2ZZGE on a 6GC? Options

[CelicaDICE]

So, has anyone ever thought about a 2ZZGE Swap? I thought about this for two years now(but will not do it because of how strong my 5SFE is, but might attempt to do so when my car turns 20) and was wondering how difficult can it be? And I'm talking about an AT 2ZZGE too.

[mkernz22]

[Jmk91]

Look under the swap sticky. 3gste is a much easier swap and a MUCH better choice.

[HaysoosKreesto]

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1311

[mkernz22]

Better off with a beams swap.

[boostordie]

The 2ZZ is worthless and weak. We put GEN4 3sgte's into a bunch of 6 gens. They are awesome and a great value for dollar since they don't require a lot of parts to work in the 6 gens. If you are interested check us out at www.primemr2.com. Have a great day.

[Box]

Since you want to stay automatic go with the 1MZ out of a Camry, it'll be the cheapest and most worthwhile of the lot to do. The BEAMS with an auto would be just like the 2ZZ-GE with an auto, gutless. I'm not even sure they made a 3S-GTE with an auto, and if they did it'd be hard to find. That leaves the 1MZ with an auto that's a dime a dozen here.

[Smaay]

Ill keep it to myself.

[CelicaDICE]

Since you want to stay automatic go with the 1MZ out of a Camry, it'll be the cheapest and most worthwhile of the lot to do. The BEAMS with an auto would be just like the 2ZZ-GE with an auto, gutless. I'm not even sure they made a 3S-GTE with an auto, and if they did it'd be hard to find. That leaves the 1MZ with an auto that's a dime a dozen here.

Hmmm...Yea, I've seen lots of 1MZ Camrys in my life. And when you say 1MZ, I'm assuming you mean the ones that came from 96' Camrys? Cause I know the 96' Camrys share some parts with my Celica when it comes to the 5S-FE.

[mkernz22]

The most cost effective thing would be to get a Redtop Beams engine with an auto ECU and transmission. Just do minor tuneup on it and it's plug in and play. I think there's only 3 wires you have to move, but it's all documented.

[CelicaDICE]

Alright, I would take a look at the 3S-GE after Im done with the final exterior changes that I am currently working on. Really appreciate your feedback on the matter of this subject, 6GC fellas!

This post has been edited by CelicaDICE: Feb 19, 2015 - 7:40 PM

[JoshuaM]

I'm generally all for BEAMS swaps, but for an automatic transmission I think the power delivery of the V6 or 3S-GTE suits better.

The 3S-GTE did come in automatic - not in the Celica, but in the ST246 Caldina GT-Four (there was in fact no manual available).

The BEAMS would be the easier of the swaps though.

2ZZ does not have the torque to get a 6GC going, and would be far too much hassle.

[Box]

So there ya go, go with the Caldina 3S-GTE then. That or the 1MZ, which was the V6 in the Camry, ES300, Sienna, Avalon, and a few other models during that stint from '94-03 or so.

The 2ZZ with an auto doesn't have the torque to get a 7GC going either and weight differences are negligible between it and the 6GC.

This post has been edited by Box: Feb 19, 2015 - 11:23 PM

[Bitter]

What's kind of messed up is that a 7G 2ZZ auto is as slow as a 6G 5S manual. No joke, they're nearly a dead heat on the road rolling race. The 7G will pull away in lift a little but the 6G will creep slowly very slowly and the 7G will pull away in lift again but once you're in 3rd the gearing and wind resistance would probably put the 6G ahead but you're talking about speeds around 90mph by then.

And LOL the 6G and 7G weigh nearly the same as someone else mentioned.
2ZZ isn't weak, but it is higher strung meaning there's already some good power coming out of it so cranking more out stresses the engine more, however with just bolt ons and tuning they're belting out 200whp (40whp gains) reliably. This notion of weakness came from people shattering oil pumps missing shifts at full throttle and 8,500 RPM shooting the engine to well past 10,000 RPM and well past what any engine on the street can tolerate, exotics of course the exception. It's weakest link are the high compression (11.5:1) pistons which are built for NA use and do so well but fail under the stresses of moderate boost. Can't really fault that since in a high revving engine you need to have relatively light pistons. The engine weighs very little so the power to weight is fairly good, much better than the S series. That being said the Beams has a better torque curve due to the added displacement, but it also is a heavier engine than the 2ZZ. The 2ZZ is listed as a 253lb dry engine by Toyota, the 3S-GTE is listed as 421lbs but I don't know if that's dry or wet weight.


Anyway, the 2ZZ is backward from the 7A and 5S, the mounts aren't even close to the same locations. Go with what's know to fit easily and has a fat wide torque curve starting off down low, go with the 1MZ swap! All the torque from when yous stomp the gas pedal, weighs as much as a S series engine, and will play nicely with an automatic transmission. Pretty just transplant the Camry harness, engine, transmission, and ECM into the car right from a junk yard donor.

This post has been edited by Bitter: Feb 20, 2015 - 12:23 AM

[Smaay]

^^^ im pretty sure the 7th gen is much lighter than the 6gen. 6th gens were about 2700 lbs and 7th gen were about 2500

[Box]

The ST 6th gen and GT 7th gen are 2,400 give or take, GT 6th gen is around 2,550 and the GT-S 7th gen is around 2,500. Exact numbers are on Edmunds, but I don't feel like looking up exact numbers for the minute difference. Point is the driver and the crap they're hauling makes more a difference than the cars themselves.

Now a 6th gen convertible is probably in the 2,700 ballpark, but that's not really relevant.

[Bitter]

Auto GTS with leather and sunroof is like 2,600 or so. Pretty much the fattest of the 7th gens and it keeps up with a GT 5psd 6G. I know you all love your cars but Toyota really dropped the ball with the North American engine choices.

[Box]

My god did they ever. *insert cutscene from some 22 years ago in Japan and translated to Engrish for your convenience*

Toyota CEO: Well men, the pubric seems to rove the sporty new rook you've given the Cerica. I courdn't be more preased with your efforts. Now what do we have in mind to move our eregant creation?

Toyota engineers: Thank you esteemed chairman. For the home market and European market we have pranned the 3S-GE as our entry engine, and our most technorogicarry advanced 3S-GE, the BEAMS, for our top front wheer drive moder, and an awe inspiring arr wheer drive 252 horsepower force using our 3S-GTE.

Toyota CEO: Very good. What for the North American market.

Toyota engineers: We hate them, just use engine from Cororra and Camry. *evil laughter*

Toyota CEO: *holds pinky to mouth* Most excerrent *evil laughter*

[Bitter]

I think the 3S-GTE and Beams would have pushed the 6G out of it's price segment and put it up against the American pony cars of the period and it would have lost out badly. They had to keep the price depressed to keep sales to keep the Celica alive. Sad but true.

Young to middle aged women don't buy Celica's because they're fast, they buy them because they look good.

This post has been edited by Bitter: Feb 20, 2015 - 2:01 AM

[BonzaiCelica]

ZZT231 SS-II spec celica (with superstrut) = 2513 pounds

ST202 SS-III spec celica (with superstrut) = 2667 pounds

difference = 154 pounds

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Feb 20, 2015 - 2:03 AM

[Box]

That's ok, Mazda did the same thing with the Miata. I mean come on, look how cute it is.

The 7GC has PlaySkool interior though, and if it wasn't for that and the lighter drivetrain it'd weigh more than the USDM Celica. I'm curious as to why the ST202 weighs 100 pounds over the ST204 though.

[Bitter]

Which is roughly the difference between a 2ZZ-GE and a 3S-GE engine weight. A stroked 2ZZ in a 6G with a 6spd would be a fun car, or even a stock turbo'd 2ZZ or a 2ZZ with some drop in 10.5:1 pistons and a turbo. Enough compression to make power off boost but dropped enough to tolerate some good boost with an easy tune.

Yes, the 7G interior quality and materials are not nearly as nice as the 6G, but the same is true for all the other sporty coupes around the same era as well sadly. I'd love a V6 6G as a daily and highway cruiser to be perfectly honest. If I had one more spot in my garage I'm pretty sure I'd have a good lower mile GT with a busted engine torn apart right now.

[Box]

I wouldn't mind a 1MZ 5-speed 6th gen for a daily at all either. Quick, efficient, practical, and all around nice quality car. The only thing to nitpick on is the drivetrain layout, but suspension and tire wizardry and driving technique can eliminate any perceived weakness anyway.

Yep, the early 2000's sucked for just about every car interior quality wise. Everyone was just catching up to the 4th gen F-body.

[Smaay]

My god did they ever. *insert cutscene from some 22 years ago in Japan and translated to Engrish for your convenience*

Toyota CEO: Well men, the pubric seems to rove the sporty new rook you've given the Cerica. I courdn't be more preased with your efforts. Now what do we have in mind to move our eregant creation?

Toyota engineers: Thank you esteemed chairman. For the home market and European market we have pranned the 3S-GE as our entry engine, and our most technorogicarry advanced 3S-GE, the BEAMS, for our top front wheer drive moder, and an awe inspiring arr wheer drive 252 horsepower force using our 3S-GTE.

Toyota CEO: Very good. What for the North American market.

Toyota engineers: We hate them, just use engine from Cororra and Camry. *evil laughter*

Toyota CEO: *holds pinky to mouth* Most excerrent *evil laughter*

dude that is freaking funny!!!!


back to the 2ZZ, like i keep saying every time this comes up. it wont fit. without serious modification. the exhaust is on the backside and there steering rack is right there. you would have to fab up some crazy header to get the exhaust out of the way. the 2ZZdoesnt make any torque. Its is flat out not the engine of choice to install.

[Box]

All this tells me is the 6th gen pretty much is the best generation, at least for the transverse drivetrain generations anyway.

[BonzaiCelica]

the super strut adds 30-35 lbs plus maybe another 3-4 pounds each caliper since its twin piston and perhaps another 15 lbs because of the Helical LSD. But even best motoring and several sites list 1210kg for the SS3

[Box]

So, should be 60 pounds more at most. Hmm....if the SS-III came standard with the moonroof that'd account for the rest.

[BonzaiCelica]

So, should be 60 pounds more at most. Hmm....if the SS-III came standard with the moonroof that'd account for the rest.

no the one tested on best motoring had no sunroof. i dont remember that being an option on ss-III

[Box]

Unless the 3S-GE weighs 40 or so pounds over the 5S-FE. I don't know why this is bothering me so much.

[njccmd2002]

again. again and again. trololo.

but its fun to see everyone with their panties up in a wad.

Yes you can do the swap, but you will be on your own. no one has even bothered. So it will all be on you. spend a couple grand for not a whole lot gains.