where the doctor go Options

[Dr_Tweak]

It's unlikely that I'll ever completely stop doing swaps, be it fulltime or parttime.

-Doc

[lagos]

yeah your right , but i have a feeling that this is one of those projects that would end up with its share of hidden costs, dont you think? seems to me like almost anything that you swap into a car will almost always end up costing at least 4 grand when the project is done.

This post has been edited by lagos: Feb 7, 2007 - 10:39 PM

[celica47]

I was talking with K-ESD... and with the tranny from the solora youre looking at a 1k and then what ever the engine costs. PLus the hidden costs like lagos said. But i personally think that the swap is a little more reliable considering you dont have boost, the engine is coming from either a mini van or a solara which arent "Hard Driven" cars.

[Dr_Tweak]

No need to use a Solara tranny with a V6 any more than the 300+hp 3SGTEs that we deal with all day long. The GT tranny will work just fine. But yes, there are still some hidden costs that will come up, but we plan for them. $4k is a minimum number for a V6 swap, I suspect it will be more like $5500 to $6000 into an ST when you add in the costs of the GT tranny, axles, mounts, etc. And if you're auto, then you also have to add in the conversion.

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Feb 7, 2007 - 10:43 PM

[lagos]

4k is a minimum number for a V6 swap, I suspect it will be more like $5500 to $6000 into an ST when you add in the costs of the GT tranny, axles, mounts, etc. And if you're auto, then you also have to add in the conversion.

so, how is that cheaper then a 3s swap?

This post has been edited by lagos: Feb 7, 2007 - 10:45 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

4k is a minimum number for a V6 swap, I suspect it will be more like $5500 to $6000 into an ST when you add in the costs of the GT tranny, axles, mounts, etc. And if you're auto, then you also have to add in the conversion.

so, how is that cheaper then a 3s swap?

A full 3SGTE swap into an auto ST, including a full timing belt/reseal/tunup, quality custom front-mount intercooler install, performance clutch, good engine set, tranny, axles, mounts, performance clutch, downpipe, auto/manual conversion and full install runs just short of 7k including labor. And the labor is only $1800 including the custom intercooler install and clocked turbo.

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Feb 7, 2007 - 11:03 PM

[lagos]

dang

[Batman722]

4k is a minimum number for a V6 swap, I suspect it will be more like $5500 to $6000 into an ST when you add in the costs of the GT tranny, axles, mounts, etc. And if you're auto, then you also have to add in the conversion.

so, how is that cheaper then a 3s swap?

A full 3SGTE swap into an auto ST, including a full timing belt/reseal/tunup, quality custom front-mount intercooler install, performance clutch, good engine set, tranny, axles, mounts, performance clutch, downpipe, auto/manual conversion and full install runs just short of 7k including labor. And the labor is only $1800 including the custom intercooler install and clocked turbo.

-Doc

just so we're all clear

roughly
$7K + (with full exhaust) for a st185 3s swap

and

$6K or so for the V6 swap

edit: this would be swaps for auto STs, correct ? what about the cost of M/T GTs keeping the s54 ?

This post has been edited by Batman722: Feb 7, 2007 - 11:21 PM

[easternpiro1]

tune up was included?

[illneversellmyce...]

and the most important question
i need to read up again

horse of 3rd gen 3s 255, 4th gen 260, then you boost in stuff yadda yadda

whats the horse of the v6 stock say a ......3mz

This post has been edited by illneversellmycelli: Feb 7, 2007 - 11:24 PM

[snapshotgt]

Okay, I feel as though I’m called to post in this thread before too many people start jumping on this idea because it is "cheaper than a 3sgte", and the general info being provided about this swap.

My car is currently undergoing a V6 swap. I'm not personally swapping it, but I KNOW nevertheless what it takes financially and physically to do a proper V6 swap into our 6th gens.

To start, here is a quick, small quote from the guy who is swapping my engine. He is 33, and has been working on Toyota engines for many years, his experience needs to mean a lot to anyone serious about this. He is personally working on this swap, and knows what is takes. Period.

forget about using 5sfe tranny .. mr2 guys breaking these trannies and it is half ass anyway.. just get a proper solara tranny with rear st205 mount .. all st205 if possible .. use poly mounts as well to keep the motor solid b/c torque will make engine move and hit rad .. use st205 shifter cables as well ..

Many of you need to consider the amount of money you end up investing into this swap -- don't you want it to be done correctly the first time? Did V6 Solara's come from the factory with 5s trannies? No. Yes, it costs more up front, but in the long run WILL save you money. You can ask many MR2 V6 swappers, and they will tell you the same.

I'm not going into specific prices of parts, running totals etc, but I can tell you Doc's quote is NOT accurate for a proper V6 setup. Doc, this is nothing against you, just posting a fair and balanced representation of this swap for everyone here. I don’t like to see people being mislead about what a proper V6 swap requires.

I'm sure the person working on my car, and HAVING FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with this swap will chime in on this subject.

And for everyone who asks, you will see a thread with MANY pics, and good detailed info about this swap in the near future -- in addition, how it should be done.

Teaser:


This post has been edited by snapshotgt: Feb 8, 2007 - 1:05 AM

[illneversellmyce...]

now that's bling lol....still wanna know the est horse, i haven't heard of anyone dynoing yet but what are u expecting snap

i like this thread most action ive seen on 6g in a few weeks, haven't been bored tonight

This post has been edited by illneversellmycelli: Feb 7, 2007 - 11:53 PM

[snapshotgt]

For HP numbers, and more info -- you can look here:

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=45161

We should be able to squeeze out some more horses with major exhaust and intake upgrades.

This post has been edited by snapshotgt: Feb 8, 2007 - 12:02 AM

[Dr_Tweak]

tune up was included?

Actually you're right, the tunup was not done on yours. Of course you have the MUCH newer 4th gen engine, but something I forgot to add to that list is the custom a/c and p/s lines and such.

and the most important question
i need to read up again

horse of 3rd gen 3s 255, 4th gen 260, then you boost in stuff yadda yadda

whats the horse of the v6 stock say a ......3mz

The MZ engines make from 190hp (early 1MZ) to what... 210, 220 for the 3MZ? And a little more torque than hp in each case.

Okay, I feel as though I’m called to post in this thread before too many people start jumping on this idea because it is "cheaper than a 3sgte", and the general info being provided about this swap.

My car is currently undergoing a V6 swap. I'm not personally swapping it, but I KNOW nevertheless what it takes financially and physically to do a proper V6 swap into our 6th gens.

To start, here is a quick, small quote from the guy who is swapping my engine. He is 33, and has been working on Toyota engines for many years, his experience needs to mean a lot to anyone serious about this. He is personally working on this swap, and knows what is takes. Period.

forget about using 5sfe tranny .. mr2 guys breaking these trannies and it is half ass anyway.. just get a proper solara tranny with rear st205 mount .. all st205 if possible .. use poly mounts as well to keep the motor solid b/c torque will make engine move and hit rad .. use st205 shifter cables as well ..

Many of you need to consider the amount of money you end up investing into this swap -- don't you want it to be done correctly the first time? Did V6 Solara's come from the factory with 5s trannies? No. Yes, it costs more up front, but in the long run WILL save you money. You can ask many MR2 V6 swappers, and they will tell you the same.

I'm not going into specific prices of parts, running totals etc, but I can tell you Doc's quote is NOT accurate for a proper V6 setup. Doc, this is nothing against you, just posting a fair and balanced representation of this swap for everyone here. I don’t like to see people being mislead about what a proper V6 swap requires.

I'm sure the person working on my car, and HAVING FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with this swap will chime in on this subject.

BS. Don't be angry because your swap is taking twice as long and costing twice as much because you cut me out of the deal, after all the TIME and WORK that I spent guiding you through how we would do it and finding out all the info for you (I have like 1000 emails in my inbox from you), not to mention the many phone calls I had to make to the guy you bought your engine from so that you ACTUALLY GOT IT.

For one, you're going with a FULL REBUILT 3MZ engine which had like 10k miles on it or whatever. That added a lot to the cost of your swap. Then, you were convinced that you HAVE TO use an E153 tranny, which is NOT TRUE. Let's not start this myth again. Consider the facts: There are dozens of 3SGTE swaps on this forum that are running 225 to 250 flywheel hp 3SGTEs. I've never seen a confirmed case where a near-stock 3SGTE damaged an S54 tranny. Then, consider the 4th gen 3SGTE that I swapped into easternpiro's car. He is running 260hp AT THE WHEELS, with a GT tranny, NO PROBLEMS. Fastbird, we're running his 2nd gen 3SGTE, modified and dyno-tuned to 250 WHEEL HP and 250 ft/lbs of tq, NO PROBLEMS. It goes on and on.

The most powerful MZ-series V6 makes what 220hp, 240 ft/lbs at the crank? That's about 190hp and 205ft/lbs at the wheels? Which is SEVENTY HORSEPOWER LESS and at least FOURTY-FIVE ft/lbs LESS than easternpiro's 3SGTE. Which the GT tranny handles NO PROBLEM. I'm talking about first-hand experience here as well. There is no doubt at all, that a GT tranny will have NO problem with even a mildly modified V6.

Then, since you're using an E153, you needed to order ST205 mounts from Japan, get some customized axles made, just to get the engine bolted in! Add the poly inserts (good idea, but not required), ST205 cables, etc....

Now listen, I'm NOT saying that you're not going to have a nice setup when it's done. Your setup is IDEAL. It's also the MOST EXPENSIVE way to do it. Most people aren't going to want to spend that much, nor are they going to have to. Let's consider how much a reliable, but less expensive 1MZ swap would be. Let's look at it from the perspective of a GT owner.

Before you go any further, keep in mind that these are all high-end prices. Don't fall out of your chair when you see how quickly quality parts add up! By reading further you hearby release 6gc.net, Dr Tweak, and their affiliates of any liability, should you fall out of your chair and land on your cat, or anything like that!

Used, low mileage (60k or less) 1MZFE engine set (OBD1, return-style fuel system) $850 HIGH END. You can score these engines CHEAP if you shop around and pull it yourself.
Flywheel for 1MZFE $250 (HIGH END)
Performance clutch kit $350 (HIGH END)
Custom passenger-side mount $150
Labor, at my shop SCC in Savannah, GA, for a FULL swap, $2000 (HIGH END)
Custom a/c and p/s lines $250 max
Custom y-pipe and FULL, CUSTOM-MADE MANDREL-BENT STAINLESS STEEL 2.5" exhaust, $950
Custom cold air intake (not required) $200
Misc items (fluids, fuel pump, filters, etc... let's add $900 to it here just to be safe $900

Right now we're up to $5900 MAX for V6 swap, including a bunch of stuff we don't HAVE TO have (like the stainless exhaust, CAI, etc). If you have an ST, you basically need to add the GT tranny, axles, and mounts, let's say another $1000 to be safe so $6900 MAX. If you have an auto, you need to add in the manual conversion parts and a little more labor, say another $600.

So, on the VERY top end of the scale here, we're right in the same range as a 3SGTE. If one really took their time shopping for parts and didn't go overboard with then that weren't really needed, then a swap could probably be done for around $4000 on the low end, including labor.

Let's do a 3SGTE swap real quick just for a good comparison (most of this is taken from my "3SGTE Swap Checklist" thread, but I'm updating some things)

Good 2nd gen 3SGTE Engine set $1500 ($1900 for a 3rd gen)
Shipping $350
Front-mount intercooler, piping, clamps, couplers $600 to $1000 depending on intercooler quality
Performance clutch kit $350
Aussie downpipe $350 shipped
Misc (Fuel pump, filters, fluids, etc) $600
Labor for swap, wiring, AND custom-install of front-mount and piping $1800
Full stainless-steel, mandrel-bent custom-built 3" exhaust system $950

Total basic 3SGTE swap into a GT $6500 to $7300

For an ST, add the GT tranny, axles, mounts, custom a/c and p/s lines, for an additional $1250 max, so total is $7750 to $8550. For an automatic, add an additional $600 for the manual conversion and parts.

Now again here folks, just like with the V6 swap we itemized, we're going HIGH end. You don't need to use the Aussie downpipe, many people opt for the cheapo-ebay one. And again, a full stainless mandrel-bent exhaust isn't required. The point is:

MOST ENGINE SWAPS WILL COST LESS THAN WHAT IS SHOWN HERE

But we want to make sure that we're comparing apples to apples. So comparing right across the board, V6 to 3SGTE, here's what we've got:

3SGTE basic swap: $6500
V6 basic swap: $5900 (difference $600)

3SGTE into ST swap: $7750
V6 into ST swap: $6900 (difference $850)

In each case, it's a good idea to do a full timing belt/reseal/tuneup of the engine right before it goes in, which typically runs about $850 for parts AND labor.

So, not really a big difference, but for the coolness of the V6 engine, plus rock-solid reliability and ease of maintenance, going the V6 route is a great idea and you STILL save a few bucks!

-Dr Tweak

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Feb 8, 2007 - 9:49 AM

[illneversellmyce...]

lots of info too busy at work i'll read again on lunch break lol


still right now the v6 looks like less horse but more realibility and cheaper

the 3s more exp and has the horse, ridden in eastern at 13 psi and love it, i know he can go higher too

so i'm at a dilemma here....it's ok i have a while to think

ok how much to turbo a v6 after the swap is complete
aight b4 people yell i'll look it up tonight , i ask too many questions lol

[snapshotgt]

This will be my last posting in this thread.

BS. Don't be angry because your swap is taking twice as long and costing twice as much because you cut me out of the deal, after all the TIME and WORK that I spent guiding you through how we would do it and finding out all the info for you (I have like 1000 emails in my inbox from you), not to mention the many phone calls I had to make to the guy you bought your engine from so that you ACTUALLY GOT IT.

^This is so distorted in many ways. I'm not angry at all, no clue how you infer that. I just presented some facts that others should know before you convince them to swap it half ass. Period. Also, business is business, I can have who I want swap my car, swap my car.

My swap is being done RIGHT, thus, collecting ALL parts takes longer, swap has taken longer. Common knowledge .. i'm not upset about it at all.

I have a problem with this quote:

For one, you're going with a FULL REBUILT 3MZ engine which had like 10k miles on it or whatever. That added a lot to the cost of your swap. Then, you were convinced that you HAVE TO use an E153 tranny, which is NOT TRUE. Let's not start this myth again. Consider the facts: There are dozens of 3SGTE swaps on this forum that are running 225 to 250 flywheel hp 3SGTEs. I've never seen a confirmed case where a near-stock 3SGTE damaged an S54 tranny. Then, consider the 4th gen 3SGTE that I swapped into easternpiro's car. He is running 260hp AT THE WHEELS, with a GT tranny, NO PROBLEMS.

1.) PLEASE DO NOT post info that you are just guessing at --> Like the cost of my rebuild. You do not have a CLUE what it cost me, so PLEASE DON'T post BS info like this.

Then, consider the 4th gen 3SGTE that I swapped into easternpiro's car. He is running 260hp AT THE WHEELS, with a GT tranny, NO PROBLEMS.

2.) Do you not call having a tranny rebuilt a "problem"? ..or any of his other tranny "issues" a problem ..or any of the other swap issues?

Quote from easternpiro1:

Well i get my car back from the shop FINALLY after getting the tranny rebiult (blocker rings were wobbling a bit and prevented me from going in reverse) a couple other things were wrong too... clutch was becoming burned out (after 3 months?) and the shifter cables were old. But anyway, im back in business until i start driving and notice that my car's acceleration ABSOLUTLEY SUCKS i look at my boost gauge and im only getting 5lbs WTF? so i call the shop back and they dont know anything about it. i call the good dr tweak and he confirms that it's what i thought: a boost leak I cant figure out where but it may be because they removed some IC piping and didnt put it back right, so back to the place i go, wish me luck!

Like i said, this is my last post. I'm not going to spend my time arguing about how to do a half ass V6 swap.

Last thought: Anyone considering doing a V6 swap -- research around the MR2 guys etc, and don't just get your info from one source .. consider the amount of money you're putting into it, and what you'll want out of of it.

This post has been edited by snapshotgt: Feb 8, 2007 - 12:59 PM

[Negative]

After reading this and looking at the facts - V6 is def not an option for me. Less HP by far unless you plan to turbo/SC and then here I am back at the FI'ing a engine that wasn't originally intended to be - again.
Sort of a waste of time - unless you are looking for a bit more HP without the boost headaches. Personally I'm addicted to boost and can't get back to Turbo quick enough for my tastes.
Seriously starting to think ST-205 swap now.

[Dr_Tweak]

This will be my last posting in this thread.

BS. Don't be angry because your swap is taking twice as long and costing twice as much because you cut me out of the deal, after all the TIME and WORK that I spent guiding you through how we would do it and finding out all the info for you (I have like 1000 emails in my inbox from you), not to mention the many phone calls I had to make to the guy you bought your engine from so that you ACTUALLY GOT IT.

^This is so distorted in many ways. I'm not angry at all, no clue how you infer that. I just presented some facts that others should know before you convince them to swap it half ass. Period. Also, business is business, I can have who I want swap my car, swap my car.

My swap is being done RIGHT, thus, collecting ALL parts takes longer, swap has taken longer. Common knowledge .. i'm not upset about it at all.

I have a problem with this quote:

For one, you're going with a FULL REBUILT 3MZ engine which had like 10k miles on it or whatever. That added a lot to the cost of your swap. Then, you were convinced that you HAVE TO use an E153 tranny, which is NOT TRUE. Let's not start this myth again. Consider the facts: There are dozens of 3SGTE swaps on this forum that are running 225 to 250 flywheel hp 3SGTEs. I've never seen a confirmed case where a near-stock 3SGTE damaged an S54 tranny. Then, consider the 4th gen 3SGTE that I swapped into easternpiro's car. He is running 260hp AT THE WHEELS, with a GT tranny, NO PROBLEMS.

1.) PLEASE DO NOT post info that you are just guessing at --> Like the cost of my rebuild. You do not have a CLUE what it cost me, so PLEASE DON'T post BS info like this.

Then, consider the 4th gen 3SGTE that I swapped into easternpiro's car. He is running 260hp AT THE WHEELS, with a GT tranny, NO PROBLEMS.

2.) Do you not call having a tranny rebuilt a "problem"? ..or any of his other tranny "issues" a problem ..or any of the other swap issues?

Quote from easternpiro1:

Well i get my car back from the shop FINALLY after getting the tranny rebiult (blocker rings were wobbling a bit and prevented me from going in reverse) a couple other things were wrong too... clutch was becoming burned out (after 3 months?) and the shifter cables were old. But anyway, im back in business until i start driving and notice that my car's acceleration ABSOLUTLEY SUCKS i look at my boost gauge and im only getting 5lbs WTF? so i call the shop back and they dont know anything about it. i call the good dr tweak and he confirms that it's what i thought: a boost leak I cant figure out where but it may be because they removed some IC piping and didnt put it back right, so back to the place i go, wish me luck!

Like i said, this is my last post. I'm not going to spend my time arguing about how to do a half ass V6 swap.

Last thought: Anyone considering doing a V6 swap -- research around the MR2 guys etc, and don't just get your info from one source .. consider the amount of money you're putting into it, and what you'll want out of of it.

Well the way that you're coming across IS angry, maybe you should look at how you came out of no where with guns blazing, in both the PM you sent me and your post.

The fact that you rebuilding your engine costed more than a used engine isn't a guess, and I do have clue. I know how much it costs to rebuild engines because I REBUILD ENGINES. So there you go.

easternpiro had to rebuild his tranny due to worn blocking rings, as he said. Blocking rings don't go bad because of horsepower, GEARS do. Now YOU'RE posting stuff that you have no clue about.

And you're REALLY one to talk about doing things half-assed. I have dozens of emails or chats from you asking if we can leave this or that part out, or not do this or not do that, or use a used part instead of a new parts, or cut this corner or that corner.

I do agree though, that anyone thinking of doing this swap should do a lot of research and talk to as many people as possible who have done it.

-Doc

[FORGMANN]

i am not going to turn this into a pickering thread just going to state a few things

Dr tweak and me disagree about how to build a swap be it 3sgte,1mz when it comes to tranny selection .. i understand the reason is cost but my reasoning for 97+ v6 manual is all the later v6 trannies as well as later model jdm mr2 turbo trannies come with beefier synchro's and mate right to a v6 with out issue and most are under 60k mileage .. now if i am going to spend 6k or even 5k why would i use a high mileage 5sfe tranny (in most cases)and risk have a problem develop only after you add a extra 100-140hp to the tranny .. will cost a lot more down the road to replace tranny then just save up and go with the solara/camry tranny or a 96+ jdm mr2 tranny .. we got a 40,000k 00' solara tranny in mint cond for $400 shipped from yard and it has all the holes to correctly mount in st205 mounts .. now dont get me wrong using this tranny will cost 800-1000 more than 5sfe but the pay off will come in the long term .. now you will need mr2 or solara rear jackshaft /all trac hybrid axles w/ mr2 dr side inner/ possible spacer on pass side and st205 cables and mounts but all this extra stuff we found for cheap and all parts are new or very new.
st205 mounts were easy to source from UK used and you only need the rear and possible top tranny mount.

My whole reasoning is this. May cost more now but will cost less in the long term .. Just because you want a fast motor dont hurry to do a swap like this without thinking ahead .. why not save a little more (plus motor will get cheaper over time) and spend money on tranny and proper parts .. if you want DR TWEAK to do swap that is great i am not saying not to just do research ..

we can debate all day on this topic .. to me it is just common sense.. i have seen time and time again people try to save money and on engine and body work end up spendng twice as much down the road or just selling car and losing a ton of money due to issues .. ..

snap didnt pay for rebuild of engine .. just for new bearings and a few other parts .. engine had 2k on it but sat so long got moisture on bearings i just rebuilt for free which is why he swap has taken longer ..

This post has been edited by FORGMANN: Feb 8, 2007 - 1:23 PM

[brianforster]

i mean the only factor you need to look at is how many satisfied customers who daily drive there swaps post on this board and others... the results speak for themselves, anyone claiming the doc doesnt do his work "the right way" is just trying to cause drama.

by the way, lagos has been putting down 230-250 WHEEL for close to like what 3 years now? as a matter of fact, ive only seen 1-2 people on this board break the s54 (non clutch related) i think the s54 is PLENTY for the v6, you know mr2oc isnt the bible, theres stupid people on every message board, infact probably more on mr2oc because theres more users. people can break things and it not have anything to do with the quality of the parts..

This post has been edited by brianforster: Feb 8, 2007 - 1:32 PM