS-03's love them).

You really can't "blast off" until you're in 3rd gear, and with the S54 you still might spin, especially with 400 WHP.


That being said I know you will enjoy it, whether roasting tires or not.

Lmao @ the first sentence. Yea I know wheel spin is bad, will only be MUCH worse at 400.. but from a roll it might be eliminated if I install an LSD and poly bushings all over the suspension parts (I already have coilovers, stiffer than a **insert punchline here**)

[cardshark525]

From a roll to 30 almost instantly is a curious statement. You'll get there... on the speedometer... lol

First and second gear (and I have an E153 not S54 so I have much longer gears), anything over 4,500 rpm WOT and I have tire spin. In 2nd that is now 5,000 rpm since I got new tires (about 200 miles on em, 225 wide General AS-03's love them).

You really can't "blast off" until you're in 3rd gear, and with the S54 you still might spin, especially with 400 WHP.


That being said I know you will enjoy it, whether roasting tires or not.

Lmao @ the first sentence. Yea I know wheel spin is bad, will only be MUCH worse at 400.. but from a roll it might be eliminated if I install an LSD and poly bushings all over the suspension parts (I already have coilovers, stiffer than a **insert punchline here**)

I've got coilovers, E153, LSD, running 13 PSI on aftermarket turbo... it's still bad lol.

From a roll or not, at low speed the torque will win over anything you could throw at it unless you're ganna rip apart your wheel wells and throw like 255's or wider summer/track/drag tires up front.

Maybe if your EMS can, set it up to run less boost at certain speeds if possible?

This post has been edited by cardshark525: Nov 15, 2014 - 2:13 AM

[Box]

That's what SAAB did with their turbo FWD cars, limited the first 2-3 gears with more power on each gear until max power was released. I can't remember where exactly I saw it, but there's a way to setup something similar with an aftermarket solution.

[bsamps4]

Two years of research is a lot different than two years of experience. I speak from experience, and some of the others responding to you on this thread do as well. We are only trying to help, and set you in a safe direction for YOU, your CAR, and your POCKET. We would hate to see your dreams of 400hp daily driven go up in flames because you didn't accept valid advice, and damaged the engine beyond repair or overhaul for your forged internals. There wouldn't be accepted methods for your horsepower goals if nobody had failed at it in the past. Some of your comments to other members in this thread may be viewed as snide or know-it-all-like. One day you might need our help again, and your cries for help may fall on deaf ears.

[4-eyed-freek]

A bolt on 3sgte is very much underrated. When I first rode in my car as a passenger I was taken away, along with my friend that was with. I have always been around fast cars, I'm in no way saying this is ballistic but it will break the tires loose with awd. I agree with everyone else, just get used to it. I understand you want to get used to it with all the power but the 3s is already a tower of power.

[Arturio55]

Ok I understand and see everyones point, traction, forged internals, safety blah blah blah. I know all of that, not saying anyone is wrong. but none of that is relevant

My question is if anyone has daily driven a 3sgte swapped celica that was pushing 400hp or more. If so, then I would like to speak to them personally

Its like if I asked you what one plus one is and you say "well arturio thats a good question but first we have to speak about the difference between negative and positive integers...and do you really need to know one plus one? Isnt just one enough? Whats the unit of measure? Whats the density of the things you are adding together"

In other words....I just want an answer to my question. You guys are like carlton on that episode of the fresh prince when they went on that game show


**edit**
if im gonna just blow up my car or mess up the engine or whatever may happen...then cool let me learn my lesson. Then next time this question is asked by someone, I can give my input and for the first time ever on 6gc.net, someone's question will receive a direct answer

This post has been edited by Arturio55: Nov 15, 2014 - 12:20 PM

[Box]

Alright, you're on your own. Have fun blowing up an engine that cost more than your car.

[richee3]

I guess I see things a bit differently than most people on here. You want 400 whp, I want you to have 400 whp. I think that's a little too much for a FWD street driven car, but SRT4's and Cobalt SS's do it all the time and I've seen Tao's beast in person, that thing is NUTS. Traction will be an issue, but LSD and damn good tires will help. And if 400 is too much, you can always turn the boost down. There aren't a lot here with that much power, so it'll be hard to get the answers you're looking for, but we have a lot of cookie-cutter builds around here (which are great! don't get me wrong,) but if someone wants to try something new then I'm all for it.

[Arturio55]

Alright, you're on your own. Have fun blowing up an engine that cost more than your car.

Oh ill have tons of fun.
if anyone else is curious tho, I will have quite a few supporting mods. In the original post I did say I would build up the engine. Only reason I didnt post everything here is because this isnt a mod list or "my project" post.
but I will have a hydra nemesis, prob bigger (880cc?) injectors, water injection, a turbo upgrade (maybe the street brawler kit) and other little things. Hell, I might go ahead and do forged internals but you negative nancys irritate me so much and make me want to use the stock internals out of spite. So we'll see. I dont wanna tear down the engine unless I get a daily car and actually have an entire week to myself to tear it down and rebuild it.

If all hell breaks loose then so be it. When Einstein was designing the atom bomb, they thought it would set the atmosphere on fire and destory earth. Yet the american government dumped billions of dollars into the project which was successful and they slaughtered a bunch of japanese people. Just like im gonna slaughter a bunch of japanese cars. (No offense to anyone of japanese orientation....dont worry I hate my government passionately)

Anyways....still, have this many comments and views, nobody has answered my original post

I guess I see things a bit differently than most people on here. You want 400 whp, I want you to have 400 whp. I think that's a little too much for a FWD street driven car, but SRT4's and Cobalt SS's do it all the time and I've seen Tao's beast in person, that thing is NUTS. Traction will be an issue, but LSD and damn good tires will help. And if 400 is too much, you can always turn the boost down. There aren't a lot here with that much power, so it'll be hard to get the answers you're looking for, but we have a lot of cookie-cutter builds around here (which are great! don't get me wrong,) but if someone wants to try something new then I'm all for it.

Thank you. You deserve a grammy award my good man. The support is appreciated more than you know. Ill do my best and be sure to document my progress.
do you have a link for anything on Tao's build?

This post has been edited by Arturio55: Nov 15, 2014 - 1:17 PM

[richee3]

Oh, my bad. I forgot to link you to Tao.

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=10000...ource=typeahead

[Arturio55]

Oh, my bad. I forgot to link you to Tao.

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=10000...ource=typeahead

Just contacted him. Lol looks like he has the streetbrawler kit I plan on getting, so I guess im on the right track

[mkernz22]

You'll be pushing your luck with the ct20b. I know around 19-20psi is it's limit. However, that's not something you should run at constantly with that turbo.
I believe around 19psi on ct26 would put down around 325hp-ish

Which is when I get that street brawler turbo kit I mentioned in the original post....

I fcking know what you said, all I was doing was letting you know what the limit of the ct20b is because you won't be able to reach your power goals with it.

[Arturio55]

You'll be pushing your luck with the ct20b. I know around 19-20psi is it's limit. However, that's not something you should run at constantly with that turbo.
I believe around 19psi on ct26 would put down around 325hp-ish

Which is when I get that street brawler turbo kit I mentioned in the original post....

I fcking know what you said, all I was doing was letting you know what the limit of the ct20b is because you won't be able to reach your power goals with it.

Lol calm down man

[BonzaiCelica]

lessen wheel hope with custom made spherical bushings, or find the inner diameter and necessary measurements for the mcpherson control arms and source one from another vehicle that an aftermarket company made spherical bushings for, or install superstrut suspension

[Arturio55]

lessen wheel hope with custom made spherical bushings, or find the inner diameter and necessary measurements for the mcpherson control arms and source one from another vehicle that an aftermarket company made spherical bushings for, or install superstrut suspension

I was planning on getting poly bushings from that dude in poland.. and I already have coilovers so screw the super strut lol
although I do wish I went with my original plans to swap a beams in. Couldve gotten a front clip with lsd and superstrut for 1450 shipped but decided to go this route instead based on power goals and accessibility of parts. That damn beams is too rare

[mkernz22]

lessen wheel hope with custom made spherical bushings, or find the inner diameter and necessary measurements for the mcpherson control arms and source one from another vehicle that an aftermarket company made spherical bushings for, or install superstrut suspension

I was planning on getting poly bushings from that dude in poland.. and I already have coilovers so screw the super strut lol
although I do wish I went with my original plans to swap a beams in. Couldve gotten a front clip with lsd and superstrut for 1450 shipped but decided to go this route instead based on power goals and accessibility of parts. That damn beams is too rare

I wouldn't go near superstrut, that stuff is way too expensive to maintain.

This place right? http://gt4-racing.eu/index.php

This post has been edited by mkernz22: Nov 16, 2014 - 6:29 PM

[Arturio55]

lessen wheel hope with custom made spherical bushings, or find the inner diameter and necessary measurements for the mcpherson control arms and source one from another vehicle that an aftermarket company made spherical bushings for, or install superstrut suspension

I was planning on getting poly bushings from that dude in poland.. and I already have coilovers so screw the super strut lol
although I do wish I went with my original plans to swap a beams in. Couldve gotten a front clip with lsd and superstrut for 1450 shipped but decided to go this route instead based on power goals and accessibility of parts. That damn beams is too rare

I wouldn't go near superstrut, that stuff is way too expensive to maintain.

This place right? http://gt4-racing.eu/index.php

Yes. Gonna get control arm bushings and some new endlinks..might get tranny mount inserts from kirkosaurus

[richee3]

Just throwing this out there but the BEAMS is NOWHERE near the "pain" that people think it is. Normal wear items are readily available here in the States and extended wear items like the timing belt and cool packs do take a little time to order from Japan, but they're also easy to keep an eye on and order well ahead of time. That being said, 3S-GTE is still the way to go!

[Arturio55]

Just throwing this out there but the BEAMS is NOWHERE near the "pain" that people think it is. Normal wear items are readily available here in the States and extended wear items like the timing belt and cool packs do take a little time to order from Japan, but they're also easy to keep an eye on and order well ahead of time. That being said, 3S-GTE is still the way to go!

Lol then maybe once im done with this build ill find an auto GT with a blown engine and drop a beams in, then just daily that one.
and yes I said auto. All my friends are too lame to learn how to drive stick, so sometimes finding a designated driver is damn near impossible. Also I take a lot of trips to far places, so maybe I wanna sleep and have a friend drive instead.

Anyone have any idea if its possible to install a steptronic shifter and tranny from a newer car and run it off some weird standalone ecu? Not that I want to im just curious. I know the new corollas have a 5 speed auto tranny with paddle shifters...or was it 6 speed?

[malpaso]

Arturio55... From what I read in this topic you already know everything you need. So I am afraid you really can not get more from here. To your question: Is here anyone who has 400HP as daily driver? (based on 20 years old car with 20 years old engine). I believe is not (but I can be wrong... I am here 10 years - true - but am not active poster anymore. Anything could change meanwhile). Why?

1) put 400HP to FWD (in terms of technology 20 years old) car and make it daily drive is stupid idea. In real world you need to corner (from time to time) not just drive straight. Front wheels need to be able to steer in first place. Not mentioning tarmac is not always perfect dry to get all power from wheels to the road. And when I say 400HP I talk about REAL power. Not some impossible fakes I read about in some topics here. I know how much REAL power can handle stock 3SGTE injectors, I know how much boost can engine internals handle... Read through some UK forums .

2) build such a car (and running it more than few miles) cost money. Insane amount of money. You have no idea... (If I knew 5 years ago how much I pay in total I would not do it at all).

You no need to "lol" to what I wrote (what you will do for sure anyway because you have own opinion on things and you believe it's only true) - sure. Have it. Only what has left to share is:

- I had FWD Celica with GT-four power as daily drive (so far from 400HP). It was real power on wheels. Tuned on Dyno. And it was not not that funny as I expected (more scary than funny).
- I have now my second Celica (because I learned from mistakes it is GT-Four) let's say with power you aim to. I paid $35K in total and it took 5 years finishing it. I found limits of stock 3SGTE engine. And learned effective power is not just about engine... engine has now 25k miles on clock. And still perfectly running (proof of well job done).

I had my lesson. Now is your time .

This post has been edited by malpaso: Nov 18, 2014 - 3:51 AM

[4-eyed-freek]

Could not have been said better ^^^

[Arturio55]

Malpaso, thank you for understanding that I do actually know what im talking about... some of the other members must think im some stupid kid.
secondly, yes I know itll be hard to control. Im hoping the lsd, coilovers and poly bushings will help control that.
Also, no im not gonna "lol" at what you said. I know its sort of ridiculous to throw 400hp at a fwd car. Thats why I asked if anyone has done it, I wanted to know if it was practical at all. I wanted to hear about personal experiences. To my understanding, Tao has done it and did it well. Thank you for your input also.

Im gonna try to build that power reliably. If its too much (which it most likely will be) then ill just keep the boost at a low setting...maybe get an electronic boost controller with multiple maps. And ill try to tune it so that it accesses that power in the high rpms, that way I can just keep a light foot while city driving.

I know ill be throwing a lot of money into it. But we don't have gt4s in the USA. I have considered getting a 5th gen alltrac, but they only pop up once in a blue moon. Very rare. Maybe in the future ill try to do an awd conversion. Ive done my fair share of research and seen pipes car, Czwalga, and a couple other attempts. If I ever get the money ill experiment.

I want to thank everyone who was friendly and actually tried to help and answer my question. I know everything I need to know about building an engine/suspension. Just wanted to know if anyone was able to build a practical fwd 400hp celica. Ill take my chances and let the 6gc world know how it turns out

[jordisonjr]

Malpaso, thank you for understanding that I do actually know what im talking about... some of the other members must think im some stupid kid.
secondly, yes I know itll be hard to control. Im hoping the lsd, coilovers and poly bushings will help control that.
Also, no im not gonna "lol" at what you said. I know its sort of ridiculous to throw 400hp at a fwd car. Thats why I asked if anyone has done it, I wanted to know if it was practical at all. I wanted to hear about personal experiences. To my understanding, Tao has done it and did it well. Thank you for your input also.

Im gonna try to build that power reliably. If its too much (which it most likely will be) then ill just keep the boost at a low setting...maybe get an electronic boost controller with multiple maps. And ill try to tune it so that it accesses that power in the high rpms, that way I can just keep a light foot while city driving.

I know ill be throwing a lot of money into it. But we don't have gt4s in the USA. I have considered getting a 5th gen alltrac, but they only pop up once in a blue moon. Very rare. Maybe in the future ill try to do an awd conversion. Ive done my fair share of research and seen pipes car, Czwalga, and a couple other attempts. If I ever get the money ill experiment.

I want to thank everyone who was friendly and actually tried to help and answer my question. I know everything I need to know about building an engine/suspension. Just wanted to know if anyone was able to build a practical fwd 400hp celica. Ill take my chances and let the 6gc world know how it turns out

I've got a solution for you.

Scrap this idea of building 400hp, and buy Tao's car! He just posted a thing on the 6GC facebook page the other day he was thinking of selling.

[Arturio55]

Tao didnt accept my fb request yet lol...either way im sure he'll be charging more money than it would cost me to build my car the way I want it. I dont have 5 or 6000 bucks. Even if I didnt I wouldnt be able to spend it all at once. With my build ill be buying things over time. Engine next month, then 4 months later standalone ecu, then soon after new turbo kit. Hopefully in between all that I can get bodywork and paint done

[Nial]

I saw once a FWD celica with a played with 3SGTE, not sure how many BHP it had but it was more than standard, I believe it was more or less a daily driver so it has been done, what it was like to drive and live with God only knows.

It will certainly be an interesting challenge that's for sure. 400bhp in an AWD Celica is interesting enough.

If it goes bang after 200 miles, as long as you are prepared for that then so what!!!!! You will learn a valuable lesson, make changes and try again, as long as you have patience, learn from your lessons and have pretty deep pockets it will be a fun journey.....but also take advice from people who have been down this road, not many have but it may save you from spending a lot of money you may not need to. Also don't fixate on a number, the last thing you want to do is chase BHP figures as it will almost certainly end in tears one way or another. If you don't have deep pockets then I would think again, it won't be cheap and if things do go south and you can't afford to fix it, it will all be for nothing and very frustrating. Hardly anything on a 3sgte is cheap....apart from the scrap value.

Going from my experience I would do a straight swap with a standard 3sgte engine, run that for a while and see what you think, it might not be the way you want to go, but you will learn about the engine, and perhaps be able to better guide yourself as to which modifications would work best. Even just changing the ECU to a fully mappable version can make such a difference to a car. I managed to get near to 340BHP with an ECU, hybrid turbo and boost controller, & 1.3 bar , the engine was otherwise completely standard. That was more or less the limit of the injectors, managed to clock up 235,000 miles like that, over 100,000 of those at 1.1 to 1.3 bar. FWD will certainly place less strain on the engine which will help things last. Also if you have big BHP available dosnt mean you have to use it, you could have a daily setting and a weekend setting on the ECU. What ever you decide I hope it goes well.

[Arturio55]

Thanks for the input, and for understanding that im prepared for the outcome, whatever it may be.
lol of you can daily 340 at over 1 bar for over 100000 miles then im sure 400 will last almost as long, if not longer, if its tuned right.
I dont have deep pockets but im not too materialistic. Honestly I LOVE my car but if it blew up (although the chances of this have to be 1 in a thousand..im sure it would throw a rod before any catastrophic happened) I would salvage what I could then just buy another. Not like im doing anything else with my time/money.
I live at home with mom and sister. Only bill I pay is internet, and the various traffic tickets im paying off. I can afford a mistake or 2.

Also yea I think the hydra ems has more than one map, even if I dont utilize that I can get an electronic boost controller. Some of those have 3 or 4 maps! Plus the scramble setting. Im gonna build a 400hp car no matter what. Daily driving it is a different story. If its too hard to control then cool, ill just daily it at 250 or 300, then turn up the boost when the occasion calls for it.
Also ill make sure to keep a fire extinguisher in the car lolol

[richee3]

You might want to look into EMS's that allow boost by gear as well. First gear with an S54 will be useless on a stock 3S, much less 400 hp.

Also, link to Tao's possible FS post.

[Arturio55]

You might want to look into EMS's that allow boost by gear as well. First gear with an S54 will be useless on a stock 3S, much less 400 hp.

Also, link to Tao's possible FS post.

hes asking for a great price. Maybe as low as 3500?! Thats insane bc hoping he gets back to me asap to give me his mod list

This post has been edited by Arturio55: Nov 19, 2014 - 6:47 PM